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Old 09-18-2005, 02:26 PM   #51
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Yup,

Actually, the post I made on Bullshido was more or less becuse I didn't want to get into the philisophical "meat" of things.
The A - un, concept is (from my experience so far) something uniquely japanese, and something that is related to the chinese in-you/yin-yang concept. In fact his whole training method is based on the "A-un" idea of "Imashime" at the points of extremity. "A-un" relates directly to the japanese koryu concepts of "Ten-Chi-Jin."
While the rambling above may at first glance seem like "esoteric" bs, it actually is very firmly grounded within the physical exercises, and relates directly to the system martially. Of course, it only begins to make sense if you do the exercises physically.

Rob
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Old 09-18-2005, 02:31 PM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Hi Rob:

Actually, I think you'll find that A-Un is just the Japanese way of saying "Om" and the "Heaven-Earth" powers derive either from Chinese or even possibly from India, ultimately. I'm not sure about the India part of the Heaven-Earth thing, but certainly "Yin Yang" and "Heaven - Earth" apply to much the same thing in the Chinese useage. "Heaven-Earth", etc., is found in the Hua Ting writings.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-18-2005, 02:38 PM   #53
Upyu
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Thanks for the input MIke

I'm a little weak on the concept of "yin yang" other than as it "traditionally" applies to Tai chi...
But Akuzawa's stressing has been making me go back and consider what the concepts mean physically, and how they affect you.
I used to consider this stuff a "side" to the systems, but lately I've realized how much you grasp these "ideas" also relates to how quickly you can bring results into practice (at least for myself anyways)

You two would most certainly hit it off thought ^^;

Rob
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Old 09-18-2005, 02:53 PM   #54
Mike Sigman
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Hi Rob:

I guese the "Yin Yang" thing is just so vague and so generally applied that I sort of shrug off applying it to any one thing. The Yin Yang god-statues of Japan apparently mean that these skills may have been pretty widespread at one time or at least considered very sacred. Since they're obviously Buddhist derived, you can follow the drift of "maybe's".

The one thought my mind keeps going back to is the Boddhidharma stuff about when these body skills came to China. From everything I'm reading, I think we may be missing when these skills came both to China and to Japan... at least it warrants a little more research. Does any of this have any substantive bearing to the discussion at hand? Only in this way..... Yin and Yang refers to Open and Close. Open is powered by the ground; Close is powered by the "weight" and the ki/fascia thing. That's why the A-Un relationship is talked about so much.

Thanks for all the great input, Rob.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-19-2005, 08:32 AM   #55
seph
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

i would really love a link or something that could expalin to me what Ki is in depth, im a aikido nwb . btw i honestly believe this stuff is possible, i went to a hypnotism show once, and one of the subjects were put into a deep sonabolic trance and they were told they could hold a chair on the enbd of their finger with their arm oustretched. they did it, they were then told that they could not drop the chair, someone then sat in it and they were still holding it on the tip of their finger.
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Old 10-19-2005, 04:32 PM   #56
Upyu
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Do a search for Mike Sigman and Kokyu or Ki on this forum and I think you'll get more than enough resources to get you started.

The ongoing discussion on the Aikido Journal site is also pretty concrete in how some of the members define Kokyu/Ki skills

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1045
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Old 11-13-2005, 09:11 AM   #57
Mat Hill
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Evening all.

Hi Rob, and anyone else who's interested in this thread. Sorry about dredging it up again, but just found it by accident. I don't come here very often...

Gather from this that Akuzawa is in the States about now, so maybe there is (will be) a thread reprting on his seminar.

Anyway, I trained with Akuzawa too for about 4 months, and I've rolled hands with Rob John and another couple of Akuzawa's students frequently. The only reason I'm not at Akuzawa's now is because I work on the nights that he has his class

I've had 15 years' experience of aikido, gaining shodan ten years ago with a dojo in the UK which has all sorts of good teachers (we'll pass over the bad!) including several from security and LEOs, including LEO instructors, plus some very good weapons guys. I've also trained with one of Ueshiba's direct students in a dojo here in Japan. I have maybe 4 years' experience or so in kendo and some kenjutsu... 9 years' experience of wing chun kungfu (which for those of you who have experienced it has some similar power transfer principles to aiki) - including seminars with one of Wong Shun Leung's direct student and one of Yip Man's sons... three years tai chi, karate, etc, plus now over a year's MMA (boxing, muay thai, B/JJJ, and Graeco-Roman with an ex-world champion pro shooto fighter).

