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Old 09-02-2005, 06:18 PM   #26
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Aikido Journal

Mr. Atkinson,

Thank you for your participation in the thread. As is typical, my comments follow yours.

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
I have always taught Aikido for free but that is because I have always had a job. I am not professional in the Aikido business sense. But if I decided to make a living through Aikido, then I would have to becoime professional to earn enough to survive. There is nothing wrong with earning money in Aikido or any art. Go to Japan or Korea and you'll see that is what most are doing.
I, too, have taught Aikido for free, have traveled to Japan and other places to see how Aikido is being shared, and note here that my own personal aikido teacher, as well as several of my kohai have opened for-profit dojos. This thread is not a discussion of making money from teaching martial arts, nor a condemnation of anyone doing so. Please take a moment to read the more recent posts and if you like comment on the establishment of an Aikido Museum and the encouragement of those, like Aikido Journal, to donate the materials that document the Founder and his direct disciples.
Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
I don't seee AJ as commercialist - I see it as a source of good info and Aikido related products. I paid the subscription and enjoy the articles. It's normal - get over it.
Okay, so you don't see. Got it. Would you agree or disagree that there may be some potential conflict of interest where they openenly or otherwise support particular teachers, groups or organizations, and then market materials from those very groups just after they are pronounced worthy of such promotion by the site owners?

As for getting over it... Get over what? Care to be specific?



.
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Old 09-02-2005, 06:26 PM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: Creation of a permanent and public Aikido Museum

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Chris, I know I am not the first one to tell you this, but there is no competition in O-Sensei's Aikido... knowing that, I am not the least bit interested in competing with anyone, nor in others competing, nor promoting competition at all. For me that would defeat the promise of and what is available through Aikido. That very fact is what motivated me to begin this inquiry in the first place.
Well ok, then you're free to "participate" in the marketplace, if that wording is more acceptable.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
What this is about is the best way to preserve and make these limited and precious commodities available to the Aikido community as a whole, along with who should be, or how best to select a caretaker for these things. I believe that if there was an independent, unbiased group (unfortunately, due to their own potential conflict of interest, one outside of the Aikikai) that there would be motivation for people to come out of the woodwork and donate their materials to create a living legacy accessible to everyone, regardless of whether they could afford it or not..
You'll never get any group that's completely independent and unbiased, but one of my points was that there is nothing to stop anyone from forming such a group if they so wish.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Since you obviously have a problem with me I will take myself out of the discussion of the issue and ask "Do you see a problem with the idea of creating a permanent, publicly accessible and publicly controlled repository whose directorship is charged with establishing an unbiased center for the benefit of the Aikido community of today and future generations? If you do have a problem with it, please state what it is, and if so, to also take the time to state what your ideas are and how they are both an improvement on mine and the current situation that forces this conversation to come up in the first place.
As above, no (and I've never said that there was). But there's no reason why commercial groups can't exist as well (and vice-versa).

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Chris, I think it pretty clear by now that I don't mince words. I am clear and straight to the point, although I do sometimes soften my words in an attempt not to offend. If I wanted to imply stealing, I would have said stealing, cut and dry, as I did with those responsible for stealing my copyrighted logo. Of course, I was banned for asking on Aikido Journal if that was okay with others in the Aikido community, but that is only a peripheral issue, and not the main thrust of this thread.

As for your implication, I can't possibly know who gave permission, nor the reasons why permission was given, nor the circumstances under which it was given, nor the monetary arrangements, if any between the parties. I am very interested in knowing these things, but alas, try asking and see where you get. If you do get anywhere, please let us know. If you believe, as do I, that you wouldn't get very far, then at least step up and give us that much by reporting this back to the thread.
It wasn't an implication, it was a question. It's without question, historically, that Morihei Ueshiba participated in commercial ventures, and he or his representatives gave exclusive and non-exclusive permission to others for commercial ventures. Your statement implied not only that he didn't give permission, but that he woudn't have, which seems hard to prove to me, seeing that the historical record is so clear.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-02-2005, 09:07 PM   #28
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Re: Aikido Journal

Hi All,

I think Shaun has already said several times that he is not referring to the right or need to make money, etc. If I may Shaun, I think Shaun is referring to an integrity issue of sorts and of how such issues might relate to the overall good of everyone involved. Or at least this is the first issue, if I understand what he is saying correctly, that leads to all the other issues that should probably concern us.

