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Old 08-15-2005, 04:32 AM   #1
Dirk Hanss
 
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German words in English language

Ich nehme hier nur den Thread aus dem Spiritual-bereich heraus, weil er dort total off-topic ist - weiter geht es in Englisch, mit deutschen Worten

I just transfer this discussion here, as I think it spoils somehow the original thread.
Sonja, no offense. problably there are more fellow aikidoka interested in this than you expected.
Quote:
Sonja McGough wrote:
PS:

I am impressed by how many German words have entered the English language Unfortunately they all seem to be words for "negative" stuff, like Besserwisser, Blitzkrieg, Angst and Achtung. Weird, that... Sorry, that was completely OT
We had also Fahrvergnügen and Bier (don't use them together), Frankfurter and sauerkraut.

I also recall G'sundheit (health) after sneeze instead of "bless you" and very traditional Kindergarten, which sound much more positive - nothing against sauerkraut, I love it. It is only just food. Like hamburgers. And as I am told, the meaning is not ham-burger but really coming from Hamburg, although it is a real American invention, not the pure burgers, but being served in bread with salad, ketchup, etc.

And one of the lee positive words - schadenfreude (malicious joy)- seems to be typical German.

Any more?

Just this second I find zeitgeist, while the adjective zeitgeisty is bad abuse, isn't it?

Please do not spoil Jiawei's thread with these.

Viel Spaß Dirk
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Old 09-06-2005, 12:38 AM   #2
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Re: German words in English language

"Weltanschauung" wird in der Literaturwissenschaft sowohl in englisch als auch in italienisch.

Die Namen von vielen Hunderassen werden auch nicht übersetzt:
z.B: Schnauzer & Rotweiler

In der Philosophie werden einige deutsche Begriffe auch verwendet.
Vor kurzem habe ich ein halbes Semester gebraucht, um zu verstehen, was der Dozent mit "Ahh bow" meinte.... (Abbau).

Als er "Abbau" zum ersten Mal schrieb, sind die meisten von uns beinahe vor Lachen zusammengebrochen.


Dennoch bleibt "Zeitgeist" eines meiner Lieblingswörter.
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Old 10-25-2005, 03:12 AM   #3
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Re: German words in English language

I just saw "kitsch". This export might not be a compliment for the German language. At least we have our own word for it, it is not just normality.

Mit den besten Grüßen

Dirk
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Old 10-25-2005, 10:06 AM   #4
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Re: German words in English language

Well, I'm no authority in german, but isn't English a derivation of German (with French tossed into the mix)? For instance "Good Morning" coming from "Gutten Morning" (my German spelling is terrible, I know) or "God" wich comes from "Gott". I guess this doesn't make the post very fun...

What about "Volkswagen"?

-U-

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 10-25-2005, 01:00 PM   #5
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Re: German words in English language

I'm not a linquist by any stretch of the imagination, but english is somewhat related to German, as is Dutch. English is somewhat more a recent language relatively speaking compared to Germanic languages. Modern english is a derviation of Old english (700AD) and middle english (1000AD) with the evolvment of english around (1600-1700s) and it continues.

While modern english contains french words and other romantic language words, they are not root, but adoptions through the years.

Living in Bayern (Bavaria) as an american has been interesting. While I can appreciate and can see the relationship between english and german, the rules, accents, slang, pronunciation, and grammer are so distant from english that it makes it not so close, at least I struggle to understand.

I did find it interesting the further I traveled north into the state of Saxony, the more I seemed to understand German and found it to be closer to an english accent than in Bayern. Frankly, the rest of Germany I think has a hard time with Bayrische Deutsch, which is a language almost on it's own, as the official language is Hoch Deutsch (High German).

Try and understand Old English which is closer to english and even that can be a stretch!
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Old 10-25-2005, 02:33 PM   #6
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
Ulises Garcia wrote:
Well, I'm no authority in german, but isn't English a derivation of German (with French tossed into the mix)? For instance "Good Morning" coming from "Gutten Morning" (my German spelling is terrible, I know) or "God" wich comes from "Gott". I guess this doesn't make the post very fun...

What about "Volkswagen"?

-U-
Ulisses, you are right, Old English has derived from Anglo and Saxony, both Germanic peoples. But in newer time many English/American words have returned to the old continent - so we were asking, which newer German words are used in English, probably without linguistic adaption.

And no Volkswagen is just a trademark, unless you use it for simple and cheap cars, vehicles for the people.

Dirk
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Old 10-25-2005, 02:42 PM   #7
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Living in Bayern (Bavaria) as an american has been interesting. While I can appreciate and can see the relationship between english and german, the rules, accents, slang, pronunciation, and grammer are so distant from english that it makes it not so close, at least I struggle to understand.

