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Old 09-01-2005, 08:22 PM   #26
Mark Uttech
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Re: aikido and christianism

this thread is getting off track
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:34 PM   #27
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: aikido and christianism

Yeah...maybe it is, Matt. I think the Christians (including myself) on this thread already answered the question with the first 2-3 posts on this thread. Then there were a couple of honest questions and then afterwards a whole bunch of new age rubbish! I personally think they're just trying to make me mad or something or prove me wrong...but it doesn't work that way unfortunately for them.
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:15 PM   #28
jeff.
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Re: aikido and christianism

hello. again: thanks for your thoughts, and i'll try to answer them well with some of my own.

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Well, Mr. Miller...in regards to what I said about the devil and your claims about so called "theologians" saying that he doesn't exist...not all theologians are Christian...in fact...not all theologians are really theologians!
i'm not sure what this even means. how can a theologian not be a theologian? as to whether or not they are christians... if someone calls themselves a christian, then, frankly, we have to take their word for it, regardless of whether or not we like what they are saying. from my christian background, much of what i've observed you saying on many threads would be declared seriously un-christian. but i do not believe that you are. i think you are sincere, but that we have disagreements about what the bible and jesus really said / meant. same goes for theologians.

st augustine, like most theologians, was in the business of trying to figure out what jesus was saying. the fact that they mostly disagree should tell us that figuring out what jesus was up to is not a simple matter. particularly now that there is access to versions of the gospels in arimaic (the pashita texts -- i think i spelled that right), which totally changes the picture (esp given the nature of the ariamaic language, versus the greek). ((as an example, in arimaic the word we translate as "father" (is the "our father" prayer) is "abswoon", which is non-gender specific. meaning something more like a formal-affectionate version of "parent".))

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Secondly, St. Augustine wasn't Jesus. So...that means 1.) He's not God and 2.) He's not an authority on complete, orthodox Chrisitianity (though a lot of the things he said are good...but doesn't mean that they're all true) and 3.) People tend to take a lot of what Christ said out of context...imagine what they would do with someone like St. Augustine!
i don't disagree with a word of what you said here. i merely used st augustine as an example to point out that not all christians agree with you. so the statements you made that to be a christian means believing in the devil a certain way is not true. that's all.

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Also...about what I said about people who do drugs...that's not judgmental or unChristian like for me to say. It's wrong and that's it. If it's against the law and unhealthy for you to do (and you know that) and you do it anyway to impress other people...you're a loser! I could say worse...but I don't...why? Well...because that would be "unChristian!" Ofcourse...I wouldn't say that to someone who's really struggling with it and wants to stop...but to some punk kid who just wants to be "cool" yeah! I'll say he/she is a loser and I've done it before!
calling someone a loser is, by definition, judgemental, my friend. doing things to impress people does not necessarily make you a loser, but it does make you likely to be a victim of low self-esteem, etc. which may stem from a variety of sources, including, say, abuse. and my argument here is that jesus taught us to try to see this whole picture thru the practice of compassion, and to thereby act compassionately toward that person. particularly when we disagree with them ("love your enemies"), or find their actions repugnant.

of course you could say worse. by i'm saying that i think that even if you don't say "loser", but just think it, you are already in error viz. the teachings of jesus by being judgemental.

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
As for your definitions about chi/ki and the Holy Spirit...just because some things may be similar...does not mean they're the same thing...remember that. Taoists aren't Christians and Christians aren't Taoists and if you're trying to say that...then...I'll warn you now...you're gonna make yourself look foolish...which I know you're not!
i've come to think that as there is only one, what we could call, "god", s/he has revealed him/herself to all peoples of the world, resulting in the variety of religions due to the cultural contexts. hence, the language used is different for a good reason. and it also makes sense of the level: god knows better than anyone that different people need different things to come to him/her. in islam this is expressed in the tradition "one man's [sic] way to god is another man's satanism". meaning, what may work for you, might lead me into darkness because it is not right for me. but god is still god, whatever the context. i think this is borne out by the similarities in the essential (i.e. mystical) aspects of all faiths, underneath the necessarily different exoteric aspects.