Now, I'm not giving you those credentials to blow my own trumpet or to try and convince you that I know what I'm talking about or can do any of the things my teachers can ( ), but just to give you some idea that I've experienced a lot of MA, good and bad... I don't take BS, and I hope I don't give it!

Akuzawa is possibly the best teacher I've met. This is not only in terms of his ability but also his ability to transmit those skills in class. He has benefitted my wing chun principles and sharpened up my MMA core training. I have used his principles in full-contact sparring against pro-fighters and in different friendly semi-contact and Chinese style rolling hands exercises, and I have to say, I only know a tiny tiny fraction of what he does and do not claim to have any great in-depth grasp of the depths of what he teaches.

I can honestly say, any teacher of aiki-based arts would have the most to learn from him.

By the way, those who know me know I'm not given to hero-worship, and in fact I am brutally frank and somewhat rude (albeit hopefully in a good-humoured way...!) in 'real-life' if I smell a rat (eh, Rob?!).

I'm not convinced that Akuzawa's teaching are so distinct from other aiki I've come across but maybe I've been lucky in my teachers... but I have to say that where most teachers would say 'This is this principle and this is that...' and spend a long time talking about it before demonstrating it just couple of on a trained monkey (er, sorry, I mean an experienced uke...! ), Akuzawa demonstrates effectively and in a live resistance setting (although he can do it just as well from static).

For the person (Mike Sigman was it?) asking if there was any way you could practice with an aim to gaining any of Akuzawa's specific insight, I'd have to agree with Rob and say it would be next to impossible, but that if you ever did kokyuu dosa again and again a hundred or so times, without doing an unbalance/finish at the end and can translate that into a centre-to-centre connection, or a strike from your core into your opponent's centre, ie kuzushi or maybe a 'chum' in the strike... you were on the right lines of one aspect of his training.

If you can get Rob to explain the manji exercise to you (I'm going to bed and may not be back on this board for another few months!!!), that would help with the kokyuu dosa part of the training. It seems to be the core exercise reaches the parts the rowing exercise and the shomen ate and the ikkyou exercises seem to miss...

BTW FWIW I can vouch for Rob's testimony of the finger throws... well, I've never seen or experienced what I'd call a throw from Akuzawa's pinky, but I have been knocked back a good couple of feet, and have felt a similar knock-back when I tried to sweep and roundhouse his legs from under him.

Never seen the projection from a lying position either... so I'm afraid I'd have to put my sceptic's hat back on for that one even having experienced some of Akuzawa's other skills. However, my sceptic's hat is famous for being next to my dunce-cap, so if you can, get a look at this guy when he goes to the States.

As for transmission to his students, as I said, I can't go to his classes but my skills have markedly improved from practising some of his core exercises. And last time I rolled with Rob (which had been after a period of a few months of not meeting him) I have to say he had improved a whole lot. Maybe one day he'll be able to do something to me!!! LOL.

BTW Rob, Mike is on the money about Aun. It's the Japanese version of Om, although to confuse matters it does include a native shinto root also. The 'A' mouth position of the fudomyou and the 'Un' (closed) mouth position signify the beginning/end, alpha/omega, raijin/fuujin etc. Originally the E-To kiai of kendo came from the same root, and it can be traced not only through yin yang but also the five elements as found on the five-level stele in traditional Japanese gravestones. The 'A' then relates to earth and the 'Un' to void/air. Relating this back to breathing in many Chinese systems it completes the microcosmic orbit. If that floats your boat. You know me, I just like hitting things!
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Old 11-13-2005, 03:15 PM   #58
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Long time Matt!
Good to hear you're alive and kicking
After all, fresh bait is always more interesting right? (jk)
MMA is starting to look really tempting now that things are starting to fall in place. But one step at a time I guess.

