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Old 06-14-2005, 12:26 PM   #1
FeW PseudoSKIV
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Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

What is the difference with the bukiwaza of Chiba Sensei, and the bukiwaza of Saito Sensei?
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Old 06-14-2005, 12:53 PM   #2
Rod Yabut
 
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Chiba sensei frequented Iwama a lot so you can start your research from there.

Rod
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Old 06-14-2005, 04:53 PM   #3
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

I know (have heard) that early Chiba weapons was dependent upon what Saito was doing. It has been said that Chiba even made use of Saito's books on weapons during seminars, etc. I also know that when I first started, we were taught some of those Saito forms as well. However, today, I would say that the two systems are quite different now - if not completely different. These differences are not only visible in the actual techniques taught and used, but even in things as basic as how to hold the sword and how to cut with it. As a result, even universal elements, such as maai, are also quite different. As you can imagine, when the maai is understood differently, what one can and cannot do with the sword and/or the jo also becomes effected - making more major differences. Moreover, timing then is also understood differently, which in turns leads to more gross differences.

I think I am too bias, and not informed enough about the actual origins of both systems, to say much more than this. But you are in luck, both systems, as performed by each man, are on DVD/VHS - so you can also look at them for yourself and see what you see. I believe each federation headquarters makes the videos available (for sale).

dmv

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Old 06-14-2005, 05:20 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
However, today, I would say that the two systems are quite different now - if not completely different. These differences are not only visible in the actual techniques taught and used, but even in things as basic as how to hold the sword and how to cut with it. As a result, even universal elements, such as maai, are also quite different.
Yep. My first weapons training was in Chiba's lineage, and both bokken AND jo were handled very differently from the weapons work I've seen in the other aikido dojo I've trained in since then.
The jo tsuki, for instance, as I recall (and here my years ago and limited experience will yield happily to a current and more advanced student!) ends with the back end of the jo drawn up under the forward arm, sort of giving it, to me, a coiled feeling, rather than the down at the center other forms use.
I really loved the 8 step bokken kata and have tried to keep solo training with it.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-14-2005, 06:24 PM   #5
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Hi David, very nice explanation. Quick question for you, I know that USAF-WR has a weapons seminar at the end of the year, do you think I would be a fish out of water (being a non USAF-WR) if I attended it and have had only minimal exposure to Chiba sensei's weapons work?

Rod
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Old 06-14-2005, 06:36 PM   #6
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Hi Rod,

We are presently independent from the WR - as you can read on our web site - but that seminar was usually attended by people of all rank and experience. Also, for the most part, many classes are dedicated to one basic and/or one set or form - as a result, one has many hours to learn something new and/or to penetrate a given aspect more deeply. When I first started attending that seminar, there were times when I went in having no idea knowing what we were working on, but by the end of the camp I knew it quite well due to all the hours and help for partners who already knew it. In short, I would suggest that you feel free to look to such a camp to provide you with something new and/or to provide you with more depth - rather than seeing it as a place to practice what you already know and thus becoming hesitant in the face of what you have yet to learn. I say, go for it! It's a great camp - always. Do it you can - feel confident about going as you are, wherever you are in your training.

btw - we also have some video of some weapons work based on Chiba's teachings on our web site. I would tend to see them as quite different from Saito's - with this visual maybe others would see why and/or could see why. Any faults however our my own failure to penetrate Chiba's teaching more fully. I do not want to hold that up as an example of Chiba's weapons system. It's just an example to take a look at. If you want to see Chiba do some weapons - as I said, one can get the videos from his federation headquarters.

thanks,
david

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-14-2005, 07:07 PM   #7
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

If anyone would be willing to provide me a link to a bukiwaza dvd set of his, I would be more than greatfull. Thanks
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Old 06-14-2005, 08:02 PM   #8
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Nicholas,

If you google "Aikido Western Region Chiba" I'm sure you'll get his federation web site - from there you can follow the link to "videos" and find what you are looking for. If you need more help than that or if you have any more questions, please feel free to ask away - I will try to help as much as I can.