this is coumpounded by the fact that, again, in my experience there is no difference. when you read the texts of eastern thought in regards to ki, and compare them to the text in christianity in regards to the holy sprit (particularly when it comes to the mystical experiences of both) it is also hard to avoid the essential sameness of the concepts. that is: that "ki" is / has been the eastern way of trying to come to terms, thru their cultural / religious contexts, with their experiences of what someone in the abrahamic tradition would call the holy spirit. to think that someone in china hasn't experienced the "holy spirit" just because they are not christian seems absurd to me.

what's true is true everywhere. if the holy spirit exists, it exists and inspires everywhere. and what is the record of those inspirations? i believe, in the east, the record is contained in the study of ki.

the reason i have posted this argument in this thread is that i think this discussion can have a positive effect for christians trying to understand how their study of aikido intersects with their trying to live by the teachings of jesus.

as to taoists and christians: i didn't say they are the same. i pointed out similar concepts within the two faiths. and then pointed out that, historically, in china, there were a group of christian monks who participated in taoism, and vise versa.

as a final note: i don't appreciate having my arguments marginalized thru the meaningless, insulting label "new age". most of what i have argued or writen here has come from one of two sources: 1) my academic study of religions (i'm planning on pursuing a phd in comparative religion and mythology); 2) my own spritual experiences within my christian upbringing and within my own investigations into the eastern disciplines of taoism and buddhism, and in particular how they are expressed thru the spiritual side of aikido. i don't really see these two "sources" as separate.

i'm not trying to prove you wrong, alan. i'm trying to dialog with you about our differences, which i think can help us both grow. and i've continued posting publically in hopes that these discussions could be of aid to others as well, hoping that they might join in and widen the base of the discussion. but i think we have unfortunately degenerated past that. hence, this will be the last time i post publically on this thread, at least in regards to this specific aspect of the discussion. tho i invite you or anyone who wants to to pm about these things. i'm always eager to learn!!
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:46 PM   #29
Patrick Crane
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Re: aikido and christianism

Quote:
Gerald Fontaniere wrote:
do you think a christian can practice aikido ?
thanks.

Gerald

So far it seems that despite some differing perspectives, the consensus on this question has been "yes."

So I'd like to consider an answer of "no."

To be a Christian is to embrace the mindset of the Jehovah/Jesus deity. This is the mindset of vengeance, punishment, vindictive retaliation for offenses given, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
But Jesus taught forgiveness?
No, Jesus taught that He would become the means by which we could be forgiven based on his willingness to suffer God's wrath in our place.
So the mindset has not progressed an inch, but is still mired in the old concepts of sin and punishment, guilt and redemption by blood sacrifice......ours or someone Else's.

Can a person mired in this mindset learn to effectively, even expertly mime the techniques of O-sensei?
Sure.
But can he/she actually DO Aikido?
Perhaps no.
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Old 09-02-2005, 05:32 PM   #30
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: aikido and christianism

[quote=Patrick Crane]So far it seems that despite some differing perspectives, the consensus on this question has been "yes."

So I'd like to consider an answer of "no."

To be a Christian is to embrace the mindset of the Jehovah/Jesus deity. This is the mindset of vengeance, punishment, vindictive retaliation for offenses given, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
But Jesus taught forgiveness?
No, Jesus taught that He would become the means by which we could be forgiven based on his willingness to suffer God's wrath in our place.
So the mindset has not progressed an inch, but is still mired in the old concepts of sin and punishment, guilt and redemption by blood sacrifice......ours or someone Else's.[QUOTE/]



What the frig!?!?!? Where in the world did you get those ideas from!? Implying that Jesus did not teach forgiveness!?!?!? Seriously, the things Jeff Miller says is more believable than what you're saying! lol! You REALLLY, RREALLLY need to read the Bible and the teachings of Christ and some good Christian commentary on the matter.
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Old 09-02-2005, 05:38 PM   #31
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Re: aikido and christianism

Quote:
this is coumpounded by the fact that, again, in my experience there is no difference. when you read the texts of eastern thought in regards to ki, and compare them to the text in christianity in regards to the holy sprit (particularly when it comes to the mystical experiences of both) it is also hard to avoid the essential sameness of the concepts. that is: that "ki" is / has been the eastern way of trying to come to terms, thru their cultural / religious contexts, with their experiences of what someone in the abrahamic tradition would call the holy spirit. to think that someone in china hasn't experienced the "holy spirit" just because they are not christian seems absurd to me
.

