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Old 05-11-2001, 01:28 PM   #1
Erik
Location: Bay Area
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Unbendable Arm

An excellent presentation on the mysterious nature of extending ki.

http://ofinterest.net/ua/arm2.html

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Old 05-17-2001, 03:48 PM   #2
sanskara
 
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You don't think that just maybe Ki works in tandem with muscular strength and mental fortitude to create the effect?

Regards,
James Bostwick
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Old 06-05-2001, 07:14 AM   #3
ian
 
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I also have thought that ki is just a way to explain real physical body mechanics. However I find the concept also helps with pressure points and health and have given up questioning the exsitence of ki:

I find it easier to visualise and imagine ki than to think in mechanistic terms, therefore it is a simpler and more realistic approximation to reality than trying to think of the physics or psychology of it. Since all science is just an approximation to reality, surely the best and most appropriate approximation is the most accurate and useful?

For this reason, though I believe ki could be explained by science in a mechanistic way eventually (and the physical 'extension' side, rather than the health side can probably be done so already) visualising ki is more real to me than drawing vector diagrams with arrows indicating moments.

In some ways this illustrates our modern day 'religion of science' where we believe anything that is 'scientifically proven' is 100% true. There definately are no ultimate truths (except possibly in isolated logic systems like mathematics, though Kurt Godel even showed that any mathamatical theory has an intrinsic incongruency) - experience is everything.

Ian
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Old 06-08-2001, 08:12 PM   #4
Karl
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Of course the whole point of science is to prove thories wrong, or to prove thories, of course anything that seems like truth can always be proved wrong (at least that's what I think).

Peace to the world, then we will be happy, I think....
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Old 06-09-2001, 10:53 PM   #5
TheProdigy
Dojo: Aikido Kokikai Delaware
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Ki Symbol

Well, I read the article and it's exactly what I used to think. Since I used to think that though, I've seen it done with the arm bent too. So, I dont know if that disproves his theory or not, but if it helps you build ki go for it.

This wouldn't explain the extending of ki though. Really, it would only explain the effectiveness of relaxation to an extent (in my opinion).

In another demonstration of extending ki, the founder of kokikai who weighs only 130lbs, cannot be lifted off the ground at all. When people attempt to he doesn't lift an ounce. It's simply amazing.

-Jase

Jason Hobbs
"As you walk and eat and travel, be where you are. Otherwise you will miss most of your life."
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Old 06-10-2001, 01:46 PM   #6
Sid
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Here is an interesting idea - what that article is basically sating is that by relaxing, you bring your triceps into play. So why not take it to the other extreme - forcefully use the triceps muscle, by pushing down with your fist on your partners shoulder, and see if that makes the arm more or less "unbendable". Interesting - if it doesn't, then that articles' idea is wrong. If it does, then it's an even better use of body mechanincs.

Sid
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Old 06-18-2001, 09:09 AM   #7
ian
 
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The problem is with trying to 'force' your tricep down is that you tend to tense your bicep as well. Also, the 'down' position is not the direction you are trying to go - it is forward (your tricep extends your arm but doesn't necessarily push it down.) Mechanistically speaking, I feel that the downward force of uke is directed through the length of the arm on to uke's own shoulder by the forward extension of your arm (rather than a downward press).

Also (as Karl suggested), science can effectively disprove anything if you are stringent enough with your definitions (as Einstein said, 'a thousand experiments will prove me wrong but only one will prove me right').

Ian
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Old 06-18-2001, 04:55 PM   #8
Steve
Dojo: Salina Aikido Club
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Quote:
TheProdigy wrote:
Well, I read the article and it's exactly what I used to think. Since I used to think that though, I've seen it done with the arm bent too. So, I dont know if that disproves his theory or not, but if it helps you build ki go for it.

This wouldn't explain the extending of ki though. Really, it would only explain the effectiveness of relaxation to an extent (in my opinion).

In another demonstration of extending ki, the founder of kokikai who weighs only 130lbs, cannot be lifted off the ground at all. When people attempt to he doesn't lift an ounce. It's simply amazing.

-Jase
The unliftable body is a silly example of ki.The supposed unliftable isn't unliftable, it's just relaxed. It has little rigidity. This "soft" body is harder to maneuver in exactly the same way that a sand bag can be more difficult to lift than a plank weighing the same. Want to prove it? Easy enough.

Have the "unliftable" body lie down on a plank, stretcher, door, or any other rigid support. Now lift the support without touching the body. Easily done because the support negates the body's lack of rigidity.

The traditional unliftable body exercise (group of aikidoka gather around sensei laying on the mat and attempt to lift him) is the best example of the worst kind of teaching in aikido. If we are truly trying to learn something that makes us better humans, something that enhances our humanity, then we really need to think about what we are being taught, instead of following blindly. How can we begin to become better humans if we don't use that one tool (the mind) that defines us as humans? -- Steve

Steve Hoffman
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Old 06-18-2001, 08:42 PM   #9
TheProdigy
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Ki Symbol

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve


The unliftable body is a silly example of ki.The supposed unliftable isn't unliftable, it's just relaxed. It has little rigidity. This "soft" body is harder to maneuver in exactly the same way that a sand bag can be more difficult to lift than a plank weighing the same. Want to prove it? Easy enough.