We're going to have to roll hands sometime in the near future ^^
I gotz some skillz 2 pwn ur newly beefed up mma ass w/
lol



About the seminar, I think a few people already wrote asking about it to which I responded, but for those that were holding their breath for the review, the thing tanked.
Or rather I should say it was postponed due to various reasons (not the smallest being a ridiculous 150$ fuel tax being imposed on international flights O_o Thank you Bush)

A seminar will definitely happen though, grrr.
I'm currently in talks of having one happen either on the west coast, or europe?? if all goes well.

And Matt,
I know you can't make it, but drag some big mma beefcake over to aunkai.
It'll make things more interesting ^^

PS
The ground projection thing isn't that hard...
Think about doing kokyu dosa, but from the ground. If you realize how to stand, it's actually a piece of cake (well not really, but you might get some new insights on the ground game). I just need some resisting opponents to refine this stuff on...
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Old 11-20-2005, 09:18 AM   #59
DH
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Rob
with ground work,remember that you will not be at an advantage simply by pinning and them not being able to rise. They will be redirecting as well and if it just meets and cancels out it will be labeled "a stall." I most of todays venues you will then have to stand and re-start. As well, the cancellation of punches and being abe to absorb will be of relative value at best. At the end of the day you will need to be able to "knock out"-not stun-but knock out someone who is active and dodging and feinting, while they are attempting the same on you. Throws and locks may be easier to manage than other things but I caution you that unless you are training this way...don't go there.

If you want to make a seminar or training that is worthwhile TO YOU. Instead or just rolling out your teacher to say "here look at this." Visit the Militic camp or team quest and ask them to fight.
When you get out of hospital care. go back and train some more. When you are ready.... go back and experiment some more. I am confidant that you will arrive at something worthwhile. Whether or not it still looks like what you are doing now I will leave open. I find it very doubtful that your teacher will be able to withstand this level of sustained agression, and then......this is key Robert...be able to absorb it -and- knock out the opponent.

Aiki and body work is compelling but often the training becomes self-feeding and insular. Don't EVER make the mistake of thinking you are getting better because of what you can do to class mates.....ever. It's what you can do to those who do not know the shapes or the "feel" and who will attack you with non committed fients and unconvenional rhythms and moves that are your test of you and what you do.
If I had a nickel for every Dojo "king" and bully boy I have played with who basicaly said "What the F#$%!" I am the best in my school-you went right through me." Don't be those guys! Train outside your school wth those who like to fight.There are men who can deliver and many who cannot.
You will need capable men who are not MARTAL ARTISTS to come to your dojo, train in your dojo and be in your face- headhunting you, and training you, for years before you are ready for a world class international level of MMA challenge.

I end with one word of advice. IF you keep saying you want to use what you are doing in this_______ field of endevour. Pretty soon everyone will call you on it and ask why you are not. Exprienced MMA think very little of these aiki and body work skills. Jusifiably so! They have seen it fail before. You are not getting interest from the crowd you want because most see it for what it is-insular training-not fighting.

Quite frankly I would happily train with you on the one hand to see what you guys are doing, but I am sure that on the other hand- once you asked me to flip my switch to "on" and "actually" fight-you would be overwhelmed. Find 4 or 5 real Sh!t-kicking head-hunters with expierence and dance with them first and then keep refining.

Good luck though, and don't stop. Maybe you'll be on to something in the end. I do hope you realize I am FOR you and your teacher in what you are attempting and not panning your efforts in the least.

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-20-2005 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 11-20-2005, 05:06 PM   #60
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Rob
with ground work,remember that you will not be at an advantage simply by pinning and them not being able to rise. They will be redirecting as well and if it just meets and cancels out it will be labeled "a stall."
Sorry, seems you misunderstood what I was talking about. Not that it would take away from the main thrust of your post ^^;
The stuff that he's doing seems to make for a quicker/easier way to get submissions/locks (not just pinning) than might be available now. One more thing I might want to make clear, what he does isn't "aiki" and "aiki bodywork", though since this is an aiki forum, posting it as such makes it easier to explain.
His body work is also all for developing strikes that you can do from pretty much any position, w/little no telegraphing that can potentially knock you out.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I find it very doubtful that your teacher will be able to withstand this level of sustained agression, and then......this is key Robert...be able to absorb it -and- knock out the opponent.
Understand you skepticim, been there, and trust me, you have to meet him Btw, those videos you saw, were by no means representative of what he actually does in class )
He's already been down the MMA thing himself, and none of the Shooto peeps want to have anything to do with him.

