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Old 05-28-2001, 06:06 PM   #26
giriasis
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
it is a lot harder to change the predators, even more difficult to rid the entire world of them. The best defense against them is to change the behavior of their prey. [/b]
Your right the best defense against them is to change the behavior of the prey, but as long as there is a predator it will search for prey and make some if it has, too. Predators don't die meekly.

We can address the predators actions through civil and criminal law. The predators are the ones responsible for the injuries they cause. A victims is not at fault for being vulnerable position in their life. Stop blaming the victim. Yes, victims need help, but if they don't realize they are in a bad position then why should they leave?

Now, I will agree the the "victim mentality" does exist. What I mean by "victim mentality" is that there are people who play the role as an excuse not to get better. This is wrong behavior. It is dysfunction and I will support you wholeheartedly in telling them to shipshape or ship out. But this is different from a real victim. A real victim can not necessarily help themselves out. A real victim has suffered a harm and is yet to reach the point where they can bring resolution to their problems.

Taking advantage of their power does not just involve "you do this and I'll promote" it also includes a hostile atmosphere towards the women. The first is usually clear and cut. It is the second that is more subtle and harder to see and prove. (the proof is substantial and severe offensive behavior -- for sexual harassment in the workplace) But this guy still is in a position of authority -- a sensei over a student. Anon's case seems to come closer to the later. She found the behavior offensive because she said "no" the first time and then he still made advances. She wants to study aikido and she doesn't have many options in her area in places to go to train. If she were in a bigger city the choice of other options would make sense. Maybe she doesn't want to learn another martial art either.

You seem to be questioning or trying to make the point where we draw the line. I am saying that someone who is in a position of authority has power over another person, a subordinate, and that they should not use their position to assert or imply impropriety. A customer in a market place, a person who buys music, or goes to the movie theatre are not subordinates to the marker owner, musician or actor. However, the parishsioners of a paster, the choir members of a choir director, the student of a teacher are subordinants and they should not date. Now, if this relationship should no longer exist then they can date.

Let's go through your hypotheticals...

Quote:
if you feel a sensei should not date any students, then of course you feel a single minister, or church board member, or choir director shouold not date parishoners.
Yes. I believe that is reasonable. I believe as long as that person is in a position of authority over another person, they should not be dating people they have authority over.

But let's break it down. Does a choir director have control over all the parishoners? No, only those who are in the choir or perhaps trying out for the choir. So the relatiohship for comparison would be choir director/ choir member. So the choir director can date a non-choir member.

The minister generally has authority over other members in parish so yes no dating parish members.

And finally the church board members. I'm not sure who they have control over. the answer to that will give you you answer.

Quote:
Also, there should be no dating anyone who owns a business.
Think what you wrote here and think what I wrote. I said people who have position of authority over a subordinant. If the "anyone" is an employee, yes. If the "anyone" is a customer, no. The difference is the amount and the ability of control one has over the other. So a business owner may date their customer.

Hmm, but the problem in martial arts students are very often subordinants as well as customers. So the better parallel would be more like a teacher/ student where the student submits to a certain amount of authority over you.

This has been done in universities, where you can easily drop out of class. For example when I was in undergrad teacher/ student dating was barred by the State of Florida because of the problems that we are discussing at the moment. Potential problems start with what appears to be innocent dating but things get bad once people start saying, "no." If it is discomfort with the sensei, in this case. Your training still is affected.

Quote:
Oh, and no dating anyone who owns a market if you shop there.
Nope, a market owner has very little control over their customers except to prevent shoplifting. So a market owner and customer may date.

Quote:
Hmm, if you listen to a musician, you cannot date them.
You really like slipperly slope arguing don't you? There is absolutely no control of the musician over the person who listens to their music. Of course they can date.

The better analogy for musicians would be the music producer and musicians. The music producer would have some control over the musicians -- the ability to promote themselves and to make a living. Sure they could go elsewhere but they could get blacklisted as well. But this is more like an employer-employee relationship.