So you're telling me that Steven Seagal is full of the Holy Spirit!? LOL! Before you answer, I'll answer...He's not! So...that alone is proof that the concepts of chi/ki and who the Holy Spirit is are totally different, though similar in some aspects. I believe that an individual, who is not a Christian, [B]CAN [/b] experience the Holy Spirit...but once they do they become Christians. The Holy Spirit wouldn't come down on anyone who is not "ready" for it or seeking it.
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Old 09-04-2005, 12:14 PM   #32
Patrick Crane
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Re: aikido and christianism

[quote=Alan M. Rodriguez]
Implying that Jesus did not teach forgiveness!?!?!?
[QUOTE/]

I'm implying that the teachings about forgiveness that have been attributed to the legendary "Jesus" are so hopelessly mired in the old, primitive, moralistic concepts of sin, guilt, repentance and redemption by blood sacrifice as to be incompatible with or irrelevant to the attitude of an aikido student towards an attacker.

In class, obviously, the "attacker" is a trusted fellow student cooperating together with me to develop our skills and become better students.

Outside of class, an attacker can be seen as fulfilling the same role, albeit perhaps in spite of himself.

If I were to view an attacker as a "sinner" on whom I need to take "pity", because he's awaiting the wrath of some cranky deity unless he "repents'; to me that's a much less evolved mentality.
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Old 09-04-2005, 03:37 PM   #33
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Re: aikido and christianism

Hello fellow Aikidoka,
I'll post a few of my thoughts on this subject.
As for you Alan:
Well done my brother, for the most part, and I do say "for the most part" because some of what you said has come across as judgemental. Remember that Jesus showed his anger to whom, the "sinners" or the "righteous"? And I put both in quotes because both groups were actually sinners, but He dispised the pharisees (who were the holiest men of the day) and told the "sinners" that thier righteousness would have to surpass that of the pharisees if they were enter into His kingdom...which was impossible, and He knew this...this is why He became The sacrifice so that we might have eternal life. I just want you to know that your beliefs are right on...just remember to take pity on those who are struggling with addictions or sinful desires. We are still living in the flesh and the flesh is constantly being warred upon by the enemy. We will be tested to our limits and pushed beyond...and we would fall if it weren't for Christ. Remember the Word says that, "In the last days, many will be decieved...even the elect if it were possible." Without the light of Jesus, which is the only True light, man will not be able to help but to be decieved by the Satan, who will come as an angel of light. The world will all come together as one, pushing all of us "Christians" out of their way and eventually putting us to death because we will be the only ones who will not join with them in their cause to "unite all mankind." Jesus never once said that He came to bring peace to the nations or to make all men get along...in fact he claimed that He brought a sword, and that families would be divided for His name's sake.
To everyone else:
Christianity is NOT about harmony, love and peace.
It is NOT about feeling good or being in harmony with nature.
It is NOT about getting "closer" to God by doing good works.
It is NOT about emptying yourself in order for the spirit of the universe to work through you...though these all can come as a result of someone being saved, Christianity is NOT about any of these, or religion even.
Christianity IS about one thing and one thing only. Faith. Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that He died on a cross, carrying the sins of the world (because God removed His hand from Jesus, and thus Jesus was taking on the wrath of sin, not the wrath of God), Jesus then went to Hell and defeated death itself by raising Himself up three days after He died, and is now seated with God in the heavenly realms. And He will one day come back for His chosen sheep.
Remember Alan, men delight in darknes, though it may not even seem dim to them, it is still the darkness, and the darkness will never understand the light...it is impossible.
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Old 09-04-2005, 10:14 PM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido and christianism

Mattew,

How do you see/compare/reconcile your above statements against aikido?

