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Old 08-18-2005, 09:15 PM   #51
Pankration90
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Easy way to check. Stand on some nice slick ice sometime, raise your leg until it is horizontal, and then swing your leg exactly horizontal into a buddy of yours. If you can even start the swing, you'll be lucky. You can get somewhat a *near* idea of the same thing by sitting on a smoothly-pivoting barstool (very smoothe), putting one arm out horizontally and then swinging it horizontally into a willing partner (keeping all other limbs still). I think you'll find that there's more to the standing leg in a side-kick than just a support from which you raise the kicking leg. It's still Newton's Third Law of Motion.
Mike, how can you say that when I just posted a gif of Yves Edwards generating enough power to KO his opponent without having his foot firmly on the ground? Power doesn't come from the ground during a roundhouse kick. Btw, you don't raise your leg up and then turn, you use the momentum of swinging your leg to turn. There is no "push" with the supporting leg to create power, so the ground doesn't help. The ground just gives you something to pivot on, nothing more.

Btw, I've said several times I'm not talking about a side kick and I seriously doubt the original poster was either. Swinging a baseball bat isn't a good analogy for a side kick...

Quote:
Sure, but watch the leg on the ground straightening so that he derives his power.
His leg is straightening because of the momentum of his other leg. Try kicking high with a lot power while keeping your other leg bent... he is not using his supporting leg to push on the ground to create power.

Have you ever been taught the thai roundhouse?
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Old 08-18-2005, 09:45 PM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Well, we'll just have to disagree, Phillip. Show your clip to a physics professor sometime.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-18-2005, 11:00 PM   #53
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Alright, but I don't think a physics professor is going to tell me that by pushing against the ground (which would make you go up) you cause your body to turn.
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Old 08-18-2005, 11:39 PM   #54
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

However, he will tell you that a ground reaction force was relevant to that knock-out. On the other side, however, he won't tell you that the ground reaction force was the greatest and/or the most primary force involved (since such a force can only be equal to the force that is acting upon at the same time that it remains reactionary to that force).

Here are some relevant (and cool) links that help explain this stuff scientifically:


http://btc.montana.edu/olympics/phys...ssary/g07.html

http://www.cwu.edu/~acquisto/movement.htm

http://guardian.curtin.edu.au/cga/te.../friction.html

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/...ics-soccer.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/fpte10.htm

http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/soccer/109/

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/energy/U5L1d.html

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/207/4/667

David M. Valadez
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Old 08-19-2005, 12:26 AM   #55
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I'd say that there's ways to kick where you can use more of the gravity force more efficiently than others.
Kyokushin and Karate in general tend to rely more on localized hip/waist power to drive the leg, using the pivot leg only as a pivot, which results in a more "surface" type of hit.

Thai kicks on the other hand, actually do rely more on that gravity force since they rely more on spinal strength, as well as the "stretch" from the middle as they kick. You'll notice the typical thai boxer kicks standing more "straight" than other people. There's a reason their kicks feel "penetrating".

And I'd disagree that the power(or well, most effecient power) comes from pushing the ground. If you "push" off the ground, it's too slow. Your entire body has to be able to take advantage of the gravity force as one unit. So, to a degree, having the foot planted completely or not, isn't the biggest factor. It's whether your body is "connected" as one unit.

I've seen my instructor over here kick in a slightly different manner from the thais, and despite weighing only about 60kgs, manages to knock the legs out from guys that weigh 100+ kg, in a stable stance. In his case, his supporting leg remains rooted, but its still his overall posture/connection that generates the power.
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Old 08-19-2005, 06:44 AM   #56
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

If I get shot out of a cannon, and through a kick at you while still accelerating I'll knock you out without having my other foot on the ground. But the power didn't primarily "come from" my hip. It came from the cannon, which pushed me at you by exploding me away from where it was "grounded". Draw a line of power, and tell me where it came from.