The only reason I'm not afraid to mouth off about this is because he was/is still looking for those types of people to join the class.

As for the reality dose, I don't take any offense to your comments, I totally understand where your coming from. And trust me I'm nowhere near satisfied with just being able to handle a couple of kids in the Dojo that're getting ok. Even Ark (Akuzawa) is starting to push me to join a submission/shooto gym to start getting my knocks and exp. <matt?? >

Hopefully we'll get a chance to train at some point. I'm pretty sure you'll be in for a treat when you get to touch hands w/ him

Rob
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Old 11-20-2005, 09:19 PM   #61
roosvelt
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Rob
with ground work,remember that you will not be at an advantage simply by pinning and them not being able to rise. They will be redirecting as well and if it just meets and cancels out it will be labeled "a stall." I most of todays venues you will then have to stand and re-start.
Dan
Is this the same Daniel Harden who argued about Ki with Mike Sigman in the aikidojournal.com?

You don't really believe Ki after all.
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Old 11-20-2005, 09:34 PM   #62
Upyu
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Is this the same Daniel Harden who argued about Ki with Mike Sigman in the aikidojournal.com?

You don't really believe Ki after all.
The differences in understandings about aiki/bodywork/mechanics etc is really besides the issue, and the point he brought up is a valid one (I think).

Applying any of this stuff in a live setting is a whole different beast, even if you take into account the "flipped" mindset mentioned in the Aikidojournal discussion. It still has to be applicable under pressure. There's people that possess tremendous body skill, and that can do amazing things ( in many different arts, CMA, JMA etc) within a class/dojo-geiko setting. Whether those same people can do the same in a different setting can be entirely questionable.
That still doesn't detract at all from the skill level they've attained. It just means that haven't 工夫'd (adapted) it to that particular venue.
And like anything else, it takes time, blood and sweat.

JM2C
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Old 11-20-2005, 10:02 PM   #63
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

filegone. Wot a stoopid name for a file sharing site. Especially when I click on the links, the files are not there. All I get is redirected back to http://www.filegone.com

None of the direct links you posted in the Bullshido thread worked either.

filegone. Where all your uploaded files are gone?... I dunno. Gone.... file gone.

Ignatius
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:15 AM   #64
DH
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Is this the same Daniel Harden who argued about Ki with Mike Sigman in the aikidojournal.com?

You don't really believe Ki after all.



No, actually I don't.

Mike and I weren't arguing. We were discussing/debating the correlation between the internal body work of two DR schools with the internal work of 'some" CMA arts. Discussions were over how we balance and stand, whether or not there was solo work-heck I still live it 24/7- and the use of the stick in training. By the way...overall we agreed whole heartedly and so does Rob-that the internal work is where it as.
That said, most people have no clue just what that really means. As for Ki and chi? NO I don't think its a booga, booga, energy. Rather that it is natural physical energy in the body and the use of it.

Rob
I -am- talking about the same stuff bud! No. not just pinning but the whole thing. The non-telegraphing 1" punch is a small example. Hve ya noticed many talk about it-but their punch is a fizzle? We practice hard body shots with it and I train daily on a post in sumo style. I am sure you know the power is not in the hand and thus it can be done lying down, bottom or top it also lets you set in chokes very well. I was more wandering about you in that you have to get out and fight. "Work on your chops" as it were. Too many guys do Aiki tricks with no real hope of making it something they can apply against a trained fighter.

As for terminology we can and do the "throw someone off your arm trick" while lying down, we also have them kneel on our arms (much harder) but we call it "applying aiki." It Others call it something else. the gound connection but also the "path " that is the reality. We use "Aiki" punches from static connections -it really doesn't have to be any distance away. but I would bet the way we do it internally is the same. I find it highly immprobable that we are getting the same results with drastically different methods.
My comments were only that it all needs to be done with a trained MMA fighter to gain validity. I think we agree that if ya aint...ya aint.

