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Old 08-13-2005, 06:09 AM   #1
maeukemi
Dojo: Kyushinkan dojo - Roswell, GA
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Question arnica

I've heard several people mention this and am wondering where I might find some... I live in the southeast US, and have been looking for it but no luck... trying to find something that will help short-term with muscle pain so I can "practice through" our summer training....

Thanks!
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Old 08-13-2005, 06:59 AM   #2
Mark Uttech
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Re: arnica

You should be able to find it at any pharmacy. It comes in pill form, and also as a gel that you can apply to affected parts. Good luck.
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Old 08-13-2005, 09:22 AM   #3
rob_liberti
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Re: arnica

try traumeel too...
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:15 PM   #4
Sonja2012
 
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Re: arnica

Yep, Traumeel is great stuff for anything to do with muscles, joints and skin (it helps to get rid of spots, too ).

What you might be looking for is the homoeopathic form of arnica. It comes in globules, tablets or drops and should - as mentioned - be available from any pharmacy without prescription. The best from to keep are the globules - they will keep forever as long as they are not exposed to sunlight, heat or radiation. Arnica in low potencies helps to remove sore muscles and can often help keep swelling down after injury (or even after a removal of teeth). It is great as a first aid kind of thing after any injury, but especially after trauma such as bruising, tearing of ligaments etc. I once injured my ankle (it turned out to be a partial tear of the joint capsula) and arnica helped very well.
It should not be taken for more that a few consecutive days and make sure you get a low potency (not sure what the low ones are called in the States, over here they would be called D-potencies). For anything else you should talk to a qualified homoeopath.

Happy training without aches and pains,
Sonja
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Old 08-13-2005, 07:55 PM   #5
Janet Rosen
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Re: arnica

Health food stores and pharmacies stock arnica gel, which is the form I prefer to use specifically to apply to actual bruises ("black and blue" or hematomas). I find that it speeds the resolution of bruising considerably.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-14-2005, 03:39 AM   #6
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: arnica

Although there's little scientific evidence of arnica working, there's a LOT of anecdotal evidence that it helps healing of bruising/contusion. Don't know about muscle pain.

For aches, themselves, I prefer a couple of aspirin (or your anti-inflamatory of choice) and lots of water. A goot hot soak after training also helps.

As for buying arnica, my hedgewitch (Em waves at Janet) recommends NOT buying the homeopathic version if you can find the real stuff. Look for 10% or greater concentration.

Ya'll ever hear about the homeopathic beer party? Take an empty beer bottle, fill it with water, share with your friends. You get twice as drunk and no hangover!!!

Chuck

Last edited by Chuck.Gordon : 08-14-2005 at 03:40 AM. Reason: de-dyslexifying

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Old 08-14-2005, 05:16 AM   #7
Richard Cardwell
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Re: arnica

I can definitely recommend the use of the non-homeopathic (higher concentration) creams and gels, for direct application to bruises. It became an essential in my parents' house when I was a toddler and ran into a door- luckily, the district nurse was there and produced a tube of arnica! The corner of the door didn't leave a bruise, although my skull still has a crease in it.

The one bruise it doesn't seem to prevent (at least for me) is the little penny-sized one from yonkyo.
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Old 08-14-2005, 04:12 PM   #8
rob_liberti
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Re: arnica

Use whatever works best for you. If homeopathic meds work for you - even because of a placebo effect - then go for it. Don't let "science" stand in the way. There has _never_ been a double-blind test (the gold standard of science) proving that vaccinations are either safe or effective. I don't particularly have any agenda against vacinations. They really *might* be more help than harm - but we don't *know* about them either.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-14-2005 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 08-14-2005, 05:52 PM   #9
deepsoup
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Re: arnica

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
There has _never_ been a double-blind test (the gold standard of science) proving that vaccinations are either safe or effective.
Here's an old one: http://www.polio.umich.edu/history/field-trials.html
And here's a new one: http://www.gsk.com/ControllerServlet...402&newsid=251

I picked them out more or less at random from the thousands I found by googling "double+blind+trial+vaccine".

Quote:
They really *might* be more help than harm - but we don't *know* about them either.
Smallpox isn't much of a worry anymore.

Sean
x

Last edited by deepsoup : 08-14-2005 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 08-14-2005, 06:27 PM   #10
maeukemi
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Re: arnica

So if I mention it by either name to a good pharmacist, they should know what I'm talking about?