However, or regardless of what else might be involved, I just do not see the integrity issue here. Is there some evidence of this historical bias or is this just the philosophical bias that goes with every subjective position? Is there some evidence of a different history that AJ is trying to hide or keep silent about for the purposes of selling its goods? Is such a history there to be seen in their archives, seen by all if they would simply get out of the way? That is a quite a charge, and that is quite a different charge from saying that every position comes from a particular point of view. Indeed, the former charge would indeed lead others astray, and most likely be very determined by less than noble motivations (e.g. financial), and thus would indeed be something that could be solved by the suggestions you are making. However, the latter problem is not only not something that can be solved by having free access (since every position would be from a particular point of view but objectivity would not be anything to be held above it all -- as in some aspects of the French press for example), it might not even be a problem at all. In addition, it certainly cannot lead to the things you are suggesting since the market has its own checks and balances and also because there are other resources out there -- which AJ does not own and which are equally relative to Aikido history.

I guess that is what I would need to see an example of: An example of a history that is found within the sources AJ has at its disposal but that AJ seeks to hide from us (deliberately or as a result of its financial pursuits) AND that cannot be gleamed by any other collection of sources found outside of AJ. Is there such a thing? If so, you may be right. If this is not so, this may just be a kind of "witch hunt" -- where everything is right but for the first premise (which everything else happens to be grounded upon).

Thanks in advance for any reply.

Kindest regards,
dmv

Last edited by senshincenter : 09-02-2005 at 09:10 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 09-03-2005, 01:39 AM   #29
crbateman
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Re: Best case scenario for the preservation of Aikido Materials

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Clark, I would be interested in knowing what you see as the best case scenario for creating and managing a permanent and public archive where Aikidoka and prospective or interested parties would be able to go and view all the available materials - a place unencumbered by the opinions of academics and the like, whether they be with or without financial motivations.
Shawn, this is a very noble aspiration. But, if it's so darned easy, why don't you do it? I'll tell you why. Because you are far too intelligent to spend a lifetime and a swimming pool full of sweat gathering all the history and information you can find on a particular subject, and then just giving it away in anonymity to everyone without so much as a whisper about what your opinions are. The place you are describing above is called a "library", and libraries cannot and do not support themselves. You speak of a place "unencumbered by the opinions of academics". It's those very opinions that give rise to thought and further learning. That's why I go there.

As for "cronies", I have seen Stan Pranin reach out to many individuals who both share and oppose his personal opinions, because he felt they had something substantive to say about the aiki arts. I have also seen representatives of so many different Aikido systems given a fair forum. I have seen senior instructors of Yoshinkan, Aikikai, Iwama, and countless other styles brought together to teach side-by-side in the spirit of harmony at the Aiki Expos. I have seen discussions online with Ki Society people, and unbiased coverage of Tohei Sensei and his considerable history and influence in Aikido; that same history that some would seek to have stricken from the official record.

Despite the inevitable, and often mean-spirited, criticism that Stan gets about it, I have seen "newcomers" and "unknowns" in the Aikido world given a fair opportunity to prove themselves on center stage, much the same as Johnny Carson would give time on his show for unknown comics to display their talents. Stan tries to speak to the future of Aikido, but without losing sight of the past.