If I understand you correctly, then there is no comparison or relation between aikido and christianity having mutually aligning values/principles?
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Old 09-05-2005, 01:43 PM   #35
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Re: aikido and christianism

Kevin,
glad to answer your question:
What I stated was that Christianity is about believing in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. Believing that He paid the price for your ticket into heaven because God is a God of holiness and perfection and will not and can not tolerate sin- so there is no other way for us to get to heaven, except throught the blood of the Lamb. This is what Jesus said, this is why I believe it. Because He said it. The other "things" that come with being redeemed can very well be similar to what Aikido's lessons bring to the mat and to daily life, however they have nothing to do with each other because at their core root is two very different beliefs. Aikido teaches someone to blend with another person by loosing your own resistance and hightening your senses, leaving no opening (suki). It also teaches balance, harmony, etc.. Christianity is about believing that you are a hopeless sinner with no way of pleasing God- so you must accept Christ.
Thanks for the question,
Matt
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Old 09-05-2005, 05:53 PM   #36
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Great Discussion guys - I hope the following comments help!

Hello and Shalom

This subject interests me tremendously as I am looking at ways the Martial Arts in general can be reconciled to the underlying tenets of Apostolic Christianity. Now I use the term "Apostolic" as opposed to the current belief systems in Christianity as I think the two are diversely different things. A lot of the ideas believed and taught by the modern day Christians have their roots around and after the 3d Century AD and these were largely influenced by Greek Metaphysics rather than the Judeo-Apostolic tradition.

The teachings of the Trinity, the Immortal Soul and Original Sin are exemplary. Neither of these can be said to have their roots in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Jews today continue to vehemently reject the Orthodox Christian teachings of the Trinity and Original Sin.

These two tenets underly so much of what a vast majority of Christians believe today and they are indeed contradictory to the very meaning of Ai-Ki-Do.

Aikido assumes the underlying premise that the universe is naturally balanced by the negative forces of Yin and Yang etc., light and darkness and Light, good and evil. St Augustine who is largely attributed with formulating the doctrine of Original Sin may have been largely influenced by his earlier exposure to Manichean ism which is a religious-philosophical group that taught a duality in the universe between Chaos and Order, Light and Darkness, Good and Evil. This duality went so far as to say that all matter was evil and corrupt while the Spirit was Pure and Good. Christians believe that Adam and Eve who were the first human beings created by God were created 'very good' but when they sinned (i.e. disobeyed God's commandment by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they brought into fruition:

(1) A negative physical change to their own bodies which has been passed to all their offspring. As human beings and descendants of Adam we have inherited their fallen and corrupt nature. Sin therefore according to some Christians is both an act and a state.
(2) All Creation was 'cursed' as a result of the 'Adamic Fall'.

These things should make it obvious that Christian theology can not accept a balanced and good universe seeing it is cursed and inharmonious. In fact Christianity teaches that there is a
natural and necessary conflict between the Spirit and the Body. The disharmony can only be repaired when the Kingdom of God is fully and materially established at the second coming of Christ.

Aikido asserts that the force common in all things (the Ki) can be managed (I think) to achieve harmony and peace. These again can not be reconciled (I think) even to the Judeo-Apostolic Christian philosophy which states the only way to "Peace" (From Shalom which means 'completeness', 'wholeness' and 'perfection') is from the undeniable and objective 'Righteousness' of God. Peace and harmony therefore can not be achieved simply by tapping into a force like 'KI' and although one might see the commonality between 'Ki' and the 'divine spirit' of Judeo-Christian tradition, both Jews and Christians acknowledge that without the belief that YHVH is the only true God and all his ways are right then there can be no peace. The Righteousness of God is something believed first and foremost from the Bible which most Christians believe is the inspired and inerrant Word (or words) of God. The idea therefore that absolute truths, regarding the divine and the universal nature of things, can be conveyed by a transcendent God and understood by imperfect humans contradicts the underlying premise in Aikido and most Eastern philosophies which states that no-one has a monopoly on truth. The Christians will verily assert from their New Testament scriptures that "Life Eternal' rests on the intellectual and experiential knowledge of the 'only true God and Yeshua haMassiach whom he hath sent" (John 17:3). if you don't have this necessary pre-requisite then you are excluded from the salvic blessings of Christ. Eastern Philosophies and indeed its secular counterpart viz. Western Post Modernism present a severe contradiction to modern day Christianity and seeing as the Martial Arts of the East have Buddhist roots it is difficult to reconcile particularly Kung Fu and Karate with the Apostolic Gospel and some Post-Apostolic Christian Gospels.