I did find it interesting the further I traveled north into the state of Saxony, the more I seemed to understand German and found it to be closer to an english accent than in Bayern. Frankly, the rest of Germany I think has a hard time with Bayrische Deutsch, which is a language almost on it's own, as the official language is Hoch Deutsch (High German).

Try and understand Old English which is closer to english and even that can be a stretch!
Ken,
Bavarian is not too bad. I grew up near Ingolstadt, but never really leared Bavarian. When my grandfather visited us and my father took him out to some of his Bavarian friends, he told us, he had understood a little bit, until they spoke "nach der Schreibe" (like the writings, i.e. Bavarian for Hochdeutsch). Then he could not understand a word.

You have it in many German dialects, but the Bavarian and the Suabian are very proud of their heritage and many of them refuse to switch to understandable German.

But each dialect has its own charme, you just take a while to understand.

Is English so much better? Wasn't it Henry Higgins in "My Fair Lady", who complained about finding someone speaking English. And never call American English

Cheers Dirk
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Old 10-25-2005, 03:07 PM   #8
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Re: German words in English language

I seem to me that more Amercian English words have entered the venacular of the German Language than the other way around. Germans are exposed much more to english than Americans are to German. In the states I can go Months...no YEARs without hearing german. I hear english everyday here on the radio and on TV.

Words I know that are in the America:

Gesundheit (which I frankly didn't know meant "good health, but heard for years when people sneezed in America. I have never heard a German say it! I know laugh when I hear people say it in america!).

Schlepp: I always thought it was slang!

Rucksack

Schmuck (not used in the way to mean Jewelry, mostly used to mean a "Bozo" or a DUD, or "clown") alternate meaning in deutsch is "plain". I believe it was brought over by Jewish immigrants to the U.S.)

Schmutz: "you have some schmutz on your face". (Dirt, crumbs, or maybe like "jelly" in the U.S.).

Kaputt: means the same thing. Broken.

verklemmt: (we can thank commedian Mike Myers for his protrayal as a older jewish women Linda Richardson on Saturday Night live for this word. "I am verklemmt...talk amongst yourselves". In the U.S. context, it means "overcome with emotion".

This is all I can think of right now!

There are so many words that are the same, or phonetically are the same, but spelled different it is hard to tell if they are english or deutsch in origin.
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Old 10-25-2005, 03:16 PM   #9
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Re: German words in English language

Dirk,

I go to the Airfield in Ingolstadt from time to time! I live about 45 minutes north of it.

My son goes to detusches kindergarten he comes home and speaks to me in deutsch. I ask him what he says and it is not understandable, he translates it and I figure out he has been talking to his friends learning bayerishes deutsch, which is not in the books or what I learn from TV and at work!

While I am in bavaria, the people I work with speak english or hoch deutsch, so when I go out to a Gasthaus or into town and hear people talking...I don't understand them at all. Once they hear me speak and they want to include me, they switch to Hoch Deutsch, or english..so I never learn Bavarian!

I really love living here in Bavaria and consider it my second home! Now if I could just understand them !

No big deal, I can't understand my wife's family that lives in the back woods of Virginia either and they only speak english!
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Old 10-26-2005, 01:51 AM   #10
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Re: German words in English language

Kevin,

when my husband first moved to Germany from England, he didn´t speak a word of German. Even worse: he moved right into the centre of Swabia, which has an accent just a "bad" as Bavarian. After living there for about two years we moved to Hamburg and he soon thought that his German had improved loads and he was really proud of himself - until we went back to Stuttgart for a visit and he realized that his German was still as bad as before, but that the Northerners are just more easy to understand

Many British people say that I sound like I was English (even when I speak German ), but when I talk to my Scottish colleague at work I feel like I don´t understand a word

Best (German) regards,
Sonja
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Old 11-14-2005, 10:28 AM   #11
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Re: German words in English language

Don't forget the tacking-on of "über-" to everything to make it superlative....

Also, be careful of taking words back out of German that have been put there by English... it's hard to distinguish anymore because of the influence of advertising...

I think "schadenfreude" has got to be the best word to have made it over here, and I'm still waiting for "egal". It's so simple and so easy to use in so many situations... much easier than "I don't care" or "It doesn't matter"

-Doug
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Old 11-14-2005, 04:57 PM   #12
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Re: German words in English language

Thanks Doug,

I just was reminded to Pretzl (Brezel in German) as one of our aikiweb fellows took this as nickname.

And is "gruesome" derived from German "grausam" (cruel/mean) or does it have older origin?

And "egal" is quite interesting as it is quite newly (Napoleon ) derived from French "egale" which means equal / the same.