If I understand correctly, you say that he is entitled to his opinion, as are we all, and that he is entitled to earn a living, which also goes without saying, but that he should not do both in the same place. Why not? If you don't want to hear his opinion, go elsewhere. And if you aren't interested in his merchandise, do likewise. What I see here is kind of like a person who goes into a store, sits in the middle of the floor, complains about the product selection, and the outfit the shopkeeper is wearing, all the while posturing about having the right to occupy that particular spot on the floor. I hope you have better things to do, and I KNOW you have more deserving people to criticize than Stan Pranin. I have learned much from him. I don't regret it. I'm out.
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:09 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido Journal

Another point to consider over financial matters is that AJ actually allows many other folks to advertise their goods there - folks that definitely have their own take on things but that may meet the Journal's view of history in some kind of objectivity (which is different from a conspiracy to deceive). The last two books I got on Aikido, by Shioda and Sunadomari, came to my attention through the Journal. This has to be considered along side works that come to our attention via the book review blogs, etc. It's very hard to paint the Journal as some sort of "corporation" that confuses folks in order to sell its goods. You don't see any corporations out there acting as a platform for the goods of other folks - especially if such a thing is supposed to support their monopoly over information.

I have a feeling, one that is supported by experience, that if someone could come up with a more accurate history (with the support of reliable sources, etc.), the Journal would adopt it as its own position. This is not a problem for it. Why? Because the Journal's main interest is to supply as accurate a historical interpretation (as unbiased) as possible. For example, once, when I first heard of the Journal's encyclopedia, and Stan didn't know me from Adam, I wrote to him to correct something he had written down under T.K. Chiba's entry (I was training under him at that time). He took a couple of days, verified what I was saying, and then asked if I would be kind enough to write the entry for him. I have a feeling that the Journal's historical interpretations are actually made up of many folks' own interpretations (as long as they can be verified historically). As I said before, the Journal is more a hub for information than any kind of real platform of authority. With something like that, in my opinion, one is going to need some very good reasons, with some very real evidence underlying it, to feel that support (moral, financial, service, etc.) is not warranted.

It's like this forum as well - we know what it is, we know what it does, we know it takes money to run, we should all be supporting this forum with our membership. Yet, a lot of folks don't have stars by their names. For me, it's hard to figure out why?

David M. Valadez
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Old 09-03-2005, 03:40 PM   #31
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Re: Aikido Journal

IMHO, everyone has their own idea as to what is right for Aikido. Everyone has a right to their own idea.

If I personally agree with you, I might just think you are right and good. if I don't personally agree with you, I might just think you are wrong and bad.

I personally don't agree with everything that just about anybody does, but its their right, I just don't agree and it doesn't mean that anything or anyone is right or wrong, good or bad.

Personally, I don't think Stan makes enough for all he does for Aikido. I have gladly paid his (IMHO) reasonable prices for a look at history I can find nowhere else. Deepest compliments, appreciation, and gratitude.

Between Aikido Journal and the Aiki Web here, I have learned a lot and met a lot of pretty great people.

If they are all going to Aikido-hell, then that's where the best training will be, and count me in.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:12 PM   #32
crbateman
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Re: Aikido Journal

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
If they are all going to Aikido-hell, then that's where the best training will be, and count me in.
Lynn-san, I'll be there with most of my friends... We'll be glad to see you!
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Old 09-04-2005, 09:24 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido Journal

AJ is a valuable resource for the community.

However at times (when Expos are due) it is far too commercial and the staff become too aggressive.

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Old 09-04-2005, 03:29 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido Journal

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
However at times (when Expos are due) it is far too commercial and the staff become too aggressive.
I can understand how you might feel that way, but you might not realize the very high cost (most of which must be paid in advance) of putting on such an event. A bad turnout could be financially disastrous. I think if you had so much riding on speculation, you, too, might become more "aggressive". I know I would. And perhaps "aggressive" is not the best choice of words. Spammers are aggressive, because they come after you and invade your privacy. AJ simply promotes via their website, which is perfectly within their rights.
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Old 09-04-2005, 09:13 PM   #35
SeiserL
 
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Re: Aikido Journal

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
However at times (when Expos are due) it is far too commercial and the staff become too aggressive.
Having had the privilege of attending all three Expos, IMHO they are not "too" commercial or aggressive. When you have a great product, and you are not making much of a profit off it, you want the world to know and share in it.