Thanks, everyone!
PS - I used Tylenol, ibuprofen, tiger balm, wintergreen oil, water, and wraps to get through this training without *too* much bruising... but then, I'm relatively new...
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Old 08-14-2005, 09:53 PM   #11
aikidoc
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Re: arnica

I have never found much relief with arnica or Traumeel. Biofreeze is good for muscle soreness.
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Old 08-14-2005, 10:24 PM   #12
rob_liberti
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Re: arnica

If you want to get to the hard stuff, then the ultimate (in my opinion) is the transdermal ibuprophin patches you get in Japan. Those are just awesome (and you don't have to process the meds through your digestive systems).

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
Here's an old one: http://www.polio.umich.edu/history/field-trials.html
And here's a new one: http://www.gsk.com/ControllerServlet...402&newsid=251

I picked them out more or less at random from the thousands I found by googling "double+blind+trial+vaccine".


Smallpox isn't much of a worry anymore.

Sean
Those are not double-blinds on either the safety or efficacy of vaccinations. I believe what you found are double blinds comparing an old vaccine to a new vaccine. They basically assume the conclusion and then go about concluding their assumption. Please find me just one where there was a double blind study between vaccinated and unvaccinated. Just one will do...

There are no vaccinations for the Bubonic Plague or Scarlet Fever, yet they aren't much of a worry anymore either. That's because all epidemics have a natural life span. And that's not mentioning some of the more obvious contributors like sanitation, hygiene, and quality of nutrition (which seem to be frequently overlooked in the reductionist thinking on this topic).

I'm NOT stating that vaccinations do not work and/or are unsafe. (I would need to do a valid study to prove that either way!) I'm saying you cannot know based on the science done so far; and so if we are comfortable vaccinating without such proof, then I think it's okay to try homeopathic meds without scientific proof of their safety or efficacy. (Especially since there are far fewer anecdotes of problems from taking homeopathic meds.)

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-14-2005 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 08-15-2005, 01:30 AM   #13
Sonja2012
 
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Re: arnica

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I think it's okay to try homeopathic meds without scientific proof of their safety or efficacy. (Especially since there are far fewer anecdotes of problems from taking homeopathic meds.)
I am a homoeopathic practitioner and even though I have stopped trying to tell people that homoeopathy works (in the same way that I have stopped trying to tell people that aikido works, by the way - I simply do both and see the results every day), I do have to say that I find it amusing how aikidoka (I am not referring to anyone in particular), who are willing to accept that something like Ki/ universal energy exists, seem to have such a hard time trying to understand that sickness is a disturbed vital energy which can therefore only/best be cured by energy (which is what homoeopathic remedies are, in the end).

Just food for thought.
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Old 08-15-2005, 05:37 AM   #14
deepsoup
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Re: arnica

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Please find me just one where there was a double blind study between vaccinated and unvaccinated. Just one will do...
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that both the studies I mentioned fit that bill. They're comparisons between a vaccine and an "inert solution", not another vaccine. (ie: the patients injected with the "inert solution" are/were unvaccinated.)

Quote:
There are no vaccinations for the Bubonic Plague or Scarlet Fever, yet they aren't much of a worry anymore either. That's because all epidemics have a natural life span. And that's not mentioning some of the more obvious contributors like sanitation, hygiene, and quality of nutrition (which seem to be frequently overlooked in the reductionist thinking on this topic).
Good point. I find it hard to believe that smallpox became extinct spontaneously (unlike those others which are still out there, albeit very rare). But i don't have the evidence to back that up, its just my feeling. You seem to have a personal interest in this stuff, which I don't share, to be honest I can't be bothered to spend too much time looking stuff up to support my views, sorry.

To our shame, there are plenty of places where sanitation, hygiene and nutrition are scarcely better (sometimes worse) than they were a thousand years ago. Something we also tend to forget.

Quote:
I think it's okay to try homeopathic meds without scientific proof of their safety or efficacy. (Especially since there are far fewer anecdotes of problems from taking homeopathic meds.)
The part about vaccines aside, I agree. Personally I don't believe homeopathic remedies have any effect (beyond that of a placebo), so I'm not about to suggest they might have harmful side effects, apart from some lightening of the wallet.

Also, I'm not suggesting that the 'placebo effect' is not real. If a placebo works, thats good medicine as far as I'm concerned.
Not so long ago, when people didn't question their doctor the way they do now, it was very common for British GP's to prescribe placebos for their patients, often with good results.

I like the idea of Chuck Gordon's homoepathic beer party. Mine's a homeopathic single malt though, I think.

Sean
x

ps: Just kidding about that last bit, I'd rather risk the hangover.