Dirk
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Old 11-16-2005, 04:07 AM   #13
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Re: German words in English language

Hi Dirk,

From http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gruesome

gruesome:
1570, from M.E. gruen "feel horror, shudder" (c.1300), possibly from M.Du. gruwen or M.L.G. gruwen "shudder with fear" (cf. Ger. grausam "cruel"), or from a Scand. source (cf. Dan. grusom "cruel," grue "to dread," though others hold that these are Low Ger. loan-words). One of the many Scottish words popularized in England by Scott's novels.

So it looks like "gruesome" and "grausam" share a common root.

Sean
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:02 AM   #14
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Thumbs down Re: German words in English language

Yeah, I was going to say it would make since if "gruesome" came from "grausam", except for the "ue"... this is typically used where in German there is a "ü"... but in the german word it's "au", not "ü"... so that leads me to believe maybe dutch or danish.. as far as the danish having borrowed those words from the german, that's a possibility, but there is just enough of the crazy way-north scandinavian influence in the danish language to have created a unique word. My knowledge of danish is limited, so I can't really tell.

Thanks for the heads up on "egal", I didn't know that... I can toss that in with "Portmonet" (sp?, I've been out of the country for 4 years), and "Champaignon" (again, sp?)

<edit> I guess I should explain for the non-german speakers... the first word that I misspelled is commonly used (at least in central germany) to mean wallet, or literally, "what you carry your money in", and the second is mushroom. Typically I can spell in German very well, but when it's french influenced, it gets all kinds of crazy <end edit>

-Doug
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:22 PM   #15
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Re: German words in English language

As far as my limited knowledge of linguistics goes, it seems that similarities between languages derive from different processes. Most of them have already been mentioned, let me then just summarize... Languages may use similar words because:

1. they are related, i.e. derived from the same roots. English and German do fall into this category, since both are germanic languages.

2. they accept these words through literature, art, science, fashion, media etc. "Angst", "Weltanschauung", slang words like "cool", "decolletage/decollete/dekolte" also seem to be universal.

3. they accept words through use by minorities, immigrants etc. E.g. the jewish minority in the USA, especially that part of it which emigrated from Germany at any time in history, spoke jiddish, a special dialect that uses words of German and Hebrew origin: just a small example of jiddish from a folk poem, if I may. I borrowed the text from a CD booklet by The Klezmatics - I hope no-one will mind:

"Sprayz ikh mir mit gikhe, mit gikhe trit,
Nokh a ferdl tsum yarid, tsum yarid,
Mitn tayster kling ikh mir, kling ikh mir,
Un a lidl zing ikh mir, zing ikh mir."

and the english version:

"I'm walking quickly towards the fair
To buy a horse. I'm rushing there.
I shake my purse and go along,
And sing myself a little song."

I think that those of you who can speak German, will be able to read and understand the jiddish version without too much trouble (the spelling may be different but the vocal image is almost unchanged).

Words from everyday language like "klutz", "verklemmt" and alike may very well be the profe of that last momentum.

Beatus Qui Venit In Nomine Domini!
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Old 11-17-2005, 03:19 AM   #16
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Re: German words in English language

Miha,
you don't know how difficult it is for us to understand Jiddish. Although I know a little bit about different German regional dialects, I just understood that there is something about a horse (ferdl -> Pferd(lein) and very similar to Bavarian and Suabian) and the last line is nearly common German, just a little bit weird written. ("Und ein Liedlein sing ich mir")
I even cannot figure out yet, what sprayz, gikhe, yarid, and tayster could mean and where they come from.

Unfortunately there haven't been many people speaking Jiddish in Germany the recent 60 years. Now my children learn some Jiddish songs at school or in Scout camps and there are sometimes concerts with Jiddish songs or klezhmer.
But in fact Jiddish was the first written German language as I was told (with hebrew characters). Could have been interesting, if that would have been official German now

Regards Dirk
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:05 AM   #17
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
I even cannot figure out yet, what sprayz, gikhe, yarid, and tayster could mean and where they come from.
As I see it "sprayz" could be related to "spazieren", "gikhe trit" could mean something like "schneller Tritt", since the man in the song is anxious to get to the fair and buy a horse. "Yarid" I believe means a fair; as he rushes "mit gikhe trit...tsum yarid" that is "zum Markt" or "zur Messe" (are these two synonims?) And, finally, "tayster" in my opinion is the right arm/hand. Linguistically "teister" is supposed to be related to Latin "dexter". It seem the man is holding his purse in his right hand, shaking it thus "klinging" the coins while he sings himself a "lidl".

Since I'm not a linguist I could very well be miles off.

A helpful site, perhaps, for easier reading and/or understanding the jiddish spelling: http://borzykowski.users.ch/EnglYiddish.htm

Last edited by bogglefreak20 : 11-17-2005 at 08:08 AM.

