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Old 07-03-2000, 09:24 PM   #1
Orange
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I have recently noticed that in beginner's classes, the only times I walk out injured (usually just bruises) is when I work with someone who has pracited another martial art (such as Karate). This frustrates me to no end!

I am curious if anyone here has done other martial arts and can answer a question for me.

I Aikido unique in the Uke/Nage relationship? It seems that people who have studied other martial arts don't get the "your partner is not a training dummy" idea. Do styles like karate not have partner practice?
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Old 07-03-2000, 11:40 PM   #2
AikiTom
Dojo: Aikido Martial Arts Center
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Here are a couple of ideas. At one time, I practiced a style that integrated aikido, tae kwon do, and Okinawan te. As such we worked out with people from other backgrounds, especially tae kwon do and shorin-ryu karate.
As an unbiased observer, I would say that the karate people were very rigid, tense/intense, and deathly afraid of falling - I used to say they fell like trees, going down straight as a board.
Regarding the partner question you asked, my experience shows that these types of arts produce people who function at one or the other extreme - either they fully connect, as in sparring, or fully detach, as in the one-step and three-step form exercises, where the partner merely blocks or helps determine distance. There is no sensitivity or connection in the same sense as experienced in aikido. I'm not saying it can't happen; this is just my experience.
I have also engaged in sparring where the "uke" used only karate-tae kwon do attacks, and we as "nage" used only aikido moves. Want to know how really bad your aikido timing and responses are? Try it. It will shake you, and if you're courageous, you'll take it into account and practice better.
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Old 07-04-2000, 07:21 AM   #3
Orange
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AikiTom,
You hit the nail right on the head with the falling like trees comment. It almost seems like if they fall, they lose, and everybody wants to win.

The sparring you describe sounds very interesting. How do you handle kicks since they seem to be very widely used outside of Aikido.
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Old 07-04-2000, 12:43 PM   #4
"Sid"
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I found that tai chi works very well with aikido.

Look at my Ki post.

Sid
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Old 07-05-2000, 04:59 AM   #5
Anne
Dojo: Kiel University/VfL Fosite Helgoland
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Ai symbol

I can understand your problem very well because it's just the same at our training.
Training at the sports center of our university is almost free, so there are a lot of people with karate or ju-jutsu background visiting our beginners class.
My observation is that those people focus entirely on hands and feet of their partner and therefore have problems with distance, timing and orientation which make them try to force techniques.
The first step to make those people relax is to let them realise that they are not attacked by hands and feet, but by a whole person and therefore have to deal with their partner. To do that, it's necessary to look in your partners eyes which is very difficult for some people.
Soon after starting to deal with persons instead of hands, most people develop good timing, distance and orientation.
Knowing what's going on and being in control helps very well to relax, to center and to understand what the techniques are about.
A better orientation normaly leads to a big improvement of ukemi, too.

This works very well in our classes and I hope it's of some help.

<rei>

Anne

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Old 07-05-2000, 05:18 AM   #6
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
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" How do you handle kicks since they seem to be very widely used outside of Aikido...."
Aikido techniques can be applied against kicks easily enough. The main reason most Aikido clubs don't practice kicks is because it's so easy for uke to get injured. It'svery difficult to fall when somebody has entered under your leg and you're falling vertically head first from a height. Even if your hamstring doesn't tear you're in a sticky situation.
And like any other attack, you can enter around it. Unless you're slow.
There's an mpg of Christian Tissier with a kicking uke at the aikidofaq, although it's sped up.
andrew
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Old 07-05-2000, 09:11 AM   #7
irish
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Why not try a 'jap slapping' training technique used by the SAS?

Stand in the middle of the mat surrounded by as many people as you like, get them to attack you one by one in a clockwise direction with a realistic punch, kick, grab, weapon etc..
When you get really confident you can tell them to use any attack they like.... and when you get really really confident you allow them to attack at will.....and when you get really stoopid you can allow multiple attacks...

I find its great for timing and concentration...nothing like a few slaps in the head to make you concentrate!!