No one that I know of offers us more than the Journal, lets just be grateful.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-05-2005, 12:27 AM   #36
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Re: Aikido Journal

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
No one that I know of offers us more than the Journal, lets just be grateful.
Well said, Lynn-san!
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Old 09-05-2005, 11:39 AM   #37
Dan Rubin
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Re: Aikido Journal

A couple of years ago, on 12/10/2003, Shaun Ravens wrote (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4784):

Having participated in that other thread, I am amazed, and quit disappointed that it was deleted. Of course, without knowing Jun's reasoning, we can only speculate if the end result is censorship, or fair play. I agree with both Mr. Goldsbury & Mr. Fairbanks. I did not see that anyone was overtly rude, or even moderately hostile. I happened to be the target of some sentiments that I felt were off the mark, and as a result of someone posting comments about me in a public forum based on something I wrote to them via private e-mail, requested that they remove their comments. I don't like being lectured in condescending tones by persons who I have not given that type of permission. It is tantamount to walking past the front door of a dojo and someone coming out and telling you how unconscious you were to not come in and bow to their kamiza...

In any case, I would certainly like to know Jun's thinking. Quite honestly, we should as a group demand it. I am one for moving my posting habits, and more importatnly my borwsing habits away from this site over to one of the other two sites, and to continue to refrain from posting here until I can be assured that arbitrary censorship without any sign of sense of responsibility to the group as a whole on the part of the moderator(s) is not going to be the norm.

WHO'S WITH ME?

******

On 9/1/2005 Shaun Ravens wrote (in the current thread):

<rant>Yeah, well, without a doubt if this thread were over at AJ, it would be mysteriously deleted because questioning the mindset of the owners of the site is a big NO-NO - especially when it relates to anything close to one of their revenue streams! I privately questioned the thread pulling, and I was simply booted off the site by a rather rude, nerdy webmaster, (un hombre sans-juevos, from what I could gather). I don't want to embarrass myself or the owner of the site by posting my thoughts about the private email I received from him which basically said, "Yell, well that is the way it is around here!" followed up with a "I don't want to hear anything more from you..." So if you don't support the party line over there, and you are not one of the silent, unquestioning devotees or their take on Aikido's history, then there simply isn't a place for ya, and that may include a large part of the Aikido Community they pretend to represent. I mean its martial arts man, not "A P.C. Forum - a.k.a. only for those who beat the drum of the AJ money maker..."</rant>

***
This comparison has not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. It is offerred only for its entertainment value.
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:04 PM   #38
crbateman
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Re: Aikido Journal

Great stuff, Dan! You made a terrific point without yourself saying a word!
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:28 PM   #39
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Aikido Journal

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote:
[i]
This comparison has not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. It is offerred only for its entertainment value.
Mr Rubin,

While I do not know you, or the source of your own comedic sense, I wanted to request an immediate stop to your style of post in this particular thread. You are free to accept my request or not. Of course you are also free to comment on the subject, which in your last post you chose not to do. Perhaps next time, in case you have a question or better yet a valid point, please be more direct so as to add something if you are able.

Since you made the comparison in some effort to point out some error, favoritism or hypocrisy on my part I will address it.

The two cases you quote are completely different. In one case, the one on this site, the thread was deleted because people attacked a well respected teacher, one who in the end proved that he couldn't defend the ground from which he attacked others. There was no real merit to the thread in an of itself, however it was a testament to the ode, "Don't dish it out if you can't take it" It had nothing to do with money or a potential long term revenue stream in the least. I am sure if asked Jun would provide evidence of private correspondence with individuals who would have been effected by the removal of the thread. I have received several polite private emails from Jun who always warns first, giving intelligent reasons for his warning along with a polite request to move the thread in a more positive direction - with an occasional suggestion on how to do so, long before there is any removal.