Sadly in most Post-Apostolic (That is modern day) Christianity both aggression and self defence are endorsed but I have yet to find a Christian who could prove their position from the Scriptures. The Gospel of Christ is in fact a present day pacifistic way of life which teaches and advocates the 'respect and preservation' of human life and peace as opposed to the Judeo tradition of an 'eye for an eye' and ' a tooth for tooth'. The counter assertion by Christ and his Apostles is that 'vengeance is mine saith the LORD" therefore any decent Christian would abstain from returning a 'slap' for a 'slap'. On the contrary they are admonished to do more by offering the other cheek. How this teaching can be reconciled to Aikido is something I wish to find out seeing as Aikido is all about self defence without bringing harm to the assailant. I can not think of any precedent in the New Testament (but then I can't remember all of it and maybe someone here might be able to quote an incident or two for me).

I have stated that there is a difference between the Apostolic and Post Apostolic Christians. Sometimes the two have common understandings however the doctrines of the Trinity, the Immortal Soul with Heaven and Hell going and the doctrine of Original Sin are never taught in the New Testament. They were formulations made at least 300 years after the death of Christ. There are Christian sects today that reject the Trinity, the immortality of the Soul and to some extent 'Original Sin'. I can only think of one that rejects them all. I personally reject anything that impinges on the oneness of God and the bodily nature of the resurrection however I can not readily dismiss the theory of a tainted human state in need of redemption. If I did ever endorse a Pelagasian or Semi-Pelagasian stance on the nature of humanity then I think Aikido which teaches Oneness and Harmony between body, spirit and soul would have enormous significance to Apostolic-Christianity. The Pelagian model asserts that the St Augustine Fall never existed and can not be proven from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. They assert that there is nothing inherently wrong with human beings or their FLESH but rather a natural balance exists between the Body and Spirit from birth to death if unhindered by persists acts of sin. Human beings are therefore inherently good and unimpaired and are capable of overcoming sin by the power of their own will. However sin which is only an act can be habitual and self deceiving if is allowed to continue in the Christian's life. God in Christ therefore helps in this respect. He is the Way - the perfect example of a Godly life and we can all aspire to follow his example. If the Pelagasian model is correct then Aikido particularly will have a common ground with Christianity. The Pelagasian model lends itself to the idea that the body and spirit can be controlled by a mind predisposed to the divine. Moreover where Pelagasian is coupled with a distinct form of Biblical Unitarianism (say Dynamic Monarchism) then the underlying teaching of the One Divine God who Was, Is and Shall Be All in All would have tremendous a far reaching significance. Because the Oneness and Unity between the body and spirit becomes a demonstrative reality of the Christian soul or life that outlives the underlying purpose of God which is to reconcile Flesh and Spirit, Man and God and by extension Heaven and Earth.

I suspect some things here will not be readily understood and I apologise for some heavy jargon as I have written this quickly. For a few others it may seem heretical and for this I can't apologise. I would however welcome any questions and criticisms or corrections in the hope that a continued discussion on the subject of "Aikido and Christianity" might at least make me all the wiser when or when not to decide ultimately on Aikido as a relevant
path in my life.

Alecheim Shalom (Unto you all - PEACE!).
Afa
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Old 10-03-2005, 01:41 PM   #37
jamara
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Re: aikido and christianism

By "christianism" I take it that you mean Christianity cos there ain't no such word as "christianism".
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Old 10-03-2005, 02:49 PM   #38
Mike Fugate
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Tongue Re: aikido and christianism

Thank You Jamara!
I was going to correct that, but you beat me to it. lol...Yea just like buddhianity, shintoanity, and of course the realiens...Sorry but the alien people really wig me out

"When you cease to strive to understand, then you will know without understanding." -- Caine
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Old 10-03-2005, 09:11 PM   #39
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Great Discussion guys - I hope the following comments help!