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-14-2005, 10:02 PM   #9
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Not only Chiba and Saito Styles are different. The Hitohiro Saito Sensei version is also unique.

The jo suburi kamae is more linear and feet are different. It is actually more powerful and has more hip in it. I tried against a tree the ski I mean. give it a go.
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Old 06-20-2005, 06:12 PM   #10
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

I hear Chiba weapons are more comprehensive and complete then the Saito system...I this true? I also hear that Chiba places more importance on learning weapons
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Old 06-20-2005, 06:19 PM   #11
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

David,
Thanks for the reply/advice. I think I will go to their weapons seminar this year. From your explanation, I have no reason not to!

Rod

Rod
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Old 06-20-2005, 10:38 PM   #12
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Well in Sydney. We train four times a week, one hour of weapons then after an hour of taijutsu per session. We leave a pair of weapons at the Dojo, and we have another apir at home for the tanren and suburi practice. After an hour of weapons strength, power, and unnecessary speed disappears due to tiredeness. The taijutsu just become more reliable on technique, timing, and angle. At gokyu we need to demonstrate Jo and ken Suburi for grading. The weapons class is compromised of a lot of partner practice usually the 31, kumitach, and kumijo. Hence Iwama aikido is very traditonal and weapons oriented. I guess it does not really matter wether it is Chiba or Saito it is still aikiken and aikijo. It is designed for aiki, unlike kenjutsu which is designed for the battlefield.
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Old 06-20-2005, 11:35 PM   #13
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Quote:
Cromwell Salvatera wrote:
It is designed for aiki, unlike kenjutsu which is designed for the battlefield.
Both ideas are trite and incorrect.

Most kenjutus schools are edo period constructs and as relevant to battle fields as Aikido. You might have a case if you said dueling but even that can be considered a stretch. Aiki - is originally a kenjutsu concept.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-21-2005, 12:42 AM   #14
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Chiba Sensei handles his bokken more as if it's really a shin ken (live blade) rather than a wooden sword with which to strike something. This isn't surprising since he is also an Iaido shihan under Mitsuzuka Sensei.
The Iwama method of cutting doesn't actually have much to do with actual cutting with a shin ken.

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Old 06-21-2005, 04:10 AM   #15
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The Iwama method of cutting doesn't actually have much to do with actual cutting with a shin ken.
Using a huge generalisation. and following on from Georges post...To me there seem to be two camps on weapons usage....1 camp focusses on using the weapons as they were originally intended.

The 2nd camp uses them simply as tools to develop aikido bases..breathing, posture, position, blending etc.

I think this extends to the Tai Jutsu work too...some train to perfect the technique itself...others train to perfect the bases which underpin the work.

I think this may be what Cromwell was saying.

In some cases the final forms will be like chalk and cheese...but for many the differences many be minor.

For the record I'm in the second camp.

Cheers

D
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Old 06-21-2005, 03:24 PM   #16
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

I would agree with George and Daren here. Also - I think it is important to note that Chiba's system IS aimed toward improving one's body art, one's kokyu-ryoku, and one's capacity at aiki, etc. In that sense, there is no reason why it can't be considered an aikiken or an aikijo, etc., but we nevertheless don't want to fall prey to suggesting that they are the same things (i.e. that saito and chiba are doing the same thing). As I said in my first post, there are some major and/or fundamental differences between the two systems (at least now there is).

dmv

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Old 06-21-2005, 10:40 PM   #17
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Both ideas are trite and incorrect.

Most kenjutus schools are edo period constructs and as relevant to battle fields as Aikido. You might have a case if you said dueling but even that can be considered a stretch. Aiki - is originally a kenjutsu concept.
I can surely see where your coming from Peter. Aikido came from jujutsu, jujutsu came from bujutsu. Aikido is based on the concept of the sword and jo. However Kenjutsu and Jojutsu is not aikido. Aikido has been modernised by Osensei from the battlefield concepts. One may have a slim chance to survive an empty handed multiple attacks in real life (God forbid) or in the dojo, but battle field style multiple attackers with weapons. Good luck mate!