Quote:
Also actors whose films you like.
You really have yourself out on limb with this one. I would be lucky to meet any actors I see in movies much less date them. But that actor has no control over me. I have given that actor no control. So hypothetically they can date.

Quote:
The sensei does not have power over anyone who is not in desparate need of counselling, and those folks can create a sense of control that is not there.
The sensei does have control over all of his students and he has a certain amount of responsibility in how her should treat those students. The "power" the sensei has is the knowledge, skill, and abilities that you do not have. The "power" the sensei has is in expecting that people don't question him which is commonly done because people think it has to do with Japanese culture.

When we bow to sensei and say "onegaishimasu" we are saying we respect your authority and please teach us. Of course the screwed up sensei in serious need of counseling will forget to add when he bows to the students, "I promise to respect you and your abilities."

When the respect goes both ways there are no problems. But those who take advantage of what they know and what you don't know will use their female students as a dating mill at best.

You see I have a problem with the sensei in serious need of counseling. In the dojo, they have the authority, and as good students we submit to it because we don't know what they do. Like I said if the respect goes both ways you won't find a student trying to play out their issues in the dojo or find a sensei playing out his issues in the dojo.

If in anon's case this sensei is playing out his issues in the dojo by using his female students as a dating mill rather than actually concerned about what they learn, then I say it is a problem.

I don't think it is the women with the problem, there may be some playing out their issues, but they still do not deserve to be hit upon and used. A good sensei would see this and AVOID such relationships from developing.

When I go to a dojo I don't expect to be hit upon, by the sensei. When I go to work, I don't expect to be hit upon by my boss. When I go to school, I don't expect to be hit upon by my teachers. When I go to church, I don't expect to be hit upon by the pastor. If it happens, of course I say no. But if it continues to happen and that "no" is not respected I have a major problem with that. That sounds to be the case with Anon-- she said "no" and he continued his advances. She asserted herself and addressed the situation. It was clear that it would not resolved. Do I remember correctly that this dojo does not have women past 6th or 5th kyu. That to me is an indicator that this sensei is doing something wrong. How wrong is it? All we know it just is simple impropriety nothing criminal or major enough for civil action.

(As an aside: I believe in some business there is the one "no" rule between co-workers. You may ask some one out once but it must stop at that. But they still can not allow a hostile working environment (serious and substantial offense behavior) to exist.)

Anon might be able to report this to the better business bureau or speak with them and see if any other reports have been filed. Also, Anon, I don't think there is much else you can do unless something more serious is going on. Colleen is right though, you can't help people who don't want it.

[/quote]I just think if we as women (as the complaints came from women) want to be taken seriously, we need to be responsible for our own actions. [/quote]

Of course we should be responsible for our own actions, but we should be respected and treated in a dignified manner as well. And those who wronged us should be held responsible for their actions as well. A womanizer should not be forgiven because some women don't walk away from it.

Anon, one thing I have been told in learning "self-defense" and in preventing potentially bad behaviour is to trust your instincts. We can still and argue the merits of dating or not dating, but that is all hypothetical since we really are not there with you. Follow your gut, it is most likely right. "Women's intuition" is called "women's intuition" for a reason. Or for you guys, that "gut feeling" is called a "gut feeling" for a reason. Trust it.

Good luck,
Anne Marie Giri

 
Old 05-28-2001, 08:48 PM   #27
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I didn't really understand what you just said. Could you explain it again ... in fewer words?

Just kidding Anne Marie! But that was one of the longest posts I've ever seen. You're starting to sound like a **cough** lawyer. I can just hear you in court ... "I know you have reasons for saying that ... do you mind if I ask what they are?" ... just kidding again -- I'm getting you ready for court.

You're right ... now, let's harmonize.