This was not the case on the other site. And, as I pointed out, on the other site, they simply don't care if you like it or not, and they are quite vocal to let you know it. Also that is the least of the passive-aggressive activity that is sponsored there from the top down, as it gets much worse on many levels. However, that is not the thrust of this thread.

The point of this thread, seemingly lost on the Stanley Pranin's Aikido Journal Cheerleaders is not about this site versus that site, or what have you. It is about the possibility for creating an O-Sensei Museum, an actual living legacy to O-Sensei's efforts that would benefit the Aikido community indefinitely. There is an issue, which I contend that Stanley Pranin could have taken that route, and chose not to. That of course is his right. He could have and didn't. Irregardless of what Mr. Batemann or Dr. Seiser have pointed out, the fact that the world has benefited by what Mr. Pranin has done thus far - a fact that I don't disagree with, that it pales in comparison to what he could have created as a permanent legacy to both O-Sensei's efforts and his own efforts to bring them to light if he had chosen to do so in the first place. This is not a criticism of him as a person, only a conversation by which some of us can ferret out the possibility of rising to the next level. Maybe Stanley Pranin didn't think of it. Maybe he couldn't do it at the time. However things have come a long way since he began his quest so many decades ago. Times have changed.

I want to say that I have been to every Aiki-Expo, purchased both video tapes and books from Aikido Journal and have the Aikido Journal site as one of the few Aikido sources listed on my links page on our website. At the last Expo, I and all of my students went to Stan and personally thanked him for giving us a great and unique opportunity to train with so many great teachers - and this time just outside of Los Angeles. We honor and give thanks where it is due. However we look to see where things can be improved when they can - not holding on to the idea that just because it was done a certain way that it is the best way, only way or that it is now unable to be changed for the betterment of the future of Aikido.

By the way...my suggestion, and that is really what it amounts to, didn't preclude a for-profit venture in the form of Aikido Journal, selling Aikido Journal related material, merely a separation between the archival materials related to O-Sensei & his original Deshi and the academic posturing and for-profit efforts of today. That is all. If you think I pulled this idea out of my hat, or wherever... I did not. I actually got it from Abe Sensei...
.
..
...
....?

So sorry.



.
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:40 PM   #40
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Re: Aikido Journal

I look forward to the materials, museums, and events that hopefully others are planning with their own efforts, times, and resources to fill what they see as as voids in the Aikido world.

Please place me on your mailing list.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:52 PM   #41
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Museum for O-Sensei

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote:
Great stuff, Dan! You made a terrific point without yourself saying a word!
Hi Clark,

Really… and what point was that? Might it be that he doesn't have any thoughts on the point of the thread? Or is it that he would rather not let anyone know he is one among those who has a double-secret membership in the club that gives out a secret, stick on AJ tattoo, a paper megaphone and set of drab purple and beet red pom-poms to all of its members? Yeah, anything is possible, I guess.

I wanted to wait and see who would come out and cheer for Stanley and Aikido Journal, and wouldn't you know it, it turns out it is several "featured authors" from Aikido Journal. Fair enough. I expected that. However, your comments and support of Stan's efforts and AJ's success notwithstanding, I ask, "Is it the best that we can do?" I come up with a no, hence the point of the thread. If all you can do is say, "Yeah!" with or without a shake of the pom-poms, I say to you the following:
"Great!" "We got it." "It is duly noted."
and
We'll be sure to put a check in the column representing your vote that we can't do any better for the future of Aikido."