Last edited by deepsoup : 08-15-2005 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 08-15-2005, 05:50 AM   #15
Sonja2012
 
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Re: arnica

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
I don't believe homeopathic remedies have any effect (beyond that of a placebo)

If a placebo works, thats good medicine as far as I'm concerned.
I generally agree with your statement about placebos (if it works fine - whatever it is), but how would you explain the fact that homoeopathic remedies work on animals and toddlers/babies (and I donīt mean in cases like a simple cough etc where one could argue that it would have gone away on its own sooner or later, but cases of neurodermatitis, psoriasis, and other chronic ailments)?
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Old 08-15-2005, 07:25 AM   #16
Krista DeCoste
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Re: arnica

I have used arnica gel for bumbs and bruises since my children were quite young. It seemed to work, it also seemed to work for my friends and their families. I'm not sure why using plant based remedies are hard for some people to trust. This knowledge has been built up over generations. Try it and if you are not happy, don't use it.

Krista
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Old 08-15-2005, 11:02 AM   #17
deepsoup
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Re: arnica

Quote:
Sonja McGough wrote:
I generally agree with your statement about placebos (if it works fine - whatever it is), but how would you explain the fact that homoeopathic remedies work on animals and toddlers/babies (and I donīt mean in cases like a simple cough etc where one could argue that it would have gone away on its own sooner or later, but cases of neurodermatitis, psoriasis, and other chronic ailments)?
I'm not saying homeopathy definitely doesn't work, I'm saying I don't believe it does. Do you appreciate the difference?

When you say "the fact that homeopathic remedies work", what exactly do you mean by "fact"? Are you talking about your own experience, anecdotal evidence from others, or the results of a scientific study? (ie: a double-blind placebo controlled study with a statistically significant number of subjects, etc.)

I guess I'd say that sometimes things just get better on their own. For example, I googled and found that "occasionally, psoriasis will go into a spontaneous remission on its own without treatment". Maybe some of those chronic conditions have been misdiagnosed, and aren't quite so chronic after all. Also, theres the way that anecdotal evidence tends to support our successes so much more often than our failures. (This is not about dishonesty, its just the way our minds work. We all tend to remember the hits and forget the misses, its the same reason that fortune tellers doing a cold reading can seem so convincing to even the most sceptical of us.)

If, on the other hand, you can point to a proper scientific study then I'd either find another one that contradicts it, find something wrong with its method or accept it and change my mind.

Sean
x
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Old 08-15-2005, 11:14 AM   #18
Sonja2012
 
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Re: arnica

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
I'm not saying homeopathy definitely doesn't work, I'm saying I don't believe it does. Do you appreciate the difference?
Absolutely And I was not trying to convince you. As I said before, I have got tired of trying to prove that homoeopathy works and I didnīt mean to fuel a discussion. Guess I did anyway. I apologize for that. You are entitled to your own opinion about this and I accept that.
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Old 08-15-2005, 04:07 PM   #19
deepsoup
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Re: arnica

Hi Sonja,

You're perfectly entitled to try to convince me if you want, and getting into discussions is what these boards are for, so you have absolutely nothing to apologise for. Nice 'talking' to you.

Sean
x
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Old 08-16-2005, 02:07 AM   #20
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: arnica

Sean,
There is no way to get convinced but trying. It works at many people far beyond placebo effect. There are many who do not find any reaction. Could be negative placebo, too. But there might be other reasons.
If you do not like potencies (dilution), cou can take finalgon (extra strong). You feel the power in the first minute. I would argue it is some kind of homoeopathic remedie, just not in potency. It is a little bit ironical, but I mean it seriously: You have some pain and you heal it with something that creates pain. And finalgon can create bloody pain, I promise. The first reaction might be that you just forget any bruises or sore muscles. So you have to apply it carefully, but it helps.
Unfortunately I do not know, if it is called the same outside of Germany. You might look at finalgon.de and click kontakt to get more information.
Best to use it the next morning. First time I took it was in the evening just before bed - what a night . Or as prevention you might apply it some hours before training. Each use of the muscle will reactivate finalgon and it will warm this part.
So mostly for the "tough guys".
The others use arnica D6 globuli. The outcome is the same, you just have to believe in it.

Cheers Dirk
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Old 08-22-2005, 09:49 PM   #21
Faith Hansen
 
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Re: arnica

I personally like the Arnica spray. It is 10% with an alcohol base, so it does not make your skin sticky or anything like a gel would. You can spray as much as you like. I find that it is great for bruises. Another great one for bruises is Bromelain. It is pineapple extract. Take it with an EMPTY stomach. It reduces bruise heal time considerably. Good for aches and pains too.

-Faith
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