Quote:
Afa Schuster wrote:
Hello and Shalom
Shalom Aleichem, Afa. Please take this in the spirit of clarification intended.
Quote:
Afa Schuster wrote:
A lot of the ideas believed and taught by the modern day Christians have their roots around and after the 3d Century AD and these were largely influenced by Greek Metaphysics rather than the Judeo-Apostolic tradition.
Apostolic tradition is the principle that the witness to truth is best maintained in a primarily oral tradition by a direct lineage of trust and confidence in granting authority to further transmit the message. The same is true of Christianity, Buddhism and many martial arts traditions, among others. Nothing more is implied by the apostolic principle in and of itself. The apostolic churches (while differing amongst themselves on numerous important points), include the Roman rite, the Greek and Russian rites, the Eastern rite, and a few of the Protestant sects.

Quote:
Afa Schuster wrote:
The teachings of the Trinity, the Immortal Soul and Original Sin are exemplary. Neither of these can be said to have their roots in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Jews today continue to vehemently reject the Orthodox Christian teachings of the Trinity and Original Sin.
As I am not schooled in either Torah or Talmud, I will leave that to my good Jewish Brethren. However, the concept of the Trinitarian nature of the Absolute, Godhead, call it what you will is found not only in Christian teaching but in Greek paganism, in the Buddhist trikaya doctrine, Taoist teaching, as well as the Shinto trinitarian theology of Ame no Minakanushi no kami, Kami Musubi no kami, and Takami Musubi no kami, as held by O-Sensei himself. A similar and basic sense of the elements of reality is expressed in all of these teachings and fits within the world views of the diverse culttural traditons they all represent. Why they so closely correspond in this way I leave to your own consideration.
Quote:
Afa Schuster wrote:
[Orthodox Christian teachings of the Trinity and Original Sin. ]
These two tenets underly so much of what a vast majority of Christians believe today and they are indeed contradictory to the very meaning of Ai-Ki-Do.
Trinity -- Since O-Sensei spoke a good deal about the significance of Ame no MInakanushi no Kami, (kami of creation), Kami Musubi no Kami ( kami of the invisible world) and Takami Musubi no Kami (kami of the visible world), and because they map onto both Christian (God the Creator, Christ Incarnate God, and the Holy Spirit) and the closely configured Buddist trinitarian observations , the question is begged. How can triniatarian doctrine (of what ever stripe) be antithetical to Aikido?

Original sin -- Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, so the story goes. In so doing they knew the distinction between Good and Evil, themselves and God, and between male and female and human and non-human. The sin lay not in knowledge of the distinction but in assuming an unreal separation between them.

As a coin is both heads and tails regardless which side is visible, the other side is there, even if not seen. Heads is not tails but neither is one ever apart from the other. God is one, maker of all, Christ the ruler of what is seen and the Holy Spirit, ruler of the unseen. We are not apart from God, man is not apart from woman, human is not apart from non-human, whatever the reality of the distinction, there is no separation except in our imagination. That is our sin, original because it is an error that flows from the fundamental human faculty of rational distinction The error occurs as part of our natural growth of intellect. It is this error that is the acknowledged cause of suffering in Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, and many other tradition of faith.

As there is a cause so there is and end to the cause. That is redemption, forgiveness of sin, abandoning distinction, accepting the evil with the good, loving our enemies as ourselves, until all illusion of separation ceases within us. It is nothing that we can do or accomplish, hence the error of Pelagius, because it is precisely stopping, ceasing, non-striving, NOT doing something we wish to do almost more than anything, distinguish, this/that -- you/me -- attacker/attacked...

Faith is the answer, not belief, which is but further exercise in distinction and the risk of illusory separation. Faith -- the nameless trust -- the irimi leap under the descending sword, preferably with a big fat grin on your face.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-03-2005, 10:16 PM   #40
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Great Discussion guys - I hope the following comments help!

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Faith is the answer, not belief, which is but further exercise in distinction and the risk of illusory separation. Faith -- the nameless trust -- the irimi leap under the descending sword, preferably with a big fat grin on your face.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
What is the distinction between faith and belief? I've always thought having faith in something required a belief. By the way...i rather liked this part of your message...a very nice image popped into mind and one which felt (for lack of a better word) true.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-04-2005, 03:29 AM   #41
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido and christianism

I finally got around to getting caught up on this post. Great c\discussion from Erick in post #39 and Afa in post #36.

I think you guys did a great job here.