Cheerleaders and their cheering aside, is there anyone else that would like to discuss the positive aspect of establishing an O-Sensei Museum in an effort of creating a permanent, publicly available archive as a living legacy of the efforts of O-Sensei & his original deshi. If not, what the heck are all you non-thinking people going to do when gas hits $5.00 a gallon? What? What did he say? I know, I know, it will never go that high.... Sure, and it was never going to hit $2.00, $3.00 or $4.00, either, just like we can't do anything better for the future of the Aikido community. What?



.
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Old 09-05-2005, 06:26 PM   #42
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Re: Predictable decline in detectable reality (i.e. when manipulated truth becomes fact)

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
...If we take this basic premise and extend it out in time we can predict a disturbing trend. Metaphorically speaking, (and please allow me the literary latitude) that the actions of the zealot of today are only outdone by the actions of the son of the zealot tomorrow. Okay those are broad strokes..
Without knowing many specifics I'd like to express my thinking about this idea you articulated here. Basing any macro pattern upon a relatively small portion always creates hyperbole. And while it is highly possible that any idea will get taken to extream and perhaps be given an undo/disproportional voice, thus misrepresenting the central truth(s) involved, I don't think hyperbolic rhetoric ever lasts very long. It is by nature highly unstable...besides, regarding history, it's never as important as the present. In fact, I tend to treat all history as rather unimportant aside from being a parable from which to learn behavior principles. History and its recollection is never as 20/20 as people like to think it is. I'd submit the reason the NYPost and Times have such dramatically different views is less based upon hidden agenda and more on the unique processes that go into human perception. I don't want to make it sound like we're all God's innocent chil''en, but I'd say that is mostly true rather than less so.
In regards to commercialization (keeping in mind that we're a capitalistic society), i tend to be very skeptical of anyone trying to sell anything (almost as much as those who just give things away ). I know corporate history too well not to. However, my only solution to the problem of over-commercialization is to lead by example and make efforts where I can to return the emphasis on true value. In our case the true value lies in the principle of aiki, the actual meeting and harmonization/reconciliation of energy/work. We can never force people to behave in any given way, even if it is in fact superior.
Ok I'm getting pedantic and a bit tangential like usual, but after reading several of the earlier posts in this thread one thing keeps occuring to me: Aikido is never found online, nor is it ever found in verbal articulations. It's found on the mat via the sharing of well-intentioned and sincere wills. In short: I don't think the expressions of any web-site matter a hill of beans in comparison to that.
Hmmm, now i want to check out AJ just to see what the hubbub is all about.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 09-05-2005, 07:45 PM   #43
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Permanent, public, not-for-profit Aikido Museum.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
Without knowing many specifics I'd like to express my thinking about this idea you articulated here. Basing any macro pattern upon a relatively small portion always creates hyperbole. And while it is highly possible that any idea will get taken to extream and perhaps be given an undo/disproportional voice, thus misrepresenting the central truth(s) involved, I don't think hyperbolic rhetoric ever lasts very long. It is by nature highly unstable...besides, regarding history, it's never as important as the present. In fact, I tend to treat all history as rather unimportant aside from being a parable from which to learn behavior principles. History and its recollection is never as 20/20 as people like to think it is. I'd submit the reason the NYPost and Times have such dramatically different views is less based upon hidden agenda and more on the unique processes that go into human perception. I don't want to make it sound like we're all God's innocent chil''en, but I'd say that is mostly true rather than less so.
In regards to commercialization (keeping in mind that we're a capitalistic society), i tend to be very skeptical of anyone trying to sell anything (almost as much as those who just give things away ). I know corporate history too well not to. However, my only solution to the problem of over-commercialization is to lead by example and make efforts where I can to return the emphasis on true value. In our case the true value lies in the principle of aiki, the actual meeting and harmonization/reconciliation of energy/work. We can never force people to behave in any given way, even if it is in fact superior.
Ok I'm getting pedantic and a bit tangential like usual, but after reading several of the earlier posts in this thread one thing keeps occuring to me: Aikido is never found online, nor is it ever found in verbal articulations. It's found on the mat via the sharing of well-intentioned and sincere wills. In short: I don't think the expressions of any web-site matter a hill of beans in comparison to that.
Hmmm, now i want to check out AJ just to see what the hubbub is all about.
Take care,
Matt
Hi Matt,