Of course care is required and speed should be built up slowly as both attacker and defender to gain confidence in each other. When defending against kicks practice ward off and place techniques which are not as severe but equally as effective and can lead on to other techniques.

Another way of practicising defence against kicks is to use the jo and pretend its a leg (of a very thin person obviously!)...

Irish
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Old 07-05-2000, 11:09 AM   #8
Erik
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I've seen both ends of it. I've watched a small handful of people with other backgrounds who picked up this falling stuff almost instantly. If I remember correctly they were a mixture of wrestling and shotokan. But the fact that they stand out says something.

On the other end of the spectrum was a shared situation I was in where the main part of the school was Tae Kwon Do. They just didn't get why we were disconcerted with concrete covered by rubber. The owner was certain he knew how to fall and that it would be fine for us (like he does koshi). All I know was that while watching one of his instructors teach a beginner to fall I had to leave because the instruction consisted of "just roll". I was probably the most scared person in the room and someone else looked terrified.

And I don't care what anyone says about falling on concrete. It hurts like hell.
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Old 07-06-2000, 02:33 AM   #9
einx
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There is a point I think you are missing, and it's extremely clear to me. Most of beginners in other artial marts train with one main goal. Learn how to hurt people. When they join aikido they usually enter with the idea of "if I do a technique, and nage gets hurt, I am doing it the right way"

I trained karate, judo and taekwondo before I began with aikido. My "highest rank" was a 2nd kyu in karate, just a beginner. When I began in aikido I joined because I saw the chance to train "ultra techniques to break bones and crush heads with a few movements of my fingers". So, when I saw ikkyo the first time, I really thought the hidden idea was to break uke's elbow, and send him to the closer emergency hospital.

Etn


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Old 07-06-2000, 09:59 AM   #10
BC
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I trained in a couple of different martial arts for several years before beginning aikido (kenpo and tai chi), and my perspective is different than some of the others expressed in this thread. In kenpo, which can be considered an extremely devasting and lethal art, it was very much frowned upon in our school to hurt your partner, even during sparring class. There was a great deal of emphasis on the use of control in applying techniques and during sparring class. Granted, I did occasionally get injured, but it was usually from a beginning student who didn't have the proper level of control or attitude during practice (one of these was actually a 10 year old who unintentionally cracked one of my ribs with a kick when I was initially teaching him a technique - definitely a control issue!).

Regarding falling, my experience was that very little emphasis was placed on falling, although we did practice some techniques that were almost identicle to koshinage and aikitoshi. Basically, we slapped out on those falls, without the emphasis on any rolling or smoothing out the fall. Of course, years later when I began aikido, I had completely forgotten how to take those falls and had to learn them all over again. At least this time it was on a tatami instead of a hard floor!

Regarding falling on concrete - following a recent seminar after we finished cleaning up the mats in the gymnasium, one of my fellow students dared our sempai with the best ukemi in our dojo (and that I've ever seen) to take a high breakfall on the wooden gym floor. After a few moments of contemplation, the sempai politely declined, saying he'd done it before and it was too uncomfortable.

IMHO,

-BC
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Old 07-06-2000, 10:13 AM   #11
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I'll say that I've accumulated a lot more injuries in aikido than in other martial arts. I think it's, perhaps, due to the fact that we actually complete the throw in aikido whereas, as BC said, we tend to pull our punches and such in karate and other punching/kicking arts.

As far as falling on hardwood floors and such, I feel that everyone should be able to perform rolls comfortably on them. Being able to breakfall on hard floors is nothing spectacular, really. if I do a regular slapping breakfall, my hand and arm stings for a bit; if I do a "soft" breakfall (like you may see with some Yoshinkan people), it's not that uncomfortable at all.

-- Jun

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Old 07-06-2000, 11:03 AM   #12
dbgard
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Thumbs up I know aikido so that makes me invincible, right?

WRONG !!

Aiki (Aikido) is the only marital (martial) art I've studied, and it will be all I need, provided I don't get cocky or reckless with it. To all those who think they are kami because they know kempo, jeet kune, or "death touch jutsu", I've got a little reminder for ya...My karma ran over your dogma, so open your mind before you buy or breed your next puppy. The inferiority / superiority complex is often very dangerous, as it leads only to one thing..loneliness (fear). So chiggity check yourselves before you wreck yourselves, aikido brothers and sisters. One of the greatest teachings of D. Hooker Sensei at one of his seminars in Tallahassee was a reminder that we must beware the "superiority attitude" of "I know AIKIDO!!!" lest our egos start writing checks our bodies can't cash....

Shihonage (Gratitude),
Drew G.

--Drew

haiku time

Wee-Wow Sensei Hai!!!!
Yet Another wonderous
Person on the Path

hara-kiri for the fear-mongers,
sushi-waza for the peace-makers.

--The great dream shared among my friends--

--Please see [u]Aikido and the Harmony of Nature[u] [i]illustration:[i] p. 125. Mitsugi-san, I taught you aikido in my former life, and no
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Old 07-06-2000, 11:15 AM   #13
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Re: I know aikido so that makes me invincible, right?

Quote:
dbgard wrote:
WRONG !!
To whom are you directing your remarks? Did I miss someone's post who said that aikido makes one "invincible"? All I've seen are posts from, for the most part, many people who have experience in other martial arts...

Quote:
One of the greatest teachings of D. Hooker Sensei at one of his seminars in Tallahassee was a reminder that we must beware the "superiority attitude" of "I know AIKIDO!!!" lest our egos start writing checks our bodies can't cash....
Dennis, as usual, is pretty much on the ball, but you do know that he also studied other martial arts outside of aikido, right?

-- Jun

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Old 07-06-2000, 11:54 AM   #14
Krosm
Dojo: Bujin Takei Dojo
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Ki Symbol

Hello all,

I have been studying Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu for about three years now and this has led me to explore more of what budo has to offer. I have read much on Morihei Ueshiba (Stevens) and the origins of Aikido and Aikibujutsu.

I dont really know what the reputation of Ninjutsuka is amongst Aikidoka but the way my Sensai teaches seems similar to more of the Aiki principles inherent to Aikido and less then the linear and aggressive aspects of some Karate Ryu. What I mean by this is that much of the instruction is focused on flow, harmony, and conflict resolution rather then more destructive principals I have seen other Ninjutsu instructors emphasis. We train in falling and rolling skills (but likely not to the extent of Aikido!), and work to develop our technique from the center and as relaxed as possible. Taijutsu we call it. Moving from the body. When I try to muscle a technique (usually against a larger uke) not much happens, however, when I'm really present and just flow with the uke; its magic!

Just wanted to share some thoughts on this. I will be poking around in here, reading and learning. Im looking forward to experiencing Aikido more directly this summer. I imagine the two arts would just augment each other.

Krosm

Ninpo Ikkan!
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Old 07-06-2000, 12:06 PM   #15
Erik
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Quote:
akiy wrote:
As far as falling on hardwood floors and such, I feel that everyone should be able to perform rolls comfortably on them. Being able to breakfall on hard floors is nothing spectacular, really. if I do a regular slapping breakfall, my hand and arm stings for a bit; if I do a "soft" breakfall (like you may see with some Yoshinkan people), it's not that uncomfortable at all.

-- Jun
Jun, you actually make a good point in that it can be done. We did it at the place I mentioned and all in all I admit to being stunned at how well. I've fallen a number of times on concrete while playing basketball and riding my bike and all but once came up fine. The one-time I didn't I went over my handlebars with almost no speed and almost landed on my head. As it was, my neck and bike were royally tweaked. I could have been hurt much worse and probably would have were it not for the fact that I was comfortable being upside down.