Jim23
 
Old 05-28-2001, 10:47 PM   #28
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how about if the sensi dates and marries a Woman and she later becomes a student of his would this be bad ? ( I am not say ing all senseis are guys ok?) My Sensi married a gal then later she became one of his students. They have a good relationship and the sensi is respecting and gracies to all and never puts his wife above his students. so it can work but in all your glory is it ok in YOUR opioin not fact but opion. well cya gotta play darkstone.

Dallas Adolphsen
 
Old 05-28-2001, 11:19 PM   #29
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Re: Re: slight OT but relevant I think

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23


WHAT??????

These aren't real examples, are they?

I once ran into a smokin', drinkin' sensi (huff-puffing his way through class -- pretty good aikido though). Needless to say, I didn't start training there -- how could I respect someone like that?

Erik, these examples are beyond scary. These people should be kicked out. Period. Why would anyone even want to attend their classes anyway?

A pedofile?? Call the cops in -- let's see if their aikido really works!!

Jim23
Yes, Jim, all real. Bruce Klickstein is one of the names and I'm trying to verify the other but I'm having a hell of a time. The guy has vanished from the Earth, which is just as well. I believe he was named Stephen (or Steven) King and he was based in Watsonville (this part I'm certain of). Yes, just like the author. The courts stepped in and prohibited him from teaching children. If I have the name wrong, I apologize.

John Lamont is also a rather famous example but I spaced him out for some reason.

The other examples mentioned, nearly all of which have cleaned up to my knowledge are not really that unusual. Being stoned and more was not at all uncommon in the 60's and 70's or so I've been told. Some folks just hadn't caught up with the times yet. And do you really think that there are not ample alcoholics in this biz?

I mentioned them because it showed my own stupidity and failings and how hard it is to say something to a sensei, even when it would be for their own good. By the way, I would add that the one's I had direct experience with were also excellent teachers in their own way.

Jim, who would kick them out? There is no standards body overseeing aikido. When was the last time a rep for your organization dropped in and checked if the bathrooms were clean? I'm thinking never. 7-11 has better store standards than what is applied across the aikido community in many cases. Klickstein is an example of someone who was kicked out, however.

Enough, we're heading astray of the topic.

PS: pedofile may have been too strong a term. Child molester would be more accurate.

Last edited by Erik : 05-29-2001 at 10:34 AM.
 
Old 05-29-2001, 01:50 AM   #30
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Jim,

Sorry it was so long. I actually had to edit quite a bit so you were saved from a lot. But this is more than being a verbose lawyer-to-be.

I am actually rather passionate about this issue as well. I really have a sticking point with people who are at fault for this kind of behaviour (all gamuts of questionable claims, fraud and abuse), and I can't tolerate it when people start blaming the victim.

Also when people throw out "what if" scenarios like that I just can't help it. I like doing that to dispel the more unreasonable stances and to show that it won't be the end of the world. Also breaking down the situations like I did can show that it is practical to draw the line somewhere.

Also my passion to defend and my ability to argue/debate lead me to the legal field. So I guess that is reflecting here.

Chocolate Uke,

That is just one of the many reasonable exceptions to the rule -- I had to edit that part out. But as you pointed out he doesn't take advantage of the family relationship, and I am sure he is well aware of the potential downsides. Most sensei, I believe, would do this. It is only the few that ruin it for all.

Anne Marie

Last edited by giriasis : 05-29-2001 at 02:00 AM.
 
Old 05-29-2001, 05:06 AM   #31
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Talking

Hey all, i reckon that as long as the sensei (and the student) leaves their sexual (or whatever) relationship at the dojo door, there should be no problem with it. Peace. Craig
 
Old 05-29-2001, 07:29 AM   #32
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Anne Marie:

I agree. Just because two adults are involved in a relationship does not necessarily imply that it is consensual or healthy. Reference the rates of date rape and spousal abuse. I differ from Colleen in my view of the victim. Clearly, she has never been one, and for that I admire her. But there is still the hint of "blaming the victim" to the posts.

