Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-17-2005, 10:13 PM   #26
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,452
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
Power comes from the mind. Without the mind there would be no force to kick or swing a baseball bat or what have u . The ground and the hips and appendages are all just tools that the mind uses to accomplish whatever it sets out to do .

My theory (and some uncommon deep thinking (for me))
An interesting thought, to be sure. But a bulldozer is but an appendage the mind uses when it sets out to move a mountain. But without the bulldozer, the mountain stays put. Without physical training and perfection of physical technique, the "tools" the mind needs would be absent and what the mind produces would be only ideas. The development of the mind and the physical body are not mutually exclusive, especially when work is to be done. Otherwise, Albert Einstein could have kicked everybody's ass...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2005, 11:13 PM   #27
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 801
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Power can come from the ground through the feet - up the legs, through the hips etc. It can also originate in the hips. An example of the former is any pushing or pulling technique. An example of the latter might be a downblow smashing a board. But then, even though the downblow itself requires no help from the ground, the twist of the hips to set it up still originates in the feet.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 10:19 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Power can come from the ground through the feet - up the legs, through the hips etc. It can also originate in the hips. An example of the former is any pushing or pulling technique. An example of the latter might be a downblow smashing a board. But then, even though the downblow itself requires no help from the ground, the twist of the hips to set it up still originates in the feet.
Basic power can come from the ground or from gravity... hence the vague comments about the ki of earth and the ki of heaven. Of course that doesn't tell you much (and it's not meant to, in those old sayings).

You could say that power comes from the ground in some example, but if you put a hydraulic jack on the ground and under a weight, you can certainly apply more power than if there was just a stick between the ground and the weight. If you stack 2 hydraulic jacks under the load, you can lift more weigth. And so on. Any application of power depends on the ground (or gravity if it's downward; or a combination of the two if it's outward), but the actual power depends on how many power points you can insert between the ground and the point of application (trying to not let the power factors interfere with each other).

So power should use the ground, but the best way is to let the ground be transmitted uninterruptedly through the body. Then you add the strength of the legs, the strength of the hips, the strength of the back, and any other cute additives that you can come up with... they all add up, just as the stacked hydraulic jacks did. "Ki" and "Kokyu" can be looked at a 'cute additives to overall power'. It's these additives that have allowed small people to become famously strong martial artists (apart from their technique, etc., of course).

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 10:34 AM   #29
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Yes, everything must work together , but the mind initiates it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 11:10 AM   #30
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/...ine=1122269635
There's a pic of Mirko Filipovic kicking. Where in that gif is he pushing off the ground more than he needs to in order to hold himself up? The power comes from the turning of the hips and swinging the leg like a baseball bat, not from pushing off of the ground.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 11:26 AM   #31
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
[IMG]Where in that gif is he pushing off the ground more than he needs to in order to hold himself up?
Newton's third law. He lifts his leg to kick and he turns the kick to the side; there will be an increased force in the leg as he raises the other one. Friction and force keep his foot from moving as he turns the kick to the side. In other words, without additional forces applied to the ground, he couldn't kick. However, the conditioning and skill of various factors (like joint strength, etc.) are the "hydraulic jacks" (additive factors) inserted between the ground and what he kicks. But the ground is the source he must have above all else.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 11:33 AM   #32
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,852
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/...ine=1122269635
There's a pic of Mirko Filipovic kicking. Where in that gif is he pushing off the ground more than he needs to in order to hold himself up? The power comes from the turning of the hips and swinging the leg like a baseball bat, not from pushing off of the ground.
Hmm... I wonder how much power he (or anyone) would have if he were performing the same kick on a heavy bag while standing on a totally slippery surface (like an iced over pond)?

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 12:16 PM   #33
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Maybe there are two different perspectives going on in this thread - which is why folks are saying "taste great" "less filling." ???

It almost seems as if there are different questions being asked and so folks are coming up with different answers. Maybe this might help (maybe not):

If you want to say where does power come from in terms of something like the origin of movement -- then you are going to have to look to the body first, not the ground. The ground does not move in a kick nor do we require the ground to move our body. However, it would not be correct to say that this kind of power (origin/source of movement) comes from the hips and/or the hara. In fact, such movement comes from many constructs of the body pushing and pulling against each other, so you'd have to mention them all and/or you'd have to increase your understanding of what "hara" means in order to capture them all -- in my opinion.