Aikiken and aikijo is unique in its own way. Like Darren said it is used as base to improve ones aikido. If one uses for example kendo principles in aiki, the foot work is different already, hip is different, zanshin is different, blending is different. Hence, it is no longer aikido. I would like to see anyone try to do a koshinage using a kendo stance.

I am currently relearning some of Saito sensei's weapons. I have to learn Hitohiro Sensei's way. If there are some similarities with Saito and Chiba Senseis' weapons, well it is now definitely different and apart. Has anyone experienced Hitohiro sensei's way?
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Old 06-24-2005, 08:55 AM   #18
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Quote:
I hear Chiba weapons are more comprehensive and complete then the Saito system...I this true? I also hear that Chiba places more importance on learning weapons
You have to be joking, COMPLETE?

Its pretty simple chibs time in Iwama was very little about 2 years i think on and off, he has decided to study a tradional weapons school, which in return has complletely change his taijustu to suit.

Saito on the other hand was simply following what his teacher taught him, and as he said he never changed what he was taught , where as everyone else did,
so now chibas aikido reflects nothing that Osensie was doing, he's even taking out hanmi which completly changes your taijutsu movements.

As for complete, thats rediculous saitos is Aikido chibas is not.
saitos weapons are the founders chibas are not

As for the H-bomb having changed things they are so small peole the changes are nothing they are simply his way of doing what his father taught. His posture may not look like his father but as usual everyone see's what the chief was doing as an old man with major back/hip and knee problems. h is in his prime his posture is exactley that of the founders.
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Old 06-24-2005, 09:58 AM   #19
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Obviously, you have a "favorite" here -- which is a tad more than just doing what you do. That is fine. However, I do not think it is wise to define "complete" (or the relative descriptive of "comprehensive") as only repeating what Osensei did decades ago. Such a position leaves no room for personal development, personal insight, or even artistic evolution. Underneath, it even presumes that Osensei's weapons practice and curriculum was already in a state of completeness -- which would be a hard position to sell. Personally, in some ways, I think folks like Shioda, Nishio, Tomiki, Saito, and Chiba, etc., have done a lot to make Aikido way more complete than it ever was for Osensei. To do that, in many ways, they have had to move beyond the idea of only doing what Osensei was doing. Thus, the fact that someone is not doing exactly what Osensei did should not be considered proof positive that one is seeing a lack of development, a lack of insight, or a devolution of the art.

Perhaps we can just ask Mr. MacDougall to elaborate upon what he meant by "complete" and "comprehensive" -- that might bring more clarity to our discussion. At the least, it will stop these terms from being used polemically.

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-24-2005, 07:36 PM   #20
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

My apologies. I have heard from multiple sources that Chiba Sensei places more importance in weapons than Saito, and the kata from Chiba sensei's weapons kai is more reminscient of kata from Koryu, than saitos. Saitos is more like a tool (From what I have viewed) than a self defense system. Just my two cents.
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Old 06-24-2005, 09:25 PM   #21
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Thank you Mr. McDougall for replying. I imagine then, by your latest comment, we can take the word "complete" to mean "a system that is designed to and/or capable of standing alone and/or functioning alone." Seems like a fair understanding of the word "complete" and also an adequate understanding of Chiba's weapons system. "In my opinion," I should say.

Personally, in Chiba's system, I have always understood that one IS learning how to use these weapons and that in doing so one is learning more about how to move one's body and thus how to do Aikido. I think if one were to understand Chiba's system minus the first element (i.e. how to use these weapons), one would be missing a lot. This is not to say that some folks that have trained in his system do not hold this very view (i.e. that the weapons are just training tools) - I'm sure some do (at least it certainly looks like some do).