Are there times when victims have taken risks that increase the likelihood that they will be preyed upon? Sure. But that doesn't make it ok for unscrupled authorities to take advantage of this opportunity. In war, sure. In the dojo, in the doctor's office, in the boss's office, no.

So Colleen, I don't suggest that all people stop trying to date all other people. When someone seeks your guidance as an authority (and this does not include your authority regarding this week's special in the produce department) wouldn't it be simple to just seek your partners elsewhere? That way, there can be no role confusion. When did good ethical practice become so difficult?

Rob

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Old 05-29-2001, 01:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by giriasis

Also in regards to the consenting adults issue, whenever someone uses their positition of authority to their advantage the issue is not consent to sex or but the issue is power. Consent no longer becomes an issue because the person being subjugated does not believe they can refuse.

...

What should we do and what rules should be created? Right now, it is up to the individual person and schools. But a rule of a sensei not dating their students while they are members of that dojo is not unreasonable.
With respect, I think your position is ridiculous. Martial arts training is cultivation of power. By virtue of my practice, I am more powerful then 90% of the people I interact with. Are all these people my unwitting victims? Perhaps, if they find out about my cultivation, they will "believe" they cannot refuse me? Would you have me take resposibility for others' mistaken beliefs? Must I then retreat to a secluded cave, to save the masses from my subjugation?

I happen to be 6'0", 175lb. A genetic abnormality made me bigger and stronger then 99% of the women on the planet. Does this make me a sexual predator?

I think, as practicioners dedicated to self-improvement, we ought to be advocating personal responsibility for teachers AND students. We do not need to reinforce the politically correct culture of victimhood.

[Now I calm down and read the previous posts]

Well, I looks as though most of my points have already been stated and debated. If I can hit and throw my seniors and juniors, I can certainly "say no" to them. And if I felt differently, then *I* would be out of line. That's my opinion, anyway.

Last edited by [Censored] : 05-29-2001 at 02:22 PM.
 
Old 05-29-2001, 04:48 PM   #34
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Well [censored] now that I see that you read the above posts, I won't rehash the same arguments I made above. Please realize I'm not talking about the sempai/kohei relationship. I'm talking about the sensei/student relationship.

You do make a good point about power, though. Power in and of itself is not bad it is how we use it when it becomes a problem.

Take Care,
Anne Marie
 
Old 05-29-2001, 05:55 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by giriasis
Well [censored] now that I see that you read the above posts, I won't rehash the same arguments I made above. Please realize I'm not talking about the sempai/kohei relationship. I'm talking about the sensei/student relationship.
I don't distuinguish between the two. Anyone with more skill in the applicable area is my teacher. Anyone with less skill is my junior. Sometimes my teacher is also my junior, or vice-versa, in which case I am the predator AND the prey? Now that's Aikido training
 
Old 05-29-2001, 06:48 PM   #36
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Originally posted by [Censored]


I don't distuinguish between the two. Anyone with more skill in the applicable area is my teacher. Anyone with less skill is my junior. Sometimes my teacher is also my junior, or vice-versa, in which case I am the predator AND the prey? Now that's Aikido training
Well, if you want to define it that way you wouldn't be able to date anyone in your entire life. You won't be able to draw the line because you made your definition is so overbroad that it applies to every relationship. That is really impractical if you are a head of a dojo and are trying to implement policy.

I am speaking about a real teacher not the metaphorical ones. You know the teacher who owns the dojo and runs the classes. The teacher to whom you give your hard earned cash. (I think you know what I mean. )


Anne Marie
 
Old 05-29-2001, 08:10 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by giriasis

Well, if you want to define it that way you wouldn't be able to date anyone in your entire life. You won't be able to draw the line because you made your definition is so overbroad that it applies to every relationship. That is really impractical if you are a head of a dojo and are trying to implement policy.
Make no mistake, I don't *want* to define it that way, I am only acknowledging the reality of the situation. It is impractical, if you are trying to codify relationships and implement policies a la Confucius, but it is still true.