A few comments. both of you discuss the concept of dualism. I think this is the key to everything. The perspective you have on it is what is key. Many believe that Good/Evil are separate and distinct and others believe that while the concepts are separate and distinct in the mind of a human, that there is no separatation, only within our perceptions or delusions.

Could it be that why mankind still fights and uses violence as a mean for conflict stems from the conflict we create through the concept/perception of duality?

Not to attack anyone, but If you truely believe that all man is evil or bad in nature, and the only way we can resolve this is through God or Jesus as the pathway to God, then what incentive do we have to be compassionate to others...doesn't it become irrelevant? I am curious to how you resolve this.

Does it make a so-called eastern philosopical unifying art like aikido kinda pointless doesn't it? Does it dimission the art to simply feeling good about yourself or serve as a form of entertainment until you die and go to heaven? . Or does aikido serve another purpose for those with this view point?

Or do you tend not to really think about it at all and just drive on with life?
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Old 10-04-2005, 06:11 AM   #42
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Re: aikido and christianism

[
Does it make a so-called eastern philosophical unifying art like aikido kinda pointless doesn't it? Does it dimission the art to simply feeling good about yourself or serve as a form of entertainment until you die and go to heaven? . Or does aikido serve another purpose for those with this view point?

Or do you tend not to really think about it at all and just drive on with life?[/quote]

After being born again I tend to reflect on this a lot,
but the study of Budo is really for life if you truly do it.
I will leave in the hands of Jesus to guide me and tell me if
I am no longer supposed to do Aikido,his will be done !

"The snail made it to the arc by perseverance"

Train well !
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Old 10-04-2005, 09:50 AM   #43
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Re: aikido and christianism

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Not to attack anyone, but If you truely believe that all man is evil or bad in nature, and the only way we can resolve this is through God or Jesus as the pathway to God, then what incentive do we have to be compassionate to others...doesn't it become irrelevant? I am curious to how you resolve this.
I cannot say it better than it has been said ~2,500 years ago, and ~2,000 years ago, respectively:

"He was angry with me, he attacked me, he defeated me, he robbed me"—those who dwell on such thoughts will never be free from hatred.
"He was angry with me, he attacked me, he defeated me, he robbed me"—those who do not dwell on such thoughts will surely be free from hatred.
For hatred can never put an end to hatred. Love alone can. This is an unalterable law.
—Dhammapada 1:3-5

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. . . . If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. . . . Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. . . . You will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
—Luke 6:27-28, 32, 35

We cannot be at peace with others unless we are at peace with ourselves. And being at peace with others is the road to peace within ourselves. A recursive and unending spiral ... Whether we spiral toward anger or spiral toward peace is our choice. The world will spin on regardless, one way or the other.

[Due credit belongs to Jon Zuck who placed these two exemplary statements in parallel. An excellent site BTW, at http://www.frimmin.com/faith/index.html. He has some excellent film reviews from a spiritual standpoint.]

Cordially,
Erick Mead
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Old 10-04-2005, 11:11 AM   #44
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Great Discussion guys - I hope the following comments help!

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
{Quoting Erick Mead]
Faith is the answer, not belief, which is but further exercise in distinction and the risk of illusory separation. Faith -- the nameless trust -- the irimi leap under the descending sword, preferably with a big fat grin on your face.
[End Quote]
Matt
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
What is the distinction between faith and belief? I've always thought having faith in something required a belief. By the way...i rather liked this part of your message...a very nice image popped into mind and one which felt (for lack of a better word) true.
Take care,
Matt
Since faith is without distinction, there can be no distinction between faith and any particular belief, but neither are they equivalent.

Belief is assertive; it requires an object. Belief seeks distinction.(Omote)

Faith is undistinguished; it is without object. Thus, faith is humble, trust without expectation.
(Ura)

For the biblically inclined:
"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? -- Matthew 6:25-30 (see also Luke 12 22-28.)

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." --Matthew 18:3-4

And lastly:
Good men, at all times, surrender in truth all attachments. The holy spend not idle words on things of desire. When pleasure or pain comes to them, the wise feel above pleasure or pain. ... Leaving behind the path of darkness and following the path of light, let the wise man leave his home life and go into a life of freedom. In solitude that few enjoy, let him find joy supreme: free from possessions, free from desires, and free from whatever may darken his mind. -- Dhammapada, 6:83, 88.