Thank you for contributing to the thread. Hmmmm. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmm. Well, um.... yeah.... I like a lot of what you said - I think, especially this ditty...
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
I tend to treat all history as rather unimportant aside from being a parable from which to learn behavior principles.
I almost wrote you off humping through the jargon in the preceding statements, and when I bumped into that jewel I got half way through and looked for a hammer to smash... but then I read the next part of your statement and kind of agreed... kind of, depending on if I read you correctly...

People always twist things to their own means, so all absolute truths have a grain of someone at their core. We could get off on a tangent and address this. I am sure, both you and I, and probably a host of others might like to debate it into the next decade. However I do believe at the core of your argument, stated here:
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
Basing any macro pattern upon a relatively small portion always creates hyperbole. And while it is highly possible that any idea will get taken to extream and perhaps be given an undo/disproportional voice, thus misrepresenting the central truth(s) involved, I don't think hyperbolic rhetoric ever lasts very long. It is by nature highly unstable...besides, regarding history, it's never as important as the present.
that there is the absolute truth that there are no absolute truths, especially if they are not relevant to the immediate moment. I absolutely believe that this point, while absolutely true is absolutely pointless when discussing the main point of the thread, that being, Is there a value in creating a permanent, public not-for profit museum housing all the archival materials relevant to O-Sensei & his original deshi above and beyond the disparate, unorganized commercially based model we observe today That is the crux of it.

I did like your comments about not finding Aikido online. Along that same vein, I don't believe that someone would be able to go to the Aikido Museum and learn aikido without being under the long-term tutelage of a master. The Museum might help serve those of us that are already on the path, and allow those who accompany us along on the journey to have a better context for what it is which we are seeking. However, I would like to add that from what I have seen the highest levels of the art of Aikido are found not on the mat, but rather about 5 to 6 feet above it.

PS -- Please tell me most everyone else up there in WA speaks a bit more casual than you did here. Regardless I look forward to your continued contributions, casual, formal or whatever.



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Old 09-05-2005, 07:46 PM   #44
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Re: Predictable decline in detectable reality (i.e. when manipulated truth becomes fact)

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
...even if it is in fact superior.
I just want to emphasize the "if" in this remark. Besides, it's fun to tweak the fonts a little

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Old 09-05-2005, 09:14 PM   #45
Mark Uttech
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Re: Aikido Journal

Gee, and I thought the anarchy in New Orleans was bad...
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Old 09-05-2005, 09:47 PM   #46
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Re: Permanent, public, not-for-profit Aikido Museum.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
Is there a value in creating a permanent, public not-for profit museum housing all the archival materials relevant to O-Sensei & his original deshi above and beyond the disparate, unorganized commercially based model we observe today That is the crux of it.
I don't think that anybody argued against the formation of a non-profit organization, so that's really kind of a non-issue. I do think that many people felt that you were criticizing a chicken farmer for not raising ducks - if you want to eat duck then you're always free to go out and raise some of your own, it has nothing to do with what the chicken farmer is doing.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-05-2005, 10:13 PM   #47
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Re: Permanent, public, not-for-profit Aikido Museum.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote:
PS -- Please tell me most everyone else up there in WA speaks a bit more casual than you did here. Regardless I look forward to your continued contributions, casual, formal or whatever.
.
Heheheh! It's a state law to drink coffee, hug trees, and sound like you know what you're talking about even when you don't (AKA-pseudo-intellectualism...and you have to work the word "pseudo" into a sentance whenever possible, I might add). Yeah I have my moments. The ironic thing is that I was raised in a trailer park where I learned to bastardize "proper" english and swear like a sailor by age of 10. Over-compensating? Maybe a little, but for some reason it usually only happens when I'm writting.
And now that I've elucidated via that preamble...
I agree with your responses. For one thing what I wrote was practically it's own topic. I was remarking more on the idea of whether or not AJ was misrepresenting Aikido, which I took to be the initial topic, but I realize only reading the first several posts is like only hearing part of a conversation...and I could've even simply misread them. But I do think a non-profit museum could be of benefit. Although, any organization that ever seeks to build new things isn't exactly a "true" non-profit organization because it must take in more money/resources in order to grow, and I find pet projects (like things of this nature tend to be) tend to always grow in some way. Still, I think a place dedicated to being as objective as possible is always a good thing. One of the hardest things I've come across in reading about "Aikido" is that Ueshiba Morihei-Sensei said so darned much, and his view of "Aiki", and thus the "way of aiki", changed as he did. So, yeah, i'd like a place that concisely (something I could learn more about ) provides access to the whole spectrum...er...the whole enchilada.
Whew! Made it!
Take care, dude! <---one of my favorite 4-letter words
Matt