Still and all, I'm with the sempai mentioned above.
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Old 07-06-2000, 12:31 PM   #16
Erik
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Quote:
Krosm wrote:
I dont really know what the reputation of Ninjutsuka is amongst Aikidoka but the way my Sensai teaches seems similar to more of the Aiki principles inherent to Aikido and less then the linear and aggressive aspects of some Karate Ryu. What I mean by this is that much of the instruction is focused on flow, harmony, and conflict resolution rather then more destructive principals I have seen other Ninjutsu instructors emphasis.
Welcome to the party.

You just reminded me of something which I'm finding humorous right this minute. This happened right after I got my shodan and our dojo hosted a 3 art seminar and part of it was Ninjitsu. We went last and the first 2 sections involved the standard stuff: pressure points, joint locks, breaking stuff (like arms, legs, necks) and all that good stuff. My instructor (ex-ranger, 30+ years of Aikido and almost certainly the meanest, deadliest motherfucker in the room and not because of his Aikido) gets up to teach.

What does he teach?

"Open up, love, feel your partner, connect with your partner. Feel love for them from an open space."

So here I am, a newly minted shodan, still getting comfortable with this thing around my waist and I wind up in the ninja section. They're all looking at me for clarification. "We'll uh, you like open up and you feel love which lets in some harmony because of the connection... Yea, that's it."

The ninja people all get these funny ??????'s over their heads. I'm standing there saying "harmony, love, ....." and they are getting more ?'s with every word I say.

It was a long 2 hours.
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Old 07-06-2000, 01:56 PM   #17
dbgard
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Cool to Akiyama-san

Jun,

On my previous post with the right? WRONG!!, I was kind of talking to myself (bad habit) and using that to provide a case scenario, very similar to the scenario presented by Hooker Sensei at a seminar. I had in fact heard that Dennis Hooker Sensei studied other martial arts. Similarly, so did my first sensei, Dan Evans Sensei. Every now and then I think Evans Sensei would throw a little Karate or Jiujutsu into the mix just to keep us off our toes and on our butts (hahaha). It just seems to me that most other forms of budo have some kind of competitive structure making them more like "sports" and a little less like "ways". I love sports, nature, most people, food, alcoholic beverages, nicotine, faithful sexual behaviour, spelling like I'm British, and I love the Way of love (aikido). I hope I didn't get too sentimental on y'all 8).

--Drew

hara-kiri for the fear-mongers,
sushi-waza for the peace-makers.

--The great dream shared among my friends--

--Please see [u]Aikido and the Harmony of Nature[u] [i]illustration:[i] p. 125. Mitsugi-san, I taught you aikido in my former life, and no
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Old 07-09-2000, 10:27 PM   #18
Ronald
Dojo: Aoinagi Karate
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The woods are thick, but what are the trees?

I am relatively new to martial arts, and have been training in shito-ryu karate for 5 years now. I am saddened by the following:

Quote:
Orange wrote:
...the only times I walk out injured (usually just bruises) is when I work with someone who has pracited another martial art (such as Karate). This frustrates me to no end! ...It seems that people who have studied other martial arts don't get the "your partner is not a training dummy" idea. Do styles like karate not have partner practice?
I am sorry you had this experience. I think you will find that while the art will flavour the students approach, much of this is really dependant upon the individual student and the Sensei under which they learn. The tough guys tend to pack with the tough guys, etc.

When I first started karate at 16, I had a miserable time. I was treated like a punching bag, and quit.

After moving to California 10 years later, I joined my current dojo -- against my better judgement, but my girlfriend of the time had won a free months training, and coerced me as only a man in love can be coerced.

It seems, that when my Sensei opened his dojo in the 70's, his was a hard contact school just like where he had trained. But after three months, he and his three starting students (all male) had each broken a bone. For him, it was his 15th broken rib!

He adopted a complete reversal, and made his school "non-contact". The idea was to learn focus and control, rather than how hard you can hit fellow karate-ka. He knew that he was giving up some things -- but also felt that this would allow for uninterrupted training, for women to join and work toward their potential without being beaten upon by 200 lb. men, and for learning cooperation, self-awareness and control that could be even more valuable.