I generally dislike metaphors, but try this one on: I am the chief structural engineer at Boeing. For the sake of expediency, I have implemented a "pi = 3.10" policy. Do you dare to fly in my 747?
 
Old 05-30-2001, 01:11 AM   #38
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ah, but what if the shop owner had the only food for sale in town? or the business was the only one that sold clothing that you liked? You can imagine power-over anytime you want to use victimhood as an excuse, but it doesn't fly when you are talking about a dojo. wake up, a dojo. i really like Aikido. I cried when i had to leave my first dojo. But it was not the end of the world. and i still haven't heard anything the man did that makes him a predator. for God's sake, the man dated three students in 3 or 4 years, if i recall the post, so either he kept them for over a year (not bad by today's male standards) or he also looked elsewhere. I believe Saotome Sensei's wife is also an Aikidoka, i know Imaizumi Sensei's wife is, i don't know where they were in their training when they met, nor do i care. Chocolateuke's sensei is also in that category, it seems, as are a few other who posted here. not all started out as their loved one's teachers, some may have---but this is the real world, and things change. If you suddenly become a sensei, via a move or a death or whatever, does you wife/huband/significant other have to stop? oh, it's ok if you have the relationship already, you can be drawn to a person you train with, just not if you are the sensei? Do you guys really give someone that kind of control of your life for 50 bucks a month that you fear his manipulating you?
i don't see anything in the original post that says he took advantage over his dates. they dated (for a year each?), the one who wrote to complain never did date him, says she was pursued and then was rebuffed when she chased back, lets just call that a learning experience for the writer and the sensei. the third of the three he dated he is living with and raising a family. sounds stable by todays standards. all the women leave by 5th kyu? heck, a lot of dojos have trouble getting the women to stay that long.
if we are equals, we are equals, no fair being victim when it suits. adults take responsibility for their actions, something i would like to think Aikidoka should also. So the sensei's actions were he dated three women from his dojo over 4 years, the last becoming what appears to be a permanent relationship. i guess he would own up to that. i haven't heard any woman say SHE was coerced into a relationship (note the original author denies any relationship and that the sensei refused to get into one with her), been touched inappropriately, or in anyway been taken advantage of. Again, child molesters are taking advantage of those who can't refuse/lack the ability. Grown, adult men and women enter into and out of relationships all the time, and should be able to do so without dojo approval.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 10:16 AM   #39
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alright, i seem to have not sent the last part of what i wanted to say, and feel strongly enough (surprised?) about it that i will try this again. There is one more point of view that i am sure several men are thinking, but are too PC to say. In my first month of Aikido the kids class sensei asked me to 'help' him and the 1st kyu (male), as a female role model he said. Once i saw the 12-15 year old girls in the class, i knew he meant chaparone. Seductive behavior by girls does not justify pedophiles, but an attractive 15 year old chasing you around the dojo can be a real test, especially if you are a 20-something instructor. Luckily, this man was a man of honor, and i got to be 'mom'. If you are an adult, and an attractive adult is coming on to you, how much more difficult that would be to say 'no', and why should he?
I have seen a fair number of beginner females get all starry eye'd over instructors/senseis, find reasons to hang around the dojo (dressed to kill, not in a sweaty gi), offer to help the dojo then withdraw the offer if 'he' wasn't going to be there, etc. sometimes when folks come to watch a class, it is not the Aikido that catches their interest. And there is the strength and power as an aphrodisiac thing. those women usually don't last long, just long enough to geive the rest of us a bad reputation.
i think senseis give up a lot in order to share their knowledge with us, and if they find someone they like while at the dojo, then it is none of my business. would i rather he cut classes in half so he has more time to hit the bars/bookstores/wherever YOU think it's OK for him to find someone?
 