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Old 09-05-2005, 10:41 PM   #48
crbateman
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Re: Aikido Journal

There is always somebody (too many, in fact) willing to criticize those who have done much for not doing enough. The tough part is finding those willing to put their sweat where their words are. Stan has done it, and few others have even tried. And still there are the critics.

And Shawn, just so you can gain some perspective, I did not ask to be designated as a "Featured Author" at AJ. Stan asked me to do it because of my book fetish, and because nobody else was blogging on what he felt was an important subject. Perhaps if your writing was more objective and less cynical, you would receive a similar invitation. Frankly, all it has done for me is put me in the crosshairs of the narrow-minded and the judgmental. But I draw inspiration from Stan's dedication. If you think that makes me partial to him, you're right. If it means I can't have your respect, I'll be sorry, but I'll live.
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Old 09-05-2005, 11:28 PM   #49
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Re: Permanent, public, not-for-profit Aikido Museum.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I don't think that anybody argued against the formation of a non-profit organization, so that's really kind of a non-issue.
Well Chris, I might have to disagree with you there starting with yourself. While you believe yourself not to have disagreed with it, and although you allude to your agreement (in principle only, perhaps) you haven't actually come out and said you support the idea. Better yet, you haven't extrapolated and put forth as comments how (based upon your allusions to agreeing with it) you see the formation of the Museum and the contribution by Stanley Pranin of the archival materials would ("might" if you prefer that word) go towards bettering the Aikido world and cementing an alternative future to what is currently not possible given a for-profit model.
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I do think that many people felt that you were criticizing a chicken farmer for not raising ducks - if you want to eat duck then you're always free to go out and raise some of your own, it has nothing to do with what the chicken farmer is doing.
What I will say is I am not criticizing (in the way that you mean) the farmer and have said that repeatedly, but since you insist I will, using your metaphor, of course. Here goes... It is not that the farmer is raising chickens over ducks rather it is that he is being chicken and ducking his higher responsibility to the farm.

PS - (written with tongue in cheek) I am sure you'll go dig up some of my old comments to prove your last point. However, I will continue to ask you to discuss the issue of the thread, in this case the potential betterment of an Aikido Museum for the Aikido community rather than pointing a finger at me for one reason or another. If you like you can start the Chris Li's issues with Shaun thread and post all the derogatory comments, misrepresenting allusions and animal metaphors, etc. based on your unstated or hidden agendas that you like. I'll even participate and sling some dirt on myself. Oh Glee!



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Old 09-05-2005, 11:37 PM   #50
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Re: Aikido Journal

Shaun R.,

For your museum idea to reach the most Aikido people and do the most good wouldn't it be best for it to be a virtual museum on the internet? Isn't that what Aikido Journal is already doing in a way? What would be the major differences between what you propose and what Aikido Journal is already?

Cheers,

Matthew
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