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Old 08-04-2005, 01:13 PM   #1
Morpheus
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Where Does The Power come from?

A debate came up in regards to where a batter's power come from and it eventually turned into where does the power come from when one kicks.

My argument is that it comes from the ground and travels up the leg into the hip, but my co-worker feels it begins in the hip.

Can anyone shed some light on it.

Qasim

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"If the enemy thinks of the mountains, attack like the sea; and if he thinks of the sea, attack like the mountains. - Miyamoto Musashi - 1584 - 1645
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Old 08-04-2005, 01:17 PM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

how can you move your hips if you feet are not involved? Absolutely it must start from the ground. If you had zero gravity and you were floating....you couldn't swing your hips. The point of reference for them to move is from the ground.
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Old 08-04-2005, 01:19 PM   #3
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Power as you're talking about it basically comes from you fighting gravity by pushing against the ground. You can change the direction of that by using other muscles by rotating, etc.

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-04-2005, 02:55 PM   #4
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Somehow both I guess.
Everything what Kevin and Chuck say is correct. But nearly all budo sports teach that the power comes from your centre (hara). Kicks, punches, and aikido techniques.

The idea is the hara is your centre of gravity. Legs take the resitance of the ground to get the power towards the target, but if the movement does not start in your energetical centre, it will be a powerless nothing.

In a seminar I learned, the hara is the engine. everything else is important, but it is leverage and gearing, a kind of energy transformation.

Yes, of course, you need the earth to get a firm starting point. It could be a wall (in a spaceship not connected to earth). But on earth it is earth. So one is as true as the other.

But my experience in traing is, if you concentrate in trying to get the movement started in your hara, it is much easier to get the power to the destination, than if you try to figure out, how to get the right ankle to achieve most power from earth.

Well, if you train different it might be the opposite for you.

Cheers, Dirk
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Old 08-04-2005, 03:10 PM   #5
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

If the question is where does the movement start, the standard budo answer is from the hara. There's more to it than that though. The hara is not just the biological center of gravity. The movement really starts in your intent. Japanese budo teachers often talk about ki, ken, tai, ichi ... meaning your spirit/intent/heart, etc and the action, and body are all one. When you have done it properly so many times that the all of these things happen with no lag between any of them and you have no fear of failure, etc. then the waza is an actualization of your intent.

In doing this, the power (on this world...) comes from pushing away from the planet. (unless you have a rocket in your pocket or have ingested some particularly potent food...)

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-04-2005, 03:20 PM   #6
Adam Alexander
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I say a batter's power comes from the rotational force created by the hips against the ground...your body becomes a lever.

For the kicker...same thing, just different direction of power. The body's a lever. The power comes from the hips who's fulcrum is the ground.

...but I could be wrong.
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Old 08-04-2005, 03:43 PM   #7
Ketsan
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

People can move in the zero gravity and vacuume of space so I suggest that the power comes from the hips. Maewashi geri is, in it's simplest form, simply lifting the leg and rotating the hips, this can be performed both on the ground or indeed in mid air.
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Old 08-05-2005, 09:04 AM   #8
rob_liberti
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

This is basically the same question as: which end of the hose does the water come from? (especially if you shake the end it's coming out to give the water just a little more momentum). The majority of the power comes from the ground and is distributed by means of the hips. What do you expect would happen if we were both in zero gravity and you kicked me while we were floating? How "powerful" would that be compared to if were were both standing on solid ground with normal gravity?

Rob
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Old 08-05-2005, 09:17 AM   #9
ian
 
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

power requires the connection between the ground and the kicking foot. If you kick in zero gravity your body would move backwards as your foot kicks forwards (though slightly less since your leg is less mass than your body). Ideally you use the ground to project as much of your body weight into the person as possible - thus your 'centre' is the centre of gravity where the body weight can be felt to be projected. Obviously a flying kick utilises the ground to get the forward momentum.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-05-2005, 05:37 PM   #10
Roy
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Ultimately the sun
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Old 08-05-2005, 05:50 PM   #11
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Didn't Bruce Lee say it came from the hips, in Way of the Dragon?

Aikido people probably aren't the best people to ask about kick power.

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Old 08-05-2005, 08:22 PM   #12
Roy
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I agree with mark that power comes from the hips
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Old 08-06-2005, 03:30 PM   #13
Adam Alexander
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
Aikido people probably aren't the best people to ask about kick power.