As for what is going on in Saito's system, without direct experience, I don't feel confident in commenting on precisely how such training is to aid one's Aikido skill. Perhaps Mr. Miller can chime in again and comment upon whether Saito's system is an attempt to learn how to wield the weapons (primarily) or whether one is looking at a movement training device (primarily).

From what I have seen, not done, much of the movements in Saito's system, for both the sword and the jo, do not seem to follow the position that one is actually trying to use these weapons as ends in themselves and/or as endeavors that are worthy in and of themselves. From the position of wielding these weapons, in light of what you see in nearly any other school of martial arts related to these weapons, Saito's system contains many movements that would have to be considered to fall somewhere between "unique" and "odd."

Mr. Miller, would you do us the favor of commenting upon how Saito's weapons system is meant to relate to both the weapons themselves and one's overall Aikido? Please/thanks.

dmv

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Old 06-25-2005, 06:54 AM   #22
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Comparing apples and oranges is most often useless and frustrating....

TT,

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Old 06-25-2005, 09:50 AM   #23
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

If we are going to look at how apples and oranges are alike, maybe. However, the whole point of gaining insight through contrast rests on the fact that the two things you are looking at ARE different. A good way of learning about the genus Citrus IS to look at the genus Malus. Sure, we have to be careful with our conclusions, but in my opinion we do not have to be so cautious that we cannot even begin such discussion.

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Old 06-25-2005, 11:22 PM   #24
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

David,

I've trained around the edges of Saito Sensei's buki waza for 12 years. I've just barely scratched the surface of the deeper foundation in the past 2-3 years. I wasn't able to penetrate much beyond the surface till I also began to internalize the 4-layered pedagogial system.

Go hang with one of the inner circle long enough to really grok the jo and ken suburi. Then spend long enough to have a clue about the cause and effect relationships in the partner practices. Then come back and we can start to have an intelligent conversation. Till then, we'd be wasting our breath.

TTFN,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-26-2005, 02:16 AM   #25
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Re: Chiba Buki vs Saito Buki

Greg,

I certainly made it clear that I was ignorant of such depth concerning Saito's system - from the very beginning. That's why folks like Mr. Miller and yourself are important to such a conversation as this one (assuming your desire is to converse and not merely to get others to stop conversing). For myself, in choosing not to reciprocate your polemics, I am not a believer of the position that you personally have to go and study Chiba's system for over a decade before you can comment on Saito's system, and thus participate in a discussion such as this one. I am still interested in hearing of your deeper understanding regarding such an elementary issue of how weapons work is supposed to relate to Aikido body art under Saito's paradigm. Or should I assume that you ARE expert (or a person who has scratched the surface of the deeper foundations) in both systems - and thus that you know that one is indeed an apple and the other is indeed an orange and that any conversation concerning the two is impossible? If that is indeed the case, we will have to agree to disagree. I do not feel that this is a topic that falls outside of human intelligence, reason, and fair and honest exchange at a discursive level. (We are merely talking about pedagogical matters after all.)

If you'd rather not speak up, who can, or should, make you - not I. But please let those that wish to exercise their right to speak and to participate in this discussion do so without from the get-go hinting that what they saying is "unintelligent." After all, it is because we do not know everything, because we do not claim to know everything, that we find any purpose in coming together and sharing what we know with others that know something different from ourselves. For me, the very reaons why you hint that such a conversation is worthless, and/or why you suggest that we must train exactly like each other before we can come to understand more than we currently do, are the very reasons why this forum and this discussion can and should take place. Like I said, I wish you would chime in and enlighten us concerning what we do not know in regards to how Saito's system is supposed to relate to Body Art pedagogically. However, if you insist on remaining silent because you will presume that I, we, cannot understand such great insight without a decade plus of training that is similar to yours - sadly, we will have to agree to disagree.

Hopefully we will be able to converse in another thread.

Many thanks,
dmv

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