I had a friend in aikido who told me that she got these special dojo shoes because she found that there where times when she just needed more traction. She would have been much better off training in very slippery socks. Obviously, you need "some" friction, but it's amazing how much less is needed if you hold your body squarely over your center.

Rob
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Old 08-19-2005, 08:01 AM   #57
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
And I'd disagree that the power(or well, most effecient power) comes from pushing the ground. If you "push" off the ground, it's too slow. Your entire body has to be able to take advantage of the gravity force as one unit. So, to a degree, having the foot planted completely or not, isn't the biggest factor. It's whether your body is "connected" as one unit.
I can't speak for the other "ground" espousers, but I never suggested that "pushing the ground" was the important part. The important part is to be able to transmit a relaxed path from your hand or foot all the way through to the ground so that your opponent feels this ground, along with the various methods of storing and releasing (enhancing the power) of this path to the ground. The control of this path is normally what the "hara" is supposed to do, but in Aikido a lot of people make the hips the primary power-control point. I'm aware that some of the big-time players, like Abe Sensei, know how to generate power with the actual hara, but I'm not sure how many total can do it.

Because the path from the ground is so solid, it is probably the primary factor, but as I've said, there's still a combination of factors in any movement. The hips, etc., are more like auxilliaries. Don't forget the the ki! If you want to get an idea of how the ki itself works, it works very much like the what the Heechee do to derive their power.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-19-2005, 08:42 AM   #58
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Took the words out of my mouth Mike
The ground "path" is indeed what I was trying to get at.
Unfortunately a lot of people conceptualize this as "pushing" off the ground and using the resulting force, which is what I was referring to as being too slow.
And yea, the hara is merely a conduit, combined with expansion/contraction of your body to generate power. (Its prolly why the thais get so much power out of their kicks, cuz they got a strong notion to "expand" when they kick)
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Old 08-19-2005, 09:13 AM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
And yea, the hara is merely a conduit, combined with expansion/contraction of your body to generate power. (Its prolly why the thais get so much power out of their kicks, cuz they got a strong notion to "expand" when they kick)
Hi Robert:

Well, I think of the "hara" as being a nexus that is *functionally* connected out to the rest of the body (after you develop that connection) and it's also a pressure reservoir. Not merely a conduit. I use hips for power in the same way I use my knees, elbows, etc., but I use my center for my primary power to manipulate and "store" power, so my "release" or expansion is probably somewhat more different still.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-19-2005, 12:08 PM   #60
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

The only purpose the ground serves is giving you something to pivot on.

If you don't lift your leg and turn your hips, there is no kick. That kick doesn't happen because of the ground. The kick isn't caused by pivoting on the ground, you pivot because of the kick.

This isn't a punch where you drive your legs into the ground to generate power. This is a kick where you swing your leg up at the target and turn. You're trying to over think it. When you do this kick, you are not trying to root yourself to the ground for power. You are trying to fight gravity, inertia, and friction so you can swing your leg as fast as possible into the target.

By your logic, if someone is simply standing still then the ground is pushing against them so there is "power". That doesn't make sense though; if no work is being done then there can't be power.

Last edited by Pankration90 : 08-19-2005 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 08-19-2005, 12:12 PM   #61
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Here's a quote about the mechanics of the thai round house:
Quote:
Muay Thai roundkick mechanics
The Muay Thai roundhouse kick is swung around "dead-legged" style. In other words, imagine that your leg is a baseball bat. That means that the knee does not exist. Now, to get that leg to swing around and through a target, you have to use your hip to swing it around.

Let's break it down. Pretend that your leg is in a cast from the ankle to just below your hip. Your knee is immobile. You have to swing the kick around like a baseball bat to strike through your target.

First, step at an angle. You lean in the way that you are stepping, which is
coincidentally the opposite direction from your kicking leg. (that is an important item to note, I'm coming back to it in a moment)
As you step, you should already partially rotate your support foot, and you should also be up on the ball of your foot. Do not step flat-footed.

Now that you have taken that step and the kick is beginning to launch (remember, your leg is immobilized and you have to swing it with your hip) you must pivot on your support foot, LEANING AWAY from your kicking leg throughout the entire motion!
The heel of your pivot foot should have turned all the way towards the target during the kick. Or, you can think of it as turning your knee completely away from the target. You should keep your leg semi-stiff throughout the swing of the kick, tensing it up at impact. You should point the toes of your kicking foot during the kick. This tightens up the muscles and tendons in the foot and ankle, which will prevent injury if you catch your target wrong, such as when you misjudge your distance when you kick and catch your target with your toes. Now, lets go back to that "lean away" item again. By leaning away from the kicking leg, you are actually transferring your full upper body weight into the kick. How? Well, I am not a physicist, but this has to do with that law regarding for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. But, rather than discuss physics, just think of it like this. Have you ever swung a baseball bat? Or a golf club? In both cases, as you swing the club or bat, your upper body always swings around opposite of the club or bat. Leaned away from it! Baseball players do not hunch into their swing unless they are bunting. Rather,
they lean back, or away from the bat and try to knock the sucker out of the park!
http://www.subfighter.com/article933

There is no mention of rooting your supporting leg, pushing off the ground, or anything. The ground just gives you something to pivot on.
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Old 08-19-2005, 12:22 PM   #62
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Exactly philip. Even with a round house where the knee is bent and you snap it out , there is no kicking off from the ground. The kicks that would start with a kicking off motion would be kicks in the air, a front kick from your back leg , or a double kick. Anybody who has been taught kicks should know this. If you have never been taught kicks and you are posting on this thread ... well i guess you just like to argue.
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Old 08-19-2005, 12:42 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
By your logic, if someone is simply standing still then the ground is pushing against them so there is "power". That doesn't make sense though; if no work is being done then there can't be power.
"When still, he is as immoveable as a mountain; When moving he is as irresistable as a great wave".
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Old 08-19-2005, 01:01 PM   #64
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Does anyone have an analog (ie not digital) body weight scale? If so, can they please stand on it on one leg then do a roundhouse kick or a side kick to see if the perceived "weight" on the scale changes?

Curiously,

-- Jun

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Old 08-19-2005, 01:34 PM   #65
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

There's no doubt that the scale would change since lifting the leg in the kick would spark the ground reaction force. In fact, really, there's no need to kick, just get a decent scale and try and lift one foot off of it - the scale will move (maybe up to five or ten pounds on most folks). There is also a similar effect (i.e. a ground reaction force) once the target is struck (should the kicker have one foot on the ground at the moment of impact).

In the flying roundhouse kick in the animated gif, the ground reaction force is involved first in the launch and then as a resistance energy (via Newton's first law) which assists the kicker's physiological constructs in rotating the hips/leg/body/etc. into the kick.

David M. Valadez
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Old 08-19-2005, 03:12 PM   #66
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
"When still, he is as immoveable as a mountain; When moving he is as irresistable as a great wave".
That doesn't prove that there is "power" while standing still. For there to be "power", work has to be done over time. If someone is standing still, there is no work. No work means no power.

The ground reaction force can't be used to generate power in a kick because according to newton's third law, it is exactly equal to the force you put on the ground. It's not going to push you up or make you go faster. The only way to generate power using the ground is to drive into it with your legs, which is not done while doing a roundhouse kick.

Edit: I just went and stood on a non-digital scale and lifted my leg. When I lifted it the needle went back and forth a little but that's because my supporting leg was on the side of the scale, not the middle. After a second or two my weight went back to normal- you don't get heavier by standing on one foot.

Last edited by Pankration90 : 08-19-2005 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 08-19-2005, 04:59 PM   #67
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Just to keep things clear...

The ground reaction force is equal in duration as well - so you should only be able to measure it in this experiment as you are lifting the leg. Once the leg is lifted, that first difference measured returns to or near "zero" (especially if there is no further movement of the leg in question). The needle did not go back and forth because you were on one side of the scale - as if that were the case the needle would actually go down in weight - not up (which is what happens). In such an experiment, it is not that you get heavier, but that a force (separate from weight/gravity) is acting in an equal and opposite manner to that which is being used to lift your leg. Simply put: You can't lift any body part up (e.g. raising your arm) - let alone lift something off of the ground - without the presence of the ground reaction force (assuming you are on the ground).

David M. Valadez
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Old 08-19-2005, 05:37 PM   #68
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

senshincenter,
Even if the needle was going back and forth (so the weight went down and up, not just up) because I was lifting my leg and not because I was on one side of the scale, I was still raising my leg using my own muscles. My leg didn't raise because of the ground. There is no way to use grf to kick.
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Old 08-19-2005, 06:08 PM   #69
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Hi Phillip,

Yes, it is accurate to say that you raised your leg - the physiological components of your body are the primary energy here (not the reaction energy). The leg didn't move because the ground moved. This is very true. The ground is not the primary force in this regards. However, because you are on the ground, GRF is so intertwined (according to Newton's third law) with lifting, thrusting, forward movement, braking, etc., that it is equally not accurate to say that such force is irrelevant. According to Newton's third law, science considers force to exist in pairs - called "action-reaction force pairs." If you don't have this pairing you wouldn't be lifting your foot were you standing on the ground - let alone kicking. I realize you are probably picturing being able to raise your thigh to your lower abdomen while floating in space, but there is no ground in such a scenario and this is the only reason why the action-reaction force pairing is made up of different elements (such as different muscles pulling against other muscles). Nevertheless, when the ground is present, the force pairing occurs (simultaneously) with the simultaneous lifting of the leg and the ground "pushing" back. Without this pairing, nothing lifts. Sure, it's freaky, it's mind-bending maybe, but it's science. If you look at the links I provided above, especially the first three or four, you can read about all of this stuff for yourself.

david

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Old 08-19-2005, 07:57 PM   #70
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Here's a quote about the mechanics of the thai round house:

http://www.subfighter.com/article933

There is no mention of rooting your supporting leg, pushing off the ground, or anything. The ground just gives you something to pivot on.
Cuz that's only one way of kicking. You do know that there's multiple ways of kicking. If you kick like that article describes, you will kick with some penetration, but you won't get the entire ground path to flow to the other leg. The impact won't "enter" as deeply. (We've tested this at our school w/ a number of Muay Thai students that kick the air shield, and the impact always stops maybe about a couple inches in)
If you can figure out how to kick a round with your "supporting" leg rather than the hip and twist/transfer of the upper body weight by leaning back, you'll knock someone's legs from clean out under them. Feels kind of like a double leg shoot if you do it properly.
However, if you kick w/ the intent in the supporting leg, you'll also realize that the highest one you can do is a medium low.
If you raise any higher then you do have to lean back.

On an anecdote, you can also use this same power generation for a front kick. Most karate people lean back when they thrust kick, using that upper body weight to generate power.
If you do the same kick, w/out leaning back, and figuring a way to keep your body "axis" in line while moving forward, you'll find the kick will go straight through the target, kind of like cutting through butter, or that "double-leg shoot" feel.
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Old 08-19-2005, 11:00 PM   #71
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Yes Upyu I know there are several different ways of kicking, I said I was talking about the thai roundhouse several times. I think it's odd that you said the thai boxers only penetrated a couple inches, but if you watch a decent thai boxer miss with a kick they spin in a complete circle. The follow through is so strong that it allows their whole body to turn. Keep in mind there is no single way to do the thai roundhouse as well.

Senshincenter,
Without gravity you wouldn't be able to lean back to add power to the kick, pivot, etc... I'm not trying to say you can do that kick in zero gravity. I'm just saying that the kick is not caused by the ground, and the power isn't caused by the ground either. The ground is a factor, yes, but it's not what causes the kick to be effective. The ground is there for all kicks, but the mechanics of the thai roundhouse are what separates it.
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Old 08-19-2005, 11:31 PM   #72
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Again - I think the sites I linked above would give you the information you require to better understand what an action-reaction force pair is and how it is functioning in a kick (of any kind). Thai tactics are not going to ever fall outside of these parameters. Science is science.

Your issue seems to be with the word "cause." If you read my very first post in this thread, where I address how folks are using this word (or a similar idea) in two different ways (as the primary/first aspect and as the overall engine involved) you might also gain a better understanding of the physics involved. As I said then, if one is looking for the "first" aspect involved in the kick, you are going to have to look to many physical components located in the body that work simultaneously to generate the initial force. These are mentioned in one of the links I gave above - along with what part they are playing mechanically. If you are looking to see "cause" the other way, you are going to have to include those physiological components, along with a whole lot of other forces particular to this planet, PLUS the ground. In either case, primacy (nor greater significance) cannot be given to the leg, the hip, (nor the ground) - which was my first point in this discussion.

dmv

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Old 08-20-2005, 12:08 AM   #73
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

i really dont understand how there are so many people posting here who truly believe that one's power comes from the ground. Its over my head. When i first read this post i thought to myself "wow, this one'll last about 2 minutes" Apparently i was mistaken.

I'm not sure i even grasp the concept here. Are you guys (people who think power is derived from the dirt) saying that kick power comes from kicking off of the ground ? Or , are you guys just totally zen and saying that "all power comes from the center of the earth and when i start to kick this magical nonsense runs through the magma and up into my leg to give me strength to throw my leg into the air"? I think there are people here with both points of view.

I think Jean had a good point for once by saying that your body is a lever. The axis is the ground the hips are the ballast. The ballast does the work the axis allows it to take place. Nothing more, end of story. Simple science.

What i'm trying to get at is, what are the 'ground' people saying and what are the 'hip' people saying because this will decide for me whether or not i want to continue posting here. If we are discussing the facts of science then yes , i'd be more than happy to join in. If we are discussing some make-believe force from man-made asphalt we walk on then no, i dont want to keep posting because that is just ridiculous.

Please enlighten me , in laymans terms , hell, im only 15 ;-)

Paigie Frazie
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Old 08-20-2005, 12:54 AM   #74
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Yes Upyu I know there are several different ways of kicking, I said I was talking about the thai roundhouse several times. I think it's odd that you said the thai boxers only penetrated a couple inches, but if you watch a decent thai boxer miss with a kick they spin in a complete circle. The follow through is so strong that it allows their whole body to turn. Keep in mind there is no single way to do the thai roundhouse as well.
WHen the kick connects, it only penetrates a couple of inches. Try it some time. Hold an airshield against your shin and have a heavy weight thai boxer kick you. It'll feel like a baseball bat slammed into it, but it won't actually disrupt your center that much.
Btw, if you watch a decent kyokushin guy miss with a kick, he'll spin full circle too, so that's not really a measure of "penetration" at all.
It's actually the generation of "circular" force, rather than relying on gravity and body's natural structure which impedes more "penetration".
I'll see if I can't get a video up sometime w/ the difference.
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Old 08-20-2005, 03:19 AM   #75
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

As for my position in regards to the part the ground plays in kicking...

Paige, "ground reaction force" is a scientific term. As I said, if folks check out the links listed above and/or just do a google search on "ground reaction force" one will see how the ground is indeed involved with the force of and the possibility of the kick. It's not advanced or theoretical physics - it's very basic stuff and it is readily available all over the net. If anything is hocus pocus, it is really the idea that one can generate force without an opposite and equal reaction.

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