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Old 08-10-2005, 08:01 AM   #51
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
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Re: Kata Training and Aikido

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
IMO Shu Ha Ri is a counterproductive approach in MA learning and belongs to the history books alongside other interesting japanese cultural phenomenons.
Shu-ha-ri is not only NOT countrproductive to traditional budo training, it is essential.

See my post above about CQB, however. If you goal is combative skill, yes, shu-ha-ri may indeed not be the path for you. If you want to learn trad. budo, however, it is part and parcel of the methodology and systemology of the practice.

Even, however, in the unarmed combatives a taught in modern militaries (the US Army's current method is based deeply in BJJ), students FIRST learn via kata, then move that basic knowledge of technique application into free-play.

In order to train lots of people how to deal with physical violence rapidly and efficiently, there are much better methods than those of traditional budo.

But to learn traditional budo, there is no better method than learn-integrate-break, as embodied in the kata-based systems of aikido, judo, kendo, et al.

As far as talking combat-effective vs trad. MA, it's an apples-oranges thing.

Chuck

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Old 08-10-2005, 10:15 AM   #52
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
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Re: Kata Training and Aikido

I agree so much with what Chuck wrote, I'll just leave it at that.

Fighting is fighting, budo is something else. You decide for yourself if it is less or more.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:14 PM   #53
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
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Re: Kata Training and Aikido

Okay fellas... I think it's time for another topic
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:53 PM   #54
Roy
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 118
Canada
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Re: Kata Training and Aikido

Re: "Traditional budo" and "Fighting art"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that a budo that encompasses a "little" kata for self study etc... Will encourage both, a combat effectiveness, and strengthen, and/or distill a greater understanding of form. I also think that self study with kata form, will encourage a calmer state of mind; similar, to yoga, etc... But evidently, there is always dojos that are, and always will focus to much on kata; thus, those dojos will probably lack in combat effectiveness. You need a good balance
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Old 08-10-2005, 01:05 PM   #55
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Re: Kata Training and Aikido

Hi Roy,

Quote:
But evidently, there is always dojos that are, and always will focus to much on kata; thus, those dojos will probably lack in combat effectiveness.
Afraid I disagree on that statement. Yoshinkan aikido has a relatively heavy focus on kata. It has been said by many that it's effectiveness is fairly strong. You also mention kata for 'self study', but in aikido, kata is not 'self study' in the sense that there is a partner. Ebudo has some interesting thoughs on kata in aikido here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...ht=kata+shioda

Diane Skoss has some interesting thoughts on the same topic here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=5

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:07 PM   #56
Roy
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 118
Canada
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Re: Kata Training and Aikido

Oops! I think I'm getting confused with the term kata. I see kata as doing a set memorized forms by yourself. Please disregard my post.
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:11 AM   #57
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
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Re: Kata Training and Aikido

I would like to announce that after some profound meditation over a bottle of coke that I have uncovered the true purpose of kata...they are simply supposed to look good when preformed with a partner to dramatic music like "Eye of the Tiger". That is the entirety of it.
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