These all speak of asceticism, misogi, resolute acceptance and detachment from desire or hate -- lightness of being.

The misogi of Aikido practice develops this same acceptance of conflict AS IT IS, not what we fear it to be, or desire to avoid. Acceptance, is the predicate to ending the cause of it, rather than just perpetually fleeing or fighting the consequences of it.

Cordially,
Erick Mead
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Old 10-04-2005, 12:32 PM   #45
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Re: aikido and christianism

Thanks for the comments Erick!
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Old 10-04-2005, 03:07 PM   #46
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Re: aikido and christianism

Jeff,
Can you tell me the name of the book on Taoism and Christianity? I'm studying Taoist meditation and am a Christian, so would like to check it out. Right now I'm keeping them separate.

Thanks,
Eric
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Old 10-04-2005, 03:34 PM   #47
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Re: aikido and christianism

Quote:
Jamara wrote:
cos there ain't no such word as "christianism"
Quote:
Mike Fugate wrote:
I was going to correct that, but you beat me to it. lol.
Guys, just for your information.. This is a pretty international forum, and its generally considered a little rude to be too picky about someone's english when it clearly isn't their first language.
Just so's you know.
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Old 10-04-2005, 03:47 PM   #48
Erick Mead
 
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Re: aikido and christianism

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
Jeff,
Can you tell me the name of the book on Taoism and Christianity? I'm studying Taoist meditation and am a Christian, so would like to check it out. Right now I'm keeping them separate.

Thanks,
Eric
I am not Jeff -- but I play one on TV...

He may be referring to "The Jesus Sutras" by Martin Palmer and an international team of translators. Part travelogue, scholarly translation of primary source documents and in-depth cultural and historical context all wrapped up in one book.

Highly recommended. The last and most mature of the primary documents translated is a stunning and hauntingly evocative expression of the Spirit.

If Jeff was referring to something else, apologies in advance, and please tell us about that one, too ...

Cordially,
Erick Mead
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Old 10-04-2005, 08:45 PM   #49
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Re: aikido and christianism

Great posts, Mr. Mazzeratti!
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Old 10-23-2005, 12:42 PM   #50
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Re: aikido and christianism

Hello to all who will read this.
Thanks, Alan, my brother. I think Erick Mead wrote this:
"Original sin -- Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, so the story goes. In so doing they knew the distinction between Good and Evil, themselves and God, and between male and female and human and non-human. The sin lay not in knowledge of the distinction but in assuming an unreal separation between them."
Just to clarify one point that to me is very obvious. The original sin was not from Adam or Eve, but from Satan, when he was known by the name of Lucifer, and he decided that he would become like God. (Isaiah 14:12-15) "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit."
This verse speaks of the first sin- pride. The first sin committed on earth was, of course, Adam and Eve's sin of Disobediance. They disobeyed the Lord God and for their disobediance, they were punished. But did you know that sin was not taken into account until God gave the law to Moses? Romans 5:12-14 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." So the law came, holding man accountable for his sins, but still people fell. So what was the purpose of the law then? verse 20: "The law was added so that the trespass might increase." Well why would God do that? Why would He stack the deck against mankind? Then when Jesus came, he addressed the self-righteous problem of Israel. Most people could control their outward acts of sin, such as not committing murder or adultary, but Jesus said that this wasn't enough. He addressed the internal problem as well. Matthew 5:27-29 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." It's no wonder then...Mark 10:26 "The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?" The answer is simple: Jesus is the only way. He kept the laws, fulfilled prophecy, then willingly took up the cross, took the sins of the world, and died, becoming the perfect sacrifice once and for all. People decieve themselves when they believe that there are ways for them to become "better" in the sight of God. This lie can be traced back to the original sin that we can do something on our part to earn a place in the Kingdom. Jesus said it very clearly on several occasions. John 14:6-7 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."[/i] John 3:15-17 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. This is the answer to eternal life, abundant life, and freedom in life. Nothing that we do could possibly add to what was done for us.
In Him,
Matthew

Last edited by mazmonsters : 10-23-2005 at 12:47 PM.
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