Old 05-30-2001, 10:43 AM   #40
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Colleen:

I strongly believe that you shouldn't shit where you eat. In my world, it's a bad idea. I accept your comments, and also strongly agree that being a victim is not an excuse. We all know of people who make their living being victims.

I also agree that all parties are responsible in an interaction (assuming we are not discussing an assault, mugging, random rape, etc). My opinion is based on my profession. Is it possible that a doctor can truly fall in love w/ one of his/her patients? Sure. However, there are so many possible points of entry for coercion and abuse, it is considered unethical. So I just won't do it. For me it's safer to avoid even the possibility of impropriety than to take any risk in that area. I further accept that my position does not apply to you and holds no influence in your life.

I think instructors should not date students. You don't agree. And I'm ok with that.

Rob

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Old 05-30-2001, 11:02 AM   #41
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no, REK, what we disagree on is whether it is any of our business if students want to date instructors. I don't date coworkers, nor dojo mates. But i don't care who does. You do. I am a physician, and our ethics prevents us from dating patients, oath aside, because of the power we hold over a patient, true power. Commanding officers have that power over troops. I would imagine some involved in the law posses it. Few others really get any sort of real power in their lives, despite what they think.
In a sensei-student relationship (of adults), the only one with any bit of true power is the student, because the student is the one giving money to the sensei, and so could threathen the sensei's livlihood.
i just think it is not my place to decide if an adult student can date a sensei if they want. None of my business. you obviously think is is your decision to make, and that is where we disagree.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 11:12 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
I don't date coworkers, nor dojo mates. But i don't care who does. You do.

So far, this is true.

Few others really get any sort of real power in their lives, despite what they think.

Including physicians, commanding officers, etc, as their power is referent, dependent upon the supplicant's acceptance of that power.


i just think it is not my place to decide if an adult student can date a sensei if they want. None of my business. you obviously think is is your decision to make, and that is where we disagree.

No, Colleen, that's not what I think. I may not have been clear. I don't think it's my decision who should date whom. I can only decide on my own dating partners. Generally speaking, should a sensei date a student? My answer is no. Will it happen anyway? Sure. That's what I believe, therefore, I won't do it. I have no desire to nor illusions of control over others. I am stating an opinion, not quoting law.

If what two people are doing works for them, and doesn't hurt others, then more power to them.

Rob

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Old 05-30-2001, 11:40 AM   #43
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so if i understand you correctly now, you are not saying 'instructors shouldn't date their students' but rather 'I don't date my students'...i like the sound of that much better.
but if you think those in the law have only the power someone gives them, you haven't lived in Las Vegas, where the police force have been found guity of murdering unarmned minorities 'for fun', male officers strip searching females they arrested on trumped up charges for the enjoyment of then being able to strip search and/or coerce favors out of, etc, plus the power of the court system---i'd call that power. And you must not have spent much time in the military if you don't know that individuals literally sign away personal rights and freedoms when they join. try refusing an order, from supplying DNA samples or an HIV test to taking a shot to whom you will or won't date---you can end up with a felony conviction. And as a physician, have you never brought a patient back from the edge of death? in those situations the one in power truely holds control of the other's life and freedom.
experiencing that, i guess, is what puts dojo dating in perspective for me.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 12:20 PM   #44
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dear CA

u sure like having the last word on any issue...right?

tought girl.