The character of the dojo changed. I think almost everyone has a university degree or is attending college. What's more, most of them are doctors, lawyers, chemists or engineers... etc. Almost half of the students are women. Some of them are old. Cooperation is a by-word. And when they go to national competitions, like the one in Atlanta this past June, they win first place -- just like other dojo's do.

I guess what I wanted to let you know from this is really that all students and dojo's are different from one another. Some, like my Karate school, collect academics. Others, bartenders and brawlers. I bet there is a rogue "street-fighting" aikido school out there, if you looked for one.

Cheers,
Ron

A fellow martial artist
http://www.aoinagi.org
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Old 07-09-2000, 11:57 PM   #19
AikiTom
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Ki Symbol

Quote:
Orange wrote:
AikiTom,
The sparring you describe sounds very interesting. How do you handle kicks since they seem to be very widely used outside of Aikido.
I've been fortunate to learn how to handle kicks from the beginning in aikido - I've talked to some people where their school doesn't teach it, or makes them wait until nidan level, etc.
Some people feel that if a fight does happen, the attacker may well know another art, so it makes sense to know how to deal with it in an aiki way.
Examples:
1) A front snap kick can be handled similar to a munetsuke punch with a tenkan as in kotegaeshi. The technique can vary according to where the leg is when grabbed - if still extending you can latch onto it and move forward to off-balance the person since all their weight is on their back leg, or if it is being retracted you grab as in kotegaeshi. You can then use the blade of your forearm to press down on their leg midway between ankle and knee, or slip your right hand under the leg, removing your left hand which moderately strikes the chest in a sort of irimi/kokyu-nage move, sort of an up-ending circular move.
Safety's important, and at the same time it's actually better for uke if there is some moderateness to the speed rather than doing it slowly. The flow makes for a nicer fall.
2) Sidekicks/back kicks are easy to work with.
3) Roundhouse kicks are actually pretty easy. We use an entry and grab that are hard to describe, but it twists the uke around and he does a front fall. (There's actually a shiho-nage move to use on a roundhouse that can end with nage leaning backward on the ground with an elbow strike to the groin - harmony(?) )
4) Sometime the easiest are the reverse-spinning kick guys - real pretty, but unless they're Chuck Norris, an aikidoist has little problem. Plus the last thing they expect is someone to ENTER into their space.
Sorry it took me so long to respond. I missed checking this thread.

[Edited by AikiTom on July 10, 2000 at 12:00am]

May the force be with you!
AikiTom
"Be the change you want to see."
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Old 07-10-2000, 11:27 AM   #20
dbgard
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Circle Re: The woods are thick, but what are the trees?

Quote:
Ronald wrote:
I am relatively new to martial arts, and have been training in shito-ryu karate for 5 years now
Relatively new??? to whom? Jigorino Kano or "Grandfather" Gracie?

5 years is quite a while I think, of course, I've only been in martial arts for a year and a half now about. We used to train next to some Shotokan Karateka, but I don't know how much that resembles your style. At any rate, it looked (and sounded) like some pretty intense practicing going on, and the students seemed to be having a good time. It certainly seemed like a more rigid, tightly disciplined martial art than aikido, which I'm sure has its own array of benefits and drawbacks.

I think aikido might be just as good or better for bringing people together because an extremely high level of trust needs to be formed in the Aikido dojo. The only thing that keeps us from constantly sparring in the dojo is our individual restraint. When we throw uke, we really are throwing away both uke's "intent" to harm, and our own little demons inside, the most brutal of our animal "instincts".

"To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst sin a human being can committ."
Ueshiba Morihei / Morihei Ueshiba
"[I am like a mirror reflecting all the world from it]."
U.M. / M.U.


-------
Drew G

hara-kiri for the fear-mongers,
sushi-waza for the peace-makers.

--The great dream shared among my friends--

--Please see [u]Aikido and the Harmony of Nature[u] [i]illustration:[i] p. 125. Mitsugi-san, I taught you aikido in my former life, and no
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