I am sure, or at least hopeful, we will train together as well. I just don't think I am going to be as "blown away" by Akuzawa as you may believe. Quite frankly I think it will be all too familiar. I am also sure I would be a handful for him. But I don't consider that to be a true measure as I will be doing to him what he is doing to me! The reason being the reality would be our own trainng to absorb these types of punches in the body while repsponding in an equal time frame with the same punches given. I am more interested in the exchenges at full speed which is what we do. We don't block. our punch is our block and they exchanges are an interchange. We don't trap, we just strike with a misdirection. As for locks- our training to be unlockable to all efforts -to be- locked in the same manner I believe he has realized for setting locks will be interesting. As it is, we just stalemate every attempt. I have done this with all manner of people in Aikido up to 8th dans and to several in Aikijujutsu who simply could not lock me at all... period. When I let them, I simply undid it. The skills are replicable, meaning they can be taught they are just simply not well known. To this day I remain amazed at so many who keep concentating on their hands and arms-missing their real power.

As Mike Sigman noted I have been talking about this very same stuff on the net for almost ten years with many people getting pissed but right up to last month I offered my arm to an Aikidoka and simply said lock me. When they collapsed at my feet and asked what that was. I winked and said "True Aikido." When asked what rank I was in Aikido I said "I don't do Aikido."
I am thrilled that others are comng out of the wood work with body work principles as the key to undoing all this martial art "technique junkie" crap that people are focusing on every day. My hats off to ya
and I am happy to see that you were polite (like me) when you announced it and people openly slammed you for it.
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-22-2005 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:02 AM   #65
dbotari
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Dan,

Where do you train currently? I sometimes travel to the States and would be interested in watching or training in a class (if so permitted). The conversations you, Mike and Rob have had piqued my interest in the internal arts. I've done some reading around the subject and now am interested in witnessing and feeling the techniques.

Regards,

Dan Botari
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Old 11-22-2005, 03:22 PM   #66
Upyu
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I -am- talking about the same stuff bud! No. not just pinning but the whole thing. The non-telegraphing 1" punch is a small example. Hve ya noticed many talk about it-but their punch is a fizzle? We practice hard body shots with it and I train daily on a post in sumo style. I am sure you know the power is not in the hand and thus it can be done lying down, bottom or top it also lets you set in chokes very well. I was more wandering about you in that you have to get out and fight. "Work on your chops" as it were. Too many guys do Aiki tricks with no real hope of making it something they can apply against a trained fighter.
Sup!
Didn't mean to imply that you weren't implying the same "stuff", just that I think the direction I'm headed is more or less the one you're already going down I thought you meant I was only interested in pinning/holding the opponent down, which,like you said is next to useless in the mentioned venues.

I totally agree with you on the tricks, and its something that's iterated in the class. (FWIW Ark doesn't teach these skills through these tricks He just does them occasionally to show that the stuff we're working on is the same stuff you see in xxx trick you see in xxx style)

But I'm glad to find out someone else out there is working the body in a similar fashion! So you do Sumo exercisesi too
Just curious, do you work out w/ Shiko fumi too?
I've only just started (as in a year or so into it, of doing it regularly) but I can understand why it was so valued by Sagawa.
The stick training, is it spear training? (Ark bases his strikes off of the body skill from this, tho not necessarily in form)



And the one inch/many inch etc strikes, I agree w/ you there. A lot of people talk, but not many can deliver.

Nah, I don't think you'll be blown away by Akuzawa, if like you say, you talk the talk and walk the walk (Btw, no slight intended)
but, you'll prolly hit it off in exchanging tanren methods etc.

The pure aiki exercises are fine for developing the bodyskill to a certain degree, But for hitting a moving target etc, I think it'd take numerous modifications to instill a "core" suitable for mma.
Akuzawa has his own methods he's experimenting with right now, (with us as his guinae pigs), but overall I think it'll be more effective in that kind of setting.

About your comment on the locks and so forth,
Btw, I was over at Abe-sensei's place a couple of weeks ago, and I have to say, no one had the "touch". Either they were really "strong" (Iwama style I think, I'm not really up to date on the different aiki branches), or a couple had structure here and there. What was most dissapointing was that no one could "break" my core, and realize I was still free to "move".
I still even severely question Abe-sensei since at the beginning of the first class he had me hold his arm, and he tried to do something (while I kept intention in my spine). Nothing happened, and after about 2-3 times of him twitching his arm, I just "fell" in the intention of keeping the class going.