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Old 05-30-2001, 12:30 PM   #45
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But it was not the end of the world. and i still haven't heard anything the man did that makes him a predator. for God's sake, the man dated three students in 3 or 4 years, if i recall the post, so either he kept them for over a year (not bad by today's male standards) or he also looked elsewhere
Colleen: what you say above is NOT what has been going on, and I don't know all of it. I said a minimum of three students. Here is what I have heard - some of these he told me about, some other ex-students have told me about, some I witnessed: one twenty years younger, seduced then abandoned after four months. One less than one year relationship, got the student pregnant and broke up with her. This may or may not have occured while the instructor was still with his ex-wife. Current relationship with woman (now pregnant) in middle of divorce, less than seven months in duration so far (either that or they started dating when she was still living with her husband). Pestered another student I know (for dates, excessive touching) until she quit after six months. My situation. Has broken up a marriage in the past. Threw a student out of the dojo because she had "fallen in love with him" and was "insisting" (there's more to THAT story, I betcha). The one I saw get groped on her first day there. Hmm.. who else? I have heard that "so many" students quit because he was coming on to them. When I started at the place I go now, and explained why I left, people said "oh, you too?". I don't know why you keep insisting on having this rosy view of the situation. Maybe I wasn't explicit enough, but this is an anonymous column, so I was being vague on purpose.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 02:09 PM   #46
giriasis
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ah, but what if the shop owner had the only food for sale in town? or the business was the only one that sold clothing that you liked?
If the shop owner has the only food for sale in the town and then jacked the prices up so high that people couldn't afford it, it would be called price gouging. It happens and there are lawas against it. Why are there laws to regulate? Because most people are not responsible enough to control themselves so we need laws and regulations to prevent them from abusing their power.

And yes this shop owner has power over the people in that town. He has the food and they don't. The people have a "choice" to not buy the food and go hungry or to buy it. That is no choice.

If the business sold only the clothes I liked? If this was an expensive fashion boutique and their is a Target down the street that sells things at reasonable prices down the street? Now, that is their choice. It is called supply and demand -- basic economics.

But the dojo is not necessarily just a business now is it? It is more like a not- for-profit private school. Most who teach because they love to teach their art, not because he can make a profit based on supply and demand otherwise he would become a McDojo.

Quote:
You can imagine power-over anytime you want to use victimhood as an excuse, but it doesn't fly when you are talking about a dojo.
You know what colleen, real victims do exist in this world. There will always be abusers if we continually blame the victims for the harm they have suffered.

Power-over exists in every aspect of life, not just the military or law enforcement. It is wrong when there are real victims. There are real victims in this dojo that anon speaks of.

I seriously suggest you re-read each and every word of anon's last post. Each situation adds up one on top of the other. It is not just one isolated incident; it is many. There is something more going on than meets the eye -- anon knows this and she wants to know what to do about it. That is whey I told her to trust her instincts. My gut says there is more than "just harmless dating" going on.

And if you don't think abuses can possibly happen in dojos just talk to the kids who are molested by their sensei, the women who are raped by them. It happens, Colleen, research it yourself. If you don't think power can be abused in a dojo, you are really kidding yourself.

Abuse exists because people don't want to admit that it can and that it does happen.

It is the people who ABUSE the power that makes things look bad for us, not the victims -- the real ones. The only thing the REAL victims do is let us know the the martial arts industry is not free of these problems. The victims can shut up, but that doesn't stop the problems from happening. It only shoves the problems under the carpet until it is so bad we are forced to deal with the rot underneath.

Every right comes with a responsibility. A person has a right to run a business any way they see fit. An person has a right to run a not-for-profit school any way the see fit. Rights are not absolute. But they are still subject to many regulations of ethical business practices. They are still subject to prosecution and complaints for wrong doing against their employees and their customers.

You are kidding me in trying to convince me that a dojo owner holds no power. A dojo owner knows that people come to him or her to learn something they don't know -- self-defense. (you know the ability to protect youself from losing your life?). The dojo owner has that knowledge and the student does not. The dojo owner also should be aware of the many reasons that people come to dojo. Some are in a bad time of their life (vulnerable) and they are coming to the dojo to help them deal with their life problems. He or she should also be aware that the young women that come there may be starry eyed and wowed by their skill. Then with his right to teach where and how he wishes he or she should not take advantage of his student's baggage.

This is what has happened in anon's situation. The sensei went after those with baggage knowing they would less likely stand up for themselves. His "power" is the ability to decide whether or not to do this.