Have the "unliftable" body lie down on a plank, stretcher, door, or any other rigid support. Now lift the support without touching the body. Easily done because the support negates the body's lack of rigidity.
I agree that the body must remain very relaxed, but it is the mind(directing ki perhaps..) that makes it harder to lift the person. In regards to the sand bag idea, the sand bag is lifted. It may become harder to do so because it's harder to grab, but it still moves. When 2 bodybuilders working together can't lift an 130lbs man off the floor(grabbing his very solid wrists) I'd say it has a bit more to do than simply being relaxed. Personally, I'm not experienced enough to explain it, but when such a high ranking individual teaches it, I accept it until I can prove otherwise.

As for putting them on a plank, then you're not really lifting the person, you're lifting the plank. The person is unliftable in relation to what they're standing on. Obviously, if you're on the 2nd floor in a building doing this, the person won't fly through the floor to the basement. The same thing would apply with anything, including a plank, door, etc. I'd guess the reason is that the plank isn't directing the ki. The person doesn't literally gain weight. Maybe it's a matter of blending with the ground(or plank)?

I really don't know how or why, but the sand bag idea doesn't seem much for disproving it in my eyes. You still get a very good grip on the person. Granted, when they are like a sand bag, it makes it harder, but not unliftable.

Out of curiousity though, do you feel the same way about Kokyu Dosa?

Great topic by the way,
-Jase

Jason Hobbs
"As you walk and eat and travel, be where you are. Otherwise you will miss most of your life."
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Old 06-19-2001, 05:01 AM   #10
ian
 
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I would think myself that relaxation could explain it. It is well known that trying to lift a dead body is very difficult. However I would disagree that it is a useless exercise. It's a good way to illustrate how relaxation can prevent yourself being thrown or manipulated (in a similar way to the way you can manipulate someone as soon as they tense their shoulders in seated Kokyu ho excercise). However I'm no authority on this as people usually have no problem lifting me!

Ian
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Old 06-19-2001, 06:40 AM   #11
DemonD
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Quote:
Originally posted by ian
I would think myself that relaxation could explain it. It is well known that trying to lift a dead body is very difficult. However I would disagree that it is a useless exercise. It's a good way to illustrate how relaxation can prevent yourself being thrown or manipulated (in a similar way to the way you can manipulate someone as soon as they tense their shoulders in seated Kokyu ho excercise). However I'm no authority on this as people usually have no problem lifting me!

Ian
I have done this lifting exercise in a different way with lifting my sensi in a bear hug. Technically his rib cage is rigid and should be unaffected by relaxation and yet he was still much more difficult to lift. I only managed to lift my sensei by using my ki to visualize severing his links to the floor. This raises an interesting question on whether uke can use his/her Ki to negate or modify nage's ki in a technique. Alas I an not skill enough to attempt this but perhaps more experinced Aikidoka have already attempted this.
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Old 06-19-2001, 09:59 AM   #12
Steve
Dojo: Salina Aikido Club
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheProdigy


RE: unliftable body experiment:

As for putting them on a plank, then you're not really lifting the person, you're lifting the plank. The person is unliftable in relation to what they're standing on. ... The same thing would apply with anything, including a plank, door, etc. ...

Great topic by the way,
-Jase
What about the unliftable person's gi? If a gi is between the person and the ground, shouldn't that body become unliftable in relation to the gi but not the ground? (Substitute "plank" for "gi".) If not, then what's so magical about a gi that it gets included in the unliftable body effect whereas a plank isn't? -- Steve

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Old 06-19-2001, 11:53 AM   #13
Jim23
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And what if the dogi were made of double-weight, high-density cotton?

It would be unliftable and unbendable.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 06-19-2001, 02:15 PM   #14
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
And what if the dogi were made of double-weight, high-density cotton?

It would be unliftable and unbendable.

Jim23
If one never washed one's gi, I suspect no one would ever try to lift it.
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Old 06-19-2001, 02:33 PM   #15
Jim23
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Mr Erik,

I think you might be onto something here. You could also send multiple attackers hurling without any great effort. Heck, you could even defeat yourself by just training hard all summer!

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 06-19-2001, 08:16 PM   #16
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheProdigy


I agree that the body must remain very relaxed, but it is the mind(directing ki perhaps..) that makes it harder to lift the person. In regards to the sand bag idea, the sand bag is lifted. It may become harder to do so because it's harder to grab, but it still moves. When 2 bodybuilders working together can't lift an 130lbs man off the floor(grabbing his very solid wrists) I'd say it has a bit more to do than simply being relaxed. Personally, I'm not experienced enough to explain it, but when such a high ranking individual teaches it, I accept it until I can prove otherwise.
If they're grabbing his wrists then in addition to the advantage of relaxation he also has the advantage of being able to direct the angles of force slightly (which is all you need).

Think about it - if 2 bodybuilders really couldn't lift 130 lbs because of the mind directing Ki then we're talking about a previously unproven force that violates the current laws of physics. The person that can prove the existence of such a force really ought to be flying to Sweden to collect their Nobel :-).

I have great respect for my instructors, but I don't listen to them blindly.


Quote:

Out of curiousity though, do you feel the same way about Kokyu Dosa?
Huh?

Best,

Chris
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