I distinctly remember several of the senior students being more than slightly annoyed with me since none of their "tricks" would work. One person even went so far to say that I had too much "foward force" when I simply "equalized" and sent his force back into him during an agete exercise.

The years of training are really meaningless, its how you train, and the resulting "foundation" that your body has built up.
FWIW
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:00 PM   #67
Mike Sigman
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

I don't know Rob from Adam's Offside Ox but what he's saying is straightforward and understandable in terms of these kinds of skills. He's making comments and telling *how* they're done, being careful to make sure his comments are outside of the "spinning yarns" arena. I'd like to see everyone talking in the same fashion, sooner or later. The ones that know will know who knows.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-23-2005, 01:20 AM   #68
Eddie deGuzman
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Hey Aikidoka,

All of the information in this thread is quite interesting. I know none of these teachers and am very unfamiliar with the ki tricks that you are all speaking off. I am even unfamiliar with many of the martial arts/venues mentioned. Many things have changed since I first left the U.S. in 1994.

I studied karate-doh and aikido in the U.S. for 10 years then came to Japan. I've studied aikido here for about 5 years or so total and a year of iaido. Before I came to Japan, there was no internet, so I am amazed at the amount of knowledge currently available and shared. I envy the new generation of martial artists.

In the dojo in which I train, my first day, I couldn't move. Not one inch when grabbed. But I was thrown quite easily. I stayed to figure out what was going on. I spoke no Japanese and learning was/is a slow process. I often thought I was being discriminated against, picked on or that they just didn't want to tell me what ki was. It was all so vague, language barrier aside. But over time, a long time, a long slow time, I have started to realize what is going on. Then again, I could just be slow.

Strictly my perspective, of course, but it seems to me, in my dojo, there are those whose style is hard, and those whose style is soft. This may sound strange since we all study together. The soft style practitioners, to me, seem to have a better understanding of ki. And the hard style practitioners, to me, have less of an understanding of ki. There are at least 6 7th dans in my dojo, my sensei being 8th. And, although he is not famous, was taught by Ueshiba the senior-ist. He is 77 years old. We are Aikikai, yet somewhat removed(the island of Kyushu).

Ki, kokyu, aiki-age, one finger throws, rising from a flat pin and no hand throws. I have seen them and felt them and, at times, have done them. (Alas, the no hand throw eludes me.) It is not a Japanese thing. I speak more Japanese now, after 11 years in Japan, and can converse fairly well. And I have asked the question almost every class, what is ki and kokyu, etc. The answer, in my dojo, is that no one really knows. Yet, still, some have come to understand how to move better, be it efficiency or manipulation of ki or something else unearthly.

There are others who have studied longer than me and they have no clue about kokyu/ki/etc. The higher ranks try to explain, but it just doesn't sink in and so they simply give up the search. Yet they continue to train. We practice in pairs and rotate after a time. There are those who practice with ki/kokyu/etc. with me, and those who do not. The former of which are fewer. There are higher ranks, too, who can do, yet don't understand and can't explain.

That said, to me, there are several things I try to work on to mimic what is being done to me. It is part physical, part internal. The words and concepts I've read here before, but everyone has 2 yen.

Posture, balance, relaxation, center, joining, harmonized movement, single point, breathing, avoidance, unbalancing, re-direction, extension, visualization, effortless movement. Not necessarily in that order. These are words that have been used to explain ki/kokyu/etc. to me.

But as you all know, it is best summed up by feeling it. And as a feeling, it is difficult to describe. For what one person feels may be described by another person in other words, concepts, visualizations, etc. With so many things going on, it's no wonder people give up trying to understand it or doubt its existence.

An open mind, a good teacher and a whole lotta mat slapping time will help.

Good journey and Happy Thanksgiving!
Eddie
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Old 11-23-2005, 03:05 PM   #69
Roy Dean
 
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

The ones who know may know who knows, but some of us don't know much. So we need this stuff proven, or shown to us. Just as Royce Gracie proved the effectiveness of his family's Jiu-Jitsu style against a variety of styles, at full speed, with full contact, on video for all the world to see, I would have to actually see the effectiveness of these body skills against a skilled and resistant attacker. Otherwise, how can those of us who don't know learn the value of this information?

I've felt some amazing things from skilled aiki practioners over the years, but when it comes down to it, none of them would stand a chance against a Rich Franklin or George St. Pierre or BJ Penn. It's one thing to smoothly and quickly off balance an opponent, or neutralize a directed attack, or even apply a joint lock, but a fight is a continuous flow of these actions, and none guarantees a successful outcome. Skilled fighters may lose their balance, have their best techniques thwarted, and even come amazingly close to being submitted, but they can also escape inferior positions, continuously attack, and reverse submissions into submissions of their own. The (very) few clips of Akuzawa that I've seen lead me to believe that while the principles/techniques demonstrated are a good start to finishing a fight, it's a far cry from what's necessary to get the job done.

Throwing a high level judoka or wrestler with your pinky? I'd need to see it on video. A powerful short punch is a good tool, but what use would it be if you can't connect with your opponent? (see the UFC's recent main event, Rich Franklin vs. Nate Quarry. Quarry had heavy hands, and had ended his last 3 fights by first round knockout. Rich Franklin handed him the same fate, through beautiful footwork and slick combinations. Nate's one big punch never landed.)

This is an interesting topic, but I have a feeling that if Akuzawa, (or even you, Robert John, since you like to drop by schools and test out their stuff) rolled into a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu school and tested his wares, he would be featured on the next installment of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in Action Volume 3. I could be wrong though. And I'd love for it to be proven.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
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Old 11-23-2005, 05:35 PM   #70
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
I would have to actually see the effectiveness of these body skills against a skilled and resistant attacker. Otherwise, how can those of us who don't know learn the value of this information?

I've felt some amazing things from skilled aiki practioners over the years, but when it comes down to it, none of them would stand a chance against a Rich Franklin or George St. Pierre or BJ Penn. It's one thing to smoothly and quickly off balance an opponent, or neutralize a directed attack, or even apply a joint lock, but a fight is a continuous flow of these actions, and none guarantees a successful outcome.

The (very) few clips of Akuzawa that I've seen lead me to believe that while the principles/techniques demonstrated are a good start to finishing a fight, it's a far cry from what's necessary to get the job done.
Let me say first, I agree with all your points. But, if you read my B.S. Posts then you'll see that I mentioned that none of those clips are representative of how he moves in an actual fight.
They're just done that way because it's the easiest to see how certain principals are kept, even in movement, striking, grappling whatever.
Another thing is, posting video of him fighting wouldn't really do much other than satisfy the video geeks that simply want to see style on style etc.
He's trying to teach a different kind of bodyskill, nothing more nothing less. Though he isn't afraid for anyone to call him on it. So if someone wants to step up onto his turf, by all means. (None of the shooto guys over here in Japan want anything to do with him. He had a bad reputation over here about 8 years back since he tended to send his full contact students to the hospital)
Basically he's been there, done that. The only reason he's being promoted is because I'm trying to get some bigger guys into our class, with the kind of experience you mention, because like you said unless you can modify and adapt your body skill for this venue, it is something that will work only under a fairly "controlled" basis.
It's not because he himself really wants to be promoted

If you're ever in Tokyo Roy, you should drop by
I've encountered my fair share of people from TMAs that claimed that they could put up under pressure, but I always had my doubts(since I originally came from the school of hard knocks too). This guy though, you'd have to feel, and touch hands with, you'd have your doubts cleared instantaneously

Besides, what fun is it to just watch other people roll? Always more fun to get down and dirty yourself
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Old 11-23-2005, 08:09 PM   #71
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

"Another thing is, posting video of him fighting wouldn't really do much other than satisfy the video geeks that simply want to see style on style etc."

I would disagree. A single clip of an effective demonstration would have guys flocking to your dojo, far better than long posts on various MA websites. People flew into Gracie Torrance in California (and into Brazil, for that matter) from all over the world to learn BJJ, after the effectiveness had been shown. Actions definitely attract stronger than words...

"(None of the shooto guys over here in Japan want anything to do with him. He had a bad reputation over here about 8 years back since he tended to send his full contact students to the hospital)"

You've mentioned this a few times. And the Shooto organization didn't try to recruit him? Or Pancrase? Or Pride? They're willing to pay foreign fighters tens of thousands of dollars, and have international tryouts for their organizations, but refuse to bring in a native son because he's too dangerous? Did the Shooto guys relay this information to you? How did you hear about this?

"Besides, what fun is it to just watch other people roll? Always more fun to get down and dirty yourself"

Personally, I love watching martial arts videos. There is SO MUCH to be learned, especially if you're a visual learner, and have a solid skill base to build on. Mark Laimon, BJJ blackbelt and submission trainer to many well known MMA guys, stated that once he started watching videos of the top BJJ guys, that his own game started to soar. Much of his learning was done off videos, and for many, that's all they have. I've spent hours and hours watching and analyzing tournament footage, seeing what works for what body types, counters and reversals, etc. If you want to be a champion, or even compete at a high level, watching video is mandatory (Football, boxing, MMA, etc). Exposure is not experience, but is does increase your awareness greatly.

I must say that seeing is one thing, feeling is another. Pressure can never be seen, so any video is far from definitive.

Out of curiosity, have you ever rolled with a really good BJJ or Judo player, or a division 1 wrestler? Could these body skills be applied to those specific domains?

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
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Old 11-23-2005, 08:42 PM   #72
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

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Roy Dean wrote:
I would disagree. A single clip of an effective demonstration would have guys flocking to your dojo, far better than long posts on various MA websites.

You've mentioned this a few times. And the Shooto organization didn't try to recruit him? Or Pancrase? Or Pride? They're willing to pay foreign fighters tens of thousands of dollars, and have international tryouts for their organizations, but refuse to bring in a native son because he's too dangerous? Did the Shooto guys relay this information to you? How did you hear about this?
Lol, dude I understrand your skepticism. If you touch hands with him, youll probably understand why they didnt want to recruit him. It doesnt make for a good show ( i know that sounds like a typical TMA copout). That non-withstanding, he doesnt have much interest in the mma world. For him the sport of choice is Sanda.

The kid Luan over on BS has already been over and trains regularly in MuayThai/BJJ, so his review should provide an objective viewpoint.
We have a guy that made it to the Finals in Kyokushin, and nothing he threw seemed to have much effect. His hardest shots nonwithstanding. Fortunately he stuck to the class and his strikes are already becoming more penetrating in nature.

As for myself, yea Ive rolled with fairly good amateur Judo guys (whose ground game sucks compared to BJJ i think), and I have to say, two years in his class if your body starts to "change" will probably allow you to roll with people with about twice the years in experience. Im not sa;ying he"s the "uber". But the way he trains your body will allow you to do techniques on the ground that you probably wouldnt expect from someone that doesnt train regularly on the ground.
As for the rest, div 1 wrestler etc, thats my aim
Make this stuff work no matter whats thrown in your face.

Dude, we'll most likely be going by Cali in the summer, so if your game we should roll Arks got an open arms policy to doing the same as well.

Funny thing about a lot of the MMAers from BS, even in Tokyo, for all their catcalling, no ones willing to call BS and show up
All I get from them is excuse after excuse.
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Old 11-24-2005, 01:00 AM   #73
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

PS Unless I wasn't clear enough, yes the bodyskills (as far as i've found) directly apply both in the standup & Ground game
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Old 11-28-2005, 12:03 PM   #74
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Robert,

I would welcome the opportunity to share techniques and roll with you, and your instructor. If you're in Southern California, San Diego is a great place to stop for a few days. Best weather in the world, and multiple Aikido dojo's, including Sunset Cliffs Aikido, San Diego Aikikai, Aikido of Mission Valley, and Jiai Aikido. With the right calls, you could probably set up a seminar, no problem.

Could be fun! Let me know if swinging by SoCal is going to be logistically possible, and drop me a line when the date draws near.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

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Old 11-28-2005, 06:41 PM   #75
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

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Roy Dean wrote:
Best weather in the world, and multiple Aikido dojo's, including Sunset Cliffs Aikido, San Diego Aikikai, Aikido of Mission Valley, and Jiai Aikido. With the right calls, you could probably set up a seminar, no problem.

www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com
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No arguments with you there I used to goto Torrey Pines HS, I miss So Cal weather so much... mexican food, the beach, the girls

I definitely need to head out to So Cal by next year so I'll be in touch
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