And a few other points:

In regards to the "dating mill" I mentioned. If you re-read my post. I said this guy is using these women as a dating mill at best. Meaning, I believe that something worse is going on.

and

In regards to this school's highest female rank being 5th kyu. Sure a lot of people drop out and I will agree that the retention rate for women is lower. But this guy should have at least one woman ranked higher than 5th kyu. Of course this in and of itself if not a proving factor but in inclusion of all the other examples that happened in this dojo, it is rather revealing.

Anne Marie

Last edited by giriasis : 05-30-2001 at 02:12 PM.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 02:32 PM   #47
giriasis
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Originally posted by [Censored]


Make no mistake, I don't *want* to define it that way, I am only acknowledging the reality of the situation. It is impractical, if you are trying to codify relationships and implement policies a la Confucius, but it is still true.

I generally dislike metaphors, but try this one on: I am the chief structural engineer at Boeing. For the sake of expediency, I have implemented a "pi = 3.10" policy. Do you dare to fly in my 747?

But you are choosing to define it that way based on the facts and circumstances of life. To you it is "truth", but "truth" is only relative to what you know. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, and Einstien all changed what was once proved as "true." So is the world still flat? From a certain point of view it still may be.

It is not impractical, codes of conduct are written all the time in all fields of life. It's not that difficult at all. Words in the law are defined in certain ways to make it more equitable to implement the rule. Very ofter the popular understanding of a word is different in law, and for policy makers.

If I tried to write a code of conduct based on your idea of what a teacher is, it would fly as well as you 747 implemented at a "pi = 3.10" policy.

What would result with your defintion is just what I said, you would date no one. Doesn't fly. Philosophically it does and that is where that definition should be used, not in law making. In law, we can make 1 + 1 = 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. We would even take is as a truth, based on case law and legal analysis. Because case law would say that the second number 1 actually is the number 2 in Scenario A. It is a number 3 in Scenario B. It is a number 4 in Scenario C. and it is a number 5 in Scenario D. (most lawyers were never good at math so this makes sense. )But to the structural engineer this would be absurd, and it would not work and your 747 would never fly.

Anne Marie
 
Old 05-30-2001, 04:49 PM   #48
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Originally posted by giriasis

What would result with your defintion is just what I said, you would date no one. Doesn't fly. Philosophically it does and that is where that definition should be used, not in law making. In law, we can make 1 + 1 = 3 or 4 or 5 or 6. We would even take is as a truth, based on case law and legal analysis. Because case law would say that the second number 1 actually is the number 2 in Scenario A. It is a number 3 in Scenario B. It is a number 4 in Scenario C. and it is a number 5 in Scenario D. (most lawyers were never good at math so this makes sense. )But to the structural engineer this would be absurd, and it would not work and your 747 would never fly.

Anne Marie
There is no philosophy. I am the engineer and the product. And we should both agree, as did Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, and Einstein, that 3.1 is only close enough for government work.
 
Old 05-30-2001, 10:11 PM   #49
kswinter
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RE: Instructors dating students: I just have to say no, no, no. The dojo is a place for Aikido practice, not a cruise bar! It is not fair to students to have to deal with an added love element. I may just be a scrinchy old lady, but pleeaase- there are so many other places to meet people- the park, grocery, church, etc, etc.

Practically speaking- if a date goes belly up- (say the student was much cuter in a gi than in regular clothes), usually it is the student that leaves the school, not the instructor. Its hard to keep students.
Instructors dating students- its a bad dynamic all the way around.

Karen Winter
 
Old 05-31-2001, 04:42 PM   #50
Jim23
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This is a strange thread and I don't understand the mass debate here.

If the dating is a one-time thing and they live happily ever after, fine. If it's a smorgasbord for a hungry sensi, then it's wrong! Period. Who would disagree with that?

Shut up and train (thanks Greg ).

Jim23
 

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