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Old 08-08-2005, 03:41 PM   #1
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
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Importance of defeat

I was just thinking the other day that the way I learned BJJ was vastly diffrent from how I am learning Daito. But there was a common thread in them: if you get defeated do it again and fix the problem.

The question is: do you think that being defeated is an essental part of training that is often overlooked. Basically, is it good to get your butt handed to you every once in a while to progress?
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Old 08-08-2005, 03:52 PM   #2
aikigirl10
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Re: Importance of defeat

Well , if you're never getting your butt handed to you then you are obviously not doing bad. So why change what already works?

But then on the other hand, being defeated once or twice can also tidy up a persons ego...
so i guess there are good and bad aspects.
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Old 08-08-2005, 03:53 PM   #3
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
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Re: Importance of defeat

Yea I think it is absolutely necessary. At the beginning one needs more guided training once one progresses it becomes less and less but I guess the benefit never goes away completely.

Also it is very important that you remember that there is always someone out there who is able to beat you.
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Old 08-08-2005, 04:05 PM   #4
aikigirl10
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Re: Importance of defeat

Well , if you're never getting your butt handed to you then you are obviously not doing bad. So why change what already works?

But then on the other hand, being defeated once or twice can also tidy up a persons ego...
so i guess there are good and bad aspects.

But physically defeat doesnt help a person at all.
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Old 08-08-2005, 04:19 PM   #5
akiy
 
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Re: Importance of defeat

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
Well , if you're never getting your butt handed to you then you are obviously not doing bad. So why change what already works?
My current instructor, despite his experience and ability to wipe the floor with the likes of me, will still experiment with concepts that may not be fully developed in his body. Even though he probably won't be "getting his butt handed to him" by me, he'll still keep training and changing what he is doing when I'm training with him. Pretty much all aikido people whom I admire lack this sort of complacency of being content with what they're currently doing. As one shihan said, "I still feel myself a work in progress."

As far as "defeat" goes, I don't personally believe myself to be "defeated" when my technique doesn't work. Heck, if I find myself being thrown when I'm supposed to be "nage/tori," I don't think I'm "defeated" -- rather, that I have some things I need to work on. It's just a part of the process for me, I guess...

-- Jun

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Old 08-08-2005, 05:22 PM   #6
Janet Rosen
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Re: Importance of defeat

Yeah, within aikido concept, I don't understand the assumption within the question.
I'm fulfilling a role and either doing it well or not; "defeat" implies a contest with another person and that is never part of my practice, even if we are doing counters.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:18 PM   #7
Keith R Lee
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Re: Importance of defeat

I think defeat is very important in terms of training for combat effectiveness or competition. Whether defeat matters in an Aikido context is a different story.

I think it's probably up to the practioner. Most Aikidoka (minus Shodothugs) never compete so it's probably not an issue. Also, Aikido is a DO art so combat effectivness is not the primary thrust either.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:25 PM   #8
maikerus
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Re: Importance of defeat

Defeat seems to be a loaded word with perhaps negative connentations.

I don't see Aikido training as experiencing "defeat" per se, but rather being given an opportunity to learn.

I also think that although the word "defeat" does not apply, I do see/feel just as much sense of frustration (if not more) when a technique does not work.

When I think back to my rugby years and when the team was "defeated" it actually was not as frustrating as not being able to do a technique. A game was sometimes won by skill, sometimes by luck, sometimes because of a mistake.

In my Aikido training, every time I am on the mats and every time I try and think about something to understand it I can get frustrated...this is probably worth more than the feeling of "defeat" in the greater scheme of things.

FWIW,

--Michael...not too coherent this Tuesday morning

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:38 PM   #9
DustinAcuff
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Re: Importance of defeat

Hmm. I think defeat may have been a bit too strong of a word for what I mean. I am more speaking of having people who are not afraid to challenge you and really push your limits. Like uke actually using what he knows to resist during randori type training so that you don't automatically "win" just because you are nage. During multiples and randori I have seen nage neutralized/tapped by uke a number of times. Not really being physically harmed by someone, but more of someone who will take advantage of whatever flaws you happen to have to make you aware of them. A good recent example was during some ushiro waza training uke took both my legs out from under me and it quickly became ground work and I was soon in a form of armbar.

My question is based on the word "defeat" being such a bad word in modern society. I think that it is important to have mistakes corrected, and if you will "die a thousand deaths" during your training to progress and find your flaws as well as to remain humble.

The words "winning," "losing," and "competition" are pretty meaningless in the context I am speaking of, more of having a challenge that you just didn't rise to at the time.
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Old 08-08-2005, 08:08 PM   #10
Roy
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Re: Importance of defeat

Being defeated helps one to become humble. It teaches one to be comfortable in making the most of the new reality of being defeated. Because, once you learn how to be defeated, you will understand and appreciate "plan B," the way to be defeated with as little damage as possible.
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Old 08-08-2005, 08:54 PM   #11
xuzen
 
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Re: Importance of defeat

There is one saying I know, I think it is Chinese in origin... "Defeat is the mother of success".

As for me... there is only one defeat I know; defeat is when I am no longer breathing. The rest are just little steps I must take to succeed.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 08-08-2005, 09:38 PM   #12
maikerus
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Re: Importance of defeat

I don't know. Saying good things about "defeat" seems like rationalization by some person who always lost to me :-)

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:20 PM   #13
RebeccaM
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Re: Importance of defeat

If you only train with people who are nice and compliant you learn nothing.
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:27 PM   #14
PeterR
 
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Re: Importance of defeat

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
I don't know. Saying good things about "defeat" seems like rationalization by some person who always lost to me :-)

--Michael
It is important to put yourself in positions where it is possible to be defeated.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:56 AM   #15
Keith R Lee
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Re: Importance of defeat

Again, my thrust is that is the difference between empirical and decuctive knowledge.

If one has never placed oneself in a situation where one might be defeated, how is that person supposed to react in that same situation when it presents itself?

Hypothesis are great, but they are only that hypothesis. Theories based upon actual, real experience are much more accurate.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-09-2005, 02:34 AM   #16
happysod
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Re: Importance of defeat

You mean I'm allowed to win sometimes??

Seriously, I'm as against the idea of always being invincible in the dojo as I am in the current fad in education of never failing, just being a deferred success. If my students can never plant me on my back and "win", I'm failing them. If I can't ever get my instructor in a bad position, I'm not training hard enough and I need some better options.

Dustin, your mention of nage/uke in randori is one of my aikido peeves as I believe it is prevalent blind spot in many dojos (including my own). As soon as you assign a nage/uke role it's almost as though you set up one poor slob for being planted with no recourse. Sure, there are options - we assign one of four levels of resistance to a technique, the fourth version actively encourages full resistance and tells nage to win - but to me there's still this little nagging bit where the "attacker" either unconsciously has already submitted to the technique or the attacks lose their coherence and honesty. Still playing with this one...
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:19 AM   #17
Jorx
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Re: Importance of defeat

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
There is one saying I know, I think it is Chinese in origin... "Defeat is the mother of success".

As for me... there is only one defeat I know; defeat is when I am no longer breathing. The rest are just little steps I must take to succeed.

Boon.
So Boon it is really easy for you - you hold your breath for a minute and come closer to enlightenment
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:43 AM   #18
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Importance of defeat

lol, Jorgen that was funny.

"Invest in loss" is the way I've heard it. Google this phrase for more info.

I hate losing so much I stopped competing and joined an aikido school .
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Old 08-09-2005, 11:14 AM   #19
Jetcar
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Re: Importance of defeat

See my signature below for my thoughts on this.
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