If you want to say where does power come from in terms of something like generated force at impact -- then you are going to have to look at things of the body AND things of environmental relevance as well. In this case, I do not think you can cover everything by just saying "the ground" -- there are other factors/forces (e.g. gravity, friction, inertia, weight of the target, resistance, etc.) relevant here that come together to increase or decrease (should some be absent) power at impact.

In this sense, I think Mike, and many others that have also talked about combination of factors -- including Paige with mentioning the relevance of the mind -- etc., has described things well, only I would suggest that we then do not go on to pick any one factor over the others as "the most important." In my opinion, whether you are talking about the origin of movement or whether you are talking about force at impact, you are going to be talking about an aggregate. To hear that and to then ask, "Yeah, but which one do you really need?," after the fact has been pointed out, is to not understand the original premise fully.

My opinion,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 12:56 PM   #34
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hmm... I wonder how much power he (or anyone) would have if he were performing the same kick on a heavy bag while standing on a totally slippery surface (like an iced over pond)?

-- Jun
Understood. And as I understand it, if Master Hwang Kee were standing on a totally slippery surface like an iced over pond, I think he'd blast through the heavy bag. I'm told that was his main point of how to train striking power. I heard "Gravity is the grace of god, and friction is the evil of men" and it seemed to apply well to martial art power.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 01:04 PM   #35
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
In this sense, I think Mike, and many others that have also talked about combination of factors -- including Paige with mentioning the relevance of the mind -- etc., has described things well, only I would suggest that we then do not go on to pick any one factor over the others as "the most important." In my opinion, whether you are talking about the origin of movement or whether you are talking about force at impact, you are going to be talking about an aggregate. To hear that and to then ask, "Yeah, but which one do you really need?," after the fact has been pointed out, is to not understand the original premise fully.
Sure, it's obviously a combination of factors. However, the ground is the most important factor to consider when developing a kick, which is what I think the original poster was asking. He was discussing whether the power of a kick came from the ground or from the hip.

Of course you need some strength in the hip for a kick, but you should focus on the ground, IMO. A quick way to understand what I'm saying is to do a side-kick at a wall or hanging back. In one kick, kick in whatever version of side-kick you normally use, but kick directly into the target (like you were trying to break a board at that point). Focus on the role the hip plays. In the second kick, roughly mimic the first kick but focus on straightening the ground-standing leg so that the power is generated by the straightening of the leg on the ground. Hopefully, the example will highlight the importance of the power from the leg on the ground in answer to the original question. And of course there are a number of other contributing factors to any good kick, as well.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 01:10 PM   #36
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Understood. And as I understand it, if Master Hwang Kee were standing on a totally slippery surface like an iced over pond, I think he'd blast through the heavy bag. I'm told that was his main point of how to train striking power.
??? Standing on ice was his main point or am I misunderstanding you? Are you saying that Hwang Kee did this sort of thing or are you speculating that he could have? Since Newton's Third Law says that for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction, where would the reactionary force go?

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 02:41 PM   #37
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I thought that might be confusing. I believe the main point was to perform movements while almost completely on balance. Dan Mesisco sensei spoke of training so that you do not rely on any 'extra' friction to help you find ways to always move from "your place" even when your place seemed to be moving all around the room. My understanding of this is that Hwang Kee was able to do some mastery type things that would be similar to what I expect Tohei would be doing when standing on one leg, and/or staying extra heavy. So a really slippery surface to me, might not be all that slippery to him. So I'm not saying physics doesn't apply to someone. I more meant that we (the folks who would be sliding all over the place trying to kick while standing on a slippery surface) waste a lot of energy compared to the few folks who would not be sliding around all that much while kicking much harder than the rest of us.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-18-2005 at 02:43 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 03:45 PM   #38
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Unless you can somehow kick him straight up, vertically, there will be a horizontal component to the forces. You can't "translate" a horizontal force to being vertical (although you can add vector components, but that too would make you slip). So if there are horizontal components to the force you apply with the kick, you are totally dependent upon the coefficient of friction at the sole of your shoe. I.e., you'll slip and bust your butt.

If Tohei is on a slippery surface, I promise you that he'll slide backwards, assuming you have a good grip on the floor. Even if he attempts to apply an "aiki" through the contact, he can't get around the horizontal forces, so he'll slide.


Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 04:08 PM   #39
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Well, yeah, that's the extreme. I'm not trying to claim that anyone is breaking the laws of physics.

Take two people and have them walk over what would generally be considered a very slippery surface. Have one of them walk across while consciously feeling the weight of their body over their feet, and let the other one just walk the way they normally walk. Both will have the same amount of friction available to them, but one will need less to stay balanced.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 05:42 PM   #40
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Sorry I don't have time to read all the replies, but I read the two after my last post.

I'm not denying that the ground isn't involved at all while kicking. My point is that the ground is not the cause of the power, nor does it add any power. You turn on the ground, not because of it.

That kick in its simplest form is just lifting the leg and turning the body like it is an axle. The leg swings around and crashes into the target like a baseball bat. No where in that kick are you pushing against the ground in an attempt to kick harder. I'll try to give two examples:

1) You don't have to pivot on the ball of your foot. You could kick like Ramon Dekker, who turns one foot to the side, plants it flat on the ground, and the turns his whole body until it is aligned with that foot while swinging his leg around. It doesn't involve any pushing motion against the ground.

2) In one of the recent UFC's, Yves Edwards (I think that's his name) attempted a high kick, lost his balance/footing, and fell down. The kick still had plenty of power even though his foot wasn't "rooted" to the ground. Why? He lifted his leg and turned his hips while doing so. Jun, I hope that answers your question; you can kick on a slippery surface with a lot of power but losing balance is likely.

Last edited by Pankration90 : 08-18-2005 at 05:54 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 05:52 PM   #41
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Sorry I don't have time to read all the replies, but I read the two after my last post.

I'm not denying that the ground doesn't play a part in it, but you turn on the ground, not because of it. The power is neither caused by the ground nor by pushing on the ground; the power is caused by swinging your leg and turning your hips.

Jun, you can do that kick on ice with plenty of power. You'd probably fall down after it, though.
Actually, you'd fall down trying to do it. Newton's Third Law doesn't say "For every action there will later be an equal an opposite reaction"... it happens immediately. No ground, no power. (People who leap into the air and kick using momentum got that momentum ahead of the kick, BTW... and it ain't all that powerful if you have any martial training, as many people well know).

Insofar as "swinging your leg and turning your hips" I agree that those things can be additive components, if that's what you do. I do the same things some times, but in almost all times I add other things in the power chain. But without the ground running in an unbroken line through you're body, you're leaving money on the table, IMO.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 05:58 PM   #42
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Mike, I assumed that the original poster was talking about a roundhouse/turning kick and not a side or front kick because he mentioned swinging a baseball bat. When you're doing a roundhouse kick, you do not push off of the ground to gain power. You don't rely on the friction between your feet and the ground for power. All you need is to be able to raise your leg and turn your hips- that is the kick right there.

If you can't raise your leg and turn while on ice before falling down I think you need to work on your kicking a little.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 06:04 PM   #43
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

even for a side kick you dont need to push off the ground. All you do is raise your knee and push out with your heel. The only purpose the ground serves is for standing on the other leg.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 06:06 PM   #44
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

And, front kicks from the front leg dont require pushing off either. Front kicks from the back leg yes, but from the front leg, not really.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 06:07 PM   #45
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Agreed.

Here is a gif of Yves Edwards:

Last edited by Pankration90 : 08-18-2005 at 06:12 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 07:58 PM   #46
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Sure, it's obviously a combination of factors. However, the ground is the most important factor to consider when developing a kick, which is what I think the original poster was asking. He was discussing whether the power of a kick came from the ground or from the hip.

Of course you need some strength in the hip for a kick, but you should focus on the ground, IMO. A quick way to understand what I'm saying is to do a side-kick at a wall or hanging back. In one kick, kick in whatever version of side-kick you normally use, but kick directly into the target (like you were trying to break a board at that point). Focus on the role the hip plays. In the second kick, roughly mimic the first kick but focus on straightening the ground-standing leg so that the power is generated by the straightening of the leg on the ground. Hopefully, the example will highlight the importance of the power from the leg on the ground in answer to the original question. And of course there are a number of other contributing factors to any good kick, as well.

FWIW

Mike

But even in this example you are sighting both the leg (i.e. straightening the ground-standing leg) AND the ground are mentioned.