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Old 11-17-2005, 08:21 AM   #18
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Re: German words in English language

I typed a post almost identical to Mikh's just now, but then had to log back in and couldn't get back to copy/paste it, so I'm glad someone was thinking along the same lines so I don't have to retype it.

As far as I know "Messe" and "Markt" aren't synonyms in the classic sense (the biggest difference being indoor/outdoor usually), but there are enough similarities that I can see where they would maybe have come from a common usage.

-Doug
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Old 11-17-2005, 10:08 AM   #19
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
Doug Wiley wrote:
I typed a post almost identical to Mikh's just now, but then had to log back in and couldn't get back to copy/paste it, so I'm glad someone was thinking along the same lines so I don't have to retype it.

As far as I know "Messe" and "Markt" aren't synonyms in the classic sense (the biggest difference being indoor/outdoor usually), but there are enough similarities that I can see where they would maybe have come from a common usage.

-Doug
Messe has got three meanings in german. They go back to mass, which actually still is one of the meanings. The second translation would be a fair, which in former days would have been held after the mass on major church holydays. The third meaning/translation would be an exhibition/tradeshow, which often evolved out of fairs.
You are right, "Messe" and "Markt" aren't synonyms, though it got nothing to do with being indoor/outdoor.
BTW if you look at my family name, you'll find another german word, who found it's way into the english language...
I
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Old 11-17-2005, 10:19 AM   #20
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
You have it in many German dialects, but the Bavarian and the Suabian are very proud of their heritage and many of them refuse to switch to understandable German.

But each dialect has its own charme, you just take a while to understand.

Cheers Dirk
It's not always that they refuse, sometimes it just get's even worse, when they try. Just think on the classical "hinnen, enen, aben" (which is a cartesian form of the polar: "over there).
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Old 11-17-2005, 11:11 AM   #21
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
I'm still waiting for "egal". It's so simple and so easy to use in so many situations... much easier than "I don't care" or "It doesn't matter"
Another good one like "egal" is "doch". My (English) husband loves it
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Old 11-17-2005, 12:04 PM   #22
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
Sonja McGough wrote:
Another good one like "egal" is "doch". My (English) husband loves it
doch!
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Old 11-26-2005, 01:49 AM   #23
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Re: German words in English language

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I'm not a linquist by any stretch of the imagination, but english is somewhat related to German, as is Dutch. English is somewhat more a recent language relatively speaking compared to Germanic languages. Modern english is a derviation of Old english (700AD) and middle english (1000AD) with the evolvment of english around (1600-1700s) and it continues.

While modern english contains french words and other romantic language words, they are not root, but adoptions through the years.

Living in Bayern (Bavaria) as an american has been interesting. While I can appreciate and can see the relationship between english and german, the rules, accents, slang, pronunciation, and grammer are so distant from english that it makes it not so close, at least I struggle to understand.

I did find it interesting the further I traveled north into the state of Saxony, the more I seemed to understand German and found it to be closer to an english accent than in Bayern. Frankly, the rest of Germany I think has a hard time with Bayrische Deutsch, which is a language almost on it's own, as the official language is Hoch Deutsch (High German).

Try and understand Old English which is closer to english and even that can be a stretch!
Yeah, English is a Germanic dirivitve. Granted it was German tribal speak, but German itself was once that same thing too. One of the few languages not to dirive from Latin. :P Has the largest vocabulary of any language too. And with that being said the butchery by my generation, me included, is laughable. The entirity of "Hello. How are you and how was your day today?" is summed up into "...sup?" or "...up?" But the evolution of language is nothing new. Apparently the language with the largest vocabulary will be twisted and transformed into base words that are actual entire sentence thoughts with changing bases to prevent us from saying more than 5 words in an entire conversation.

Last edited by Taylor Franklin : 11-26-2005 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 12-01-2005, 01:29 PM   #24
James Kelly
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Re: German words in English language

I'm no expert, but I studied a little linguistics in school. The standard reason given for the fact that German derived words in English seem ‘lower' than their French derived equivalents is that the French words came into the language via the Norman invasion. These French (well, a mixture of French and Viking) speaking invaders became the ruling class and their language was adopted by the aristocracy. Later, through interaction with the continent, Latin was also used as the common language of the aristocracy. When all of these influences mixed together to form what we now think of as English, the Latin and French words kept their highbrow connotations and the Anglo-Saxon words were associated with the peasantry. The textbook example is the distinction between a ‘stool' (Anglo-Saxon derived) and a ‘chair' (French derived). The real situation is probably much more complex, but it makes for good cocktail conversation. Check out these links for more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...age#Vocabulary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_invasion

Also, Schlepp, Schmuck (which actually mean male genitalia and only means a dud as an insult), Schmutz, Kaputt, and verklemmt all came into English through Yiddish and so their meaning is twice filtered.
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