Actually, the mechanics are all there. And, as I understand it, Ki society trains with kicks (Ukes).
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Old 08-07-2005, 01:24 AM   #14
crbateman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I personally have never been kicked by the ground. It generally just sits there. When someone kicks me, it is the power of their muscles and their energy that I feel. They are simply braced by, and reflected from, the foundation of the ground.

In Aikido we are taught to maintain this connection to the ground, so that moving us will be as impossible as moving the Earth itself.
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:27 AM   #15
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I agree with Roy..the sun.

Excuse me know while I go finish my sacrifice.
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Old 08-08-2005, 10:08 AM   #16
rob_liberti
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote:
I personally have never been kicked by the ground. It generally just sits there. When someone kicks me, it is the power of their muscles and their energy that I feel. They are simply braced by, and reflected from, the foundation of the ground.

In Aikido we are taught to maintain this connection to the ground, so that moving us will be as impossible as moving the Earth itself.
This is a good point. Have you ever been kicked by someone who attempts to avoid using friction for bracing as opposed to just staying squarely over their center and attempts to use gravity excursively for their stability? I understand these things are related, but changing your mindset results in quite a bit more striking power. I'm told that Korean master Hwang Kee was incredible at showing the difference.

So where does power come from, well, my opinion is that "power comes from" the bottom of your foot (assuming gravity), and continues through your body. For all intents and purposes, the bottom of your foot is close enough to the ground.

But I think the "sun" is probably the best answer.

Rob
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:08 AM   #17
Adam Alexander
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I look at it like a teeter-totter.

The power doesn't come from the axis point, it comes from the ballast (the other person).

In kicks, the ballast is the hips, the axis is the ground.
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:43 AM   #18
Roy
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I do recall being told a million times that one must be "rooted." So, this must mean being connected to the ground. I also think power comes from your heart, and commitment. Being relaxed and focus will also maximize power.
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Old 08-08-2005, 02:07 PM   #19
crbateman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Kicks (and punches) are, to a great degree, a function of mass and momentum. An attackers body cannot gain either of these once he has left the ground. The whiplike action of a good kick does compound the total force, but nothing extra comes in the mass and momentum. The strongest kicks are those that are braced against the ground. A well-trained attack gets the mass of the body in motion (momentum) toward the target, with a muscle explosion just prior to impact. This movement toward the target and muscle explosion are developed against the foundation of solid ground. Losing the ground is sort of like trying to hit a home run while retreating from the pitch. Only the guys on "the juice" have a prayer without the proper concert of mass, momentum and power.
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Old 08-08-2005, 03:53 PM   #20
Eric_Aiki
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?


It's all in the hips.... It's all in the hips...

Thats what my Sensei keeps telling me.

Eric
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:09 AM   #21
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Just a simple similar question:
At a car, where does the power/speed/acceleration come from?

Is it the driver (mind), gas pedal (intention), the engine (hips), the gearing (legs), the wheels (feet) or the street (earth)?

If you omit one of them, car would not move. Think about the rest by yourselves

Regards Dirk
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Old 08-17-2005, 02:35 PM   #22
Takuan
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

I believe that true power happens when the body reacts as "one". So I prefer not to think of different limbs or parts of my body when I need power. I think the ultimate goal is to create unity with head, spirit and limbs (center).
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Old 08-17-2005, 06:35 PM   #23
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

It comes from your hips. Sure, you have to pivot on one of your feet but that pivot is caused by your hips, not the foot itself. Of course it depends on the kick you're doing as well, some styles use a flick of the knee and then some rely on just the hips.
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Old 08-17-2005, 08:06 PM   #24
rob_liberti
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

The idea of where it "comes from", can be thought of more like how do you see the line of power, and where does it start? I think this is similar to the idea of: Does the wind blow the flag, or does the flag move the air around? It's more of a Yoda type thing (note I mean the cool Yoda from Empire Strikes Back, not the silly puppet flying and flipping around wasting all kinds of crazy energy while fighting someone. )

Rob
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Old 08-17-2005, 08:18 PM   #25
aikigirl10
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Power comes from the mind. Without the mind there would be no force to kick or swing a baseball bat or what have u . The ground and the hips and appendages are all just tools that the mind uses to accomplish whatever it sets out to do .

My theory (and some uncommon deep thinking (for me))
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