Another way of looking at this, for me, is to see that folks are wondering about something that might be considered analogous to wondering about what causes the power in a pole vault. Is it the ground, the pole, or the athlete's physiology? Answer: All of them. Follow up question: Can you do a pole vault without the ground? Answer: No. Can you do a pole vault without a pole (or with a pole that will telescope down as the ground's pressure and the athlete's pressure comes to act upon it)? Answer: No. Can you do a pole vault without a sound physiology? Answer: Probably not very high, but most likely not at all.

If one wants to emphasize one aspect over another as part of a pedagogy - as part of something that helps a student get a better over-all picture of the details they are trying to capture and/or the mistakes they are making - then maybe mentioning one thing at the implied cost of the other elements and/or maybe saying "this is the most important aspect" might have it's place. But I see it as just good upaya. Thus, since most folks have a problem being grounded, it is often wise to think of the ground as the most important aspect in generating power. But scientifically, it just can't be emphasized over the other elements because it's very output is co-dependent in nature to other outputs (a lot of the time in accordance with Newton's third law) - which means it cannot be "more than".

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 08:32 PM   #47
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
But even in this example you are sighting both the leg (i.e. straightening the ground-standing leg) AND the ground are mentioned.
But not the hip and the ground, as in the original question, which is the point I was trying to make. Just the dependence on the ground as a source of power should be obvious. Now when you add in the idea of kokyu (which I realize you don't see as an aspect of the ground), which derives its essence from the ground, the answer is unmistakeable. At least to the cognoscenti.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 08:38 PM   #48
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Mike, I assumed that the original poster was talking about a roundhouse/turning kick and not a side or front kick because he mentioned swinging a baseball bat. When you're doing a roundhouse kick, you do not push off of the ground to gain power. You don't rely on the friction between your feet and the ground for power. All you need is to be able to raise your leg and turn your hips- that is the kick right there.

If you can't raise your leg and turn while on ice before falling down I think you need to work on your kicking a little.
Easy way to check. Stand on some nice slick ice sometime, raise your leg until it is horizontal, and then swing your leg exactly horizontal into a buddy of yours. If you can even start the swing, you'll be lucky. You can get somewhat a *near* idea of the same thing by sitting on a smoothly-pivoting barstool (very smoothe), putting one arm out horizontally and then swinging it horizontally into a willing partner (keeping all other limbs still). I think you'll find that there's more to the standing leg in a side-kick than just a support from which you raise the kicking leg. It's still Newton's Third Law of Motion.

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 08:40 PM   #49
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Here is a gif of Yves Edwards:
Sure, but watch the leg on the ground straightening so that he derives his power. See what I said in post #41. I shouldn't answer all these questions... Chuck Gordon will accuse me of nitpicking even if you're bringing up all the objections.

Regards,

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-18-2005 at 08:43 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2005, 08:55 PM   #50
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,422
United_States
Offline
Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Leg or hip, it still makes no difference - the ground cannot generate more power than the leg (or the hip) generates (i.e. puts into the ground). Scientifically, no single element can be given primacy - not the leg, not the ground, not the hip.

Nitpicking is half the fun. :-) Keep going!

Cognoscenti? I get the joke, but still... That sounds a lot like that article over there at AJ - where "there is this thing that exists and we know it exists because it doesn't exist." Okaaaaaaaayyyyy? ;-) When we take that kind of logic for reason of course we got to answer things by saying, "Understanding is beyond understanding - but for me and for others that agree with me." Sure, it's obvious you do not fully mean that - but Yikes! If we are going to run there at the end, we might as well run there at the beginning - right? Such reasoning is all so arbitrary - which is the real (social) power of the initiate (and why esoteric groups have always tended to be anti-scientific). If we are going to do that, then, right from the start, let's just say that: "It's beyond you to understand, unless you agree with me, but even then I don't expect you to understand (though I continue to expect you to agree with me)." lol :-)

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)?? Upyu Training 87 10-17-2008 11:13 AM
Training the Body for Martial Movement Upyu Training 25 01-03-2007 12:24 PM
Discussion of Summer Camp 2006 on AJ Mike Sigman General 20 11-24-2006 09:04 PM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 10:50 PM
Spiritual power Jonathan General 46 01-31-2002 03:39 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:13 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate