Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-20-2005, 10:09 AM   #1
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

I feel that it is important for any Martial Artist to realistically analyze his or her own art's strengths and weaknesses to improve, refine and bring out the best of the martial art.

This is not intended to answer or start the question : " does aikido work. " but rather in the hope that aikidokas can analyze the strenghts and weaknesses in the aiki concepts to improve on self defense techniques. I hope that I did not offend anybody.

So I'll start the ball rolling:

Strength: Aiki concept of circular motion and footwork works if there is one attacker and you have your back against the wall. With proper ma ai ( distancing) and good timing an irimi or tenkan can get you out of the situation-of which you could either run away or execute a strong atemi or throw or whatever the situation calls for.

Also, irimi, tenkan and the constant encouragement to be on the move increases the odds of surviving a multiple attacker situation. The concept of the dynamics of movement allows you to move better through an opening in such a situation. (This does not neccessarily mean that we can cream all the attackers like sensei Segal on tv.) It just increases the odds of survival.

Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.

Hope that this doesn;t deviate to : "does it work or not?" and that I did not offend anybody. Also hope that this thread sparks a healthy discussion so we can improve. After all, geniuses in the martial arts world were born because they studied their art and improvised to improve time and time again. This is evident even in the Aikido circles where we have quite a number of styles each having its different emphasis be it Ki development, technique development or competition.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 12:56 PM   #2
rogueenergy
Dojo: Aikido of Lincoln
Location: Lincoln, NE
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 32
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Interesting post. I'll have to digest it again and again. I have the advantage of being part of a dojo that is not directly affiliated with any particular style. I've watched the yudansha of my dojo go off to a large variety of seminars and every time they come back they share the knowledge they gained. Which I feel is on the same vein of what you are getting at. Why should we be limited to this or that when it is all relevant.

I've recently been trying to see the art in Aikido. It has been instilled in me that Aikido is like the universe. As such, I've been trying to see the similarities between the two. If Aikido is like the universe then wouldn't all things be Aikido?

While "wearing the shoes of the beginner", I have found it difficult to see the art and the universe in Aikido. I've been too focused on where my various body parts go to execute the technique. But, now that I have become determined to see the art I'm getting glimpses. As a martial art, and us as martial artists is it not our duty to find things that haven't been done to improve or evolve Aikido?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 01:33 PM   #3
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

most aikido dojos will focus on the underlying principles of dyanmic movement and the relationship of space, time, distance, and the relationship of on body against one or several. The exercises, kata, and techniques are designed to help you discover these principles.

The principles are essentially universal in nature. Therefore, what you do in aikido, if done correctly would apply to any martial art.

I see the same things in BJJ that I see in aikido when applied correctly. It may not look like aikido since many of the exercises, kata, techniques start from a slightly different set of conditions, but in theory and correct applicaiton...they would be the same.

I would say..."yes" Aikido is universal. Does not mean that everything else would mirror aikido though since it is possible to appy things in the converse incorrectly.

However even when applied incorrectly, say using force or strength, eventually physics will yield and things will come back to equilibrum and the principles of dynamic movement would once again apply, therefore, even that action would be considered "aikido".

But, most would say it was not aikido. Why?

Because there is more to aikido and the correct application of it than pure physics or technique.

There is the attitude, compassion, and action/reaction in which it is applied.

So, even though we have physical principles...you must also have the spiritual, mental, and philosophical elements that accompany the art in order to have aikido.

Resolving conflict with the minimal amount of force, seeking to embrace, blend, and harmonize...to understand and have compassion.

Well enough of my ramblings!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 01:50 PM   #4
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.


Okay...I believe that tis statement is wrong for a number of reasons. First, the techniques were origionally desigened to be used on fully trained samurai (going back to Daito). Please tell my why one would attempt to punch someone wielding a sword at you wearing full armor? The purpose of grabbing was to get inside the ma ai on the sword. The principle still applies (timing, distance, and most importantly feel/intuition) but there is no reason that a) and attack should be devalued since it is a grab and b) because an attacker made it inside your ma ai does not in any way you are defenseless.

Aiki means blending of energies, more specifically positive and negative energies to bring about neutralization (-1+1=0) As such if you are correctly using aiki and blending the any time someone projects any kind of attack at you you should become kuzushi. One physical contact is made between two people each is at the mercy of the other's center through kuzushi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 02:54 PM   #5
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 289
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
IWeakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. .
Regardless of whether or not uke is wearing armour, my impression has always been that one should never pull.
Extend into uke and then roll around their resistance to take them off balance.

So I guess I would say weakness: ikkyo when being attempted on someone much taller than oneself (though in reality, I'd choose a different technique unles humongo-uke's balance was coincidentally just right for this one).

-LK
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 03:06 PM   #6
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 123
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
kata dori ikkyo. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
That opening has to be filled with atemi. In my experience, with a resisting partner I cannot get kata dori ikkyo with out uke having to react to atemi. So when you talk about a 'shomen tski' being sufficient, I think you're right. If they don't react and avoid the punch, you don't really need ikkyo do ya?

OTOH, I've seen folks omit the pull back (or whatever you want to call it) altogether and just enter and meet the grab with an advancing shoulder. Usually ends in nikyo though...

Quote:
DustinAcuff wrote:
Please tell my why one would attempt to punch someone wielding a sword at you wearing full armor?
Maybe you lost your sword? The way I've learned, the atemi (read: punch uke in the face) is critical to the technique working.
Off to find some armor wearing uke!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 03:33 PM   #7
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

I hate to say it, but I think atemi is a rather bad thing to rely on to preform your techniques. IMHO if you can only remove balance through atemi then you don't know what you are doing and need to go back to basics. Yes, atemi are valuable tools, a well placed strike can lead to uke taking his own balance, but there is no technique I've ever seen that can only be done with atemi. In my school we don't even learn atemi until 2-3 years after we start. Any time someone touches you or you touch them, as an Aikidoka you have complete control of their center. Case in point: an advanced (Daito Ryu) techniqu has nage sitting seiza with uke grabbing nage's ear like he is going to rip it off, then nage rolls his head and uke flys across the room. If you can throw someone with your earlobe then you darn sure can do ikkyo without atemi. Also, I have had ikkyo done on me a numbe of times at full speed and the last thing I remember after thowing that punch is being on the ground with my arm close to its breaking point. There is not an opening there unless you (nage) put it there.

I won't deny atemi have value. I also won't deny that I have heard that at the Aiki Expo in LA the senior 8th dans in Daito beat the crap out of some uke's with atemi before finishing the technique. But if you cannot do a technique to someone giving active resistance without using atemi then you might want to rethink what you are doing. Atemi create openings where there are none and finish uke when he cannot be reasoned with, they do not make the technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 04:41 PM   #8
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,923
Spain
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

We can have different point of views about atemi; for me, atemi is essential to aikido (is what makes the difference with judo: removing balance without atemi).

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Case in point: an advanced (Daito Ryu) techniqu has nage sitting seiza with uke grabbing nage's ear like he is going to rip it off, then nage rolls his head and uke flys across the room.
I want to take ukemi for that.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 08:18 PM   #9
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.
I think you're confusing "form" with "functional" use (or vice versa).

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 10:07 PM   #10
Amassus
 
Amassus's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Musubi Ryu/ Yoshin Wadokan
Location: Hamilton
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 305
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

I'm going to go back to the original question.

I agree with the strengths of Aikido that have already mentioned.

Weakness: if taken too far, the atmosphere in the club can become so relaxed that the uke's do not attack effectively anymore. Honest attacks in Aikido are often too little and far between.

This is not a problem of the art itself I guess, but of the participants.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 12:43 AM   #11
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I think you're confusing "form" with "functional" use (or vice versa).
Hi Ignatius, I do not understand form from functional. Could you elaborate ? Thanks .
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 12:47 AM   #12
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.


Okay...I believe that tis statement is wrong for a number of reasons. First, the techniques were origionally desigened to be used on fully trained samurai (going back to Daito). Please tell my why one would attempt to punch someone wielding a sword at you wearing full armor? The purpose of grabbing was to get inside the ma ai on the sword. The principle still applies (timing, distance, and most importantly feel/intuition) but there is no reason that a) and attack should be devalued since it is a grab and b) because an attacker made it inside your ma ai does not in any way you are defenseless.

Aiki means blending of energies, more specifically positive and negative energies to bring about neutralization (-1+1=0) As such if you are correctly using aiki and blending the any time someone projects any kind of attack at you you should become kuzushi. One physical contact is made between two people each is at the mercy of the other's center through kuzushi.
I never devalued the attack. But what I am questioning is the response to the attack, in this case kata dori ikkyo. As mentioned earlier, just pulling back to try to throw the attacker off balance wastes too much time and leaves you vulnerable; a simple atemi
discourages the attacker and addresses the need for self defense in such a situation. This is what I mean as the weakness in kata dori ikkyo. It is the technique I want to discuss and how we as Aikidokas can improve the martial side of Aikido.

Your post confirms the discussion: we no longer live in the age of armour or swords. We need to improvise to improve our techniques to prepare this generation for the streets. I'm not suggesting aggression, I am suggesting an improved ( technical) Aikido. To say that Aikido works in all situations may be gross arrogance. But to say that it doesn't work at all is gross ignorance. We need to realistically analyze ourselves technically to improve. And thus, started this thread started.

Last edited by Jiawei : 07-21-2005 at 12:53 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 12:59 AM   #13
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dean Suter wrote:
I'm going to go back to the original question.

I agree with the strengths of Aikido that have already mentioned.

Weakness: if taken too far, the atmosphere in the club can become so relaxed that the uke's do not attack effectively anymore. Honest attacks in Aikido are often too little and far between.

This is not a problem of the art itself I guess, but of the participants.
I agree. And thus the two fold benefit of practicing Atemi : 1) We can hone ourselves technically. Once again I am not suggesting violence or sparring but a spirited atemi practice. (But who can tell wether sparring will be included in Aikido in the future when after all, competitive tomiki Aikido was developed)

2) Some situations demand the use of atemi. It can be more effective than doing the throws or locks. Since it was included by O Sensei, why not use it ? Maximize the Aikido we practice. Shouldn't shortchange ourselves from better self defense.

I am open to any corrrection.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:06 AM   #14
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Nick Hennecke wrote:
Interesting post. I'll have to digest it again and again. I have the advantage of being part of a dojo that is not directly affiliated with any particular style. I've watched the yudansha of my dojo go off to a large variety of seminars and every time they come back they share the knowledge they gained. Which I feel is on the same vein of what you are getting at. Why should we be limited to this or that when it is all relevant.

I've recently been trying to see the art in Aikido. It has been instilled in me that Aikido is like the universe. As such, I've been trying to see the similarities between the two. If Aikido is like the universe then wouldn't all things be Aikido?

While "wearing the shoes of the beginner", I have found it difficult to see the art and the universe in Aikido. I've been too focused on where my various body parts go to execute the technique. But, now that I have become determined to see the art I'm getting glimpses. As a martial art, and us as martial artists is it not our duty to find things that haven't been done to improve or evolve Aikido?
Agreed. Just an opinion: It is the individual duty to improve our technical abilities. Then we wouldn't be so irked by the question : Does Aikido work ? Instead, find out what of Aikido works and what doesen't in a particular scenario . Then improve on the areas that you feel are weak. I mean, that's how the Martial Arts were born right ? They had to figure out possible attacks and possible appropriate responses based on a certain philosophy. In the case of Aikido, its compassion and the choice of the amount of damage that is needed in a situation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:28 AM   #15
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Hi Ignatius, I do not understand form from functional. Could you elaborate ? Thanks .
"Form" is a stylized expression of "how you do" technique. i.e. it defines a particular "shape" of the technique. "Function" is the "application" of the "form", and rarely vaguely resembles the "form".

So when you say:
Quote:
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
It tells me one thing (well, actually 2): that your "entry" and timing is off....

Quote:
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.
Yes, of course that works. But, IMHO, it interrupts the flow. Done properly with proper kokyu extension, the elbow lock should already come on before uke has grabbed and uke should end up horizontal to floor and do a face plant. Nice technique... hard to take ukemi for.

FWIW,

Ignatius

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:58 AM   #16
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Smile Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
"Form" is a stylized expression of "how you do" technique. i.e. it defines a particular "shape" of the technique. "Function" is the "application" of the "form", and rarely vaguely resembles the "form".

So when you say:


It tells me one thing (well, actually 2): that your "entry" and timing is off....



Yes, of course that works. But, IMHO, it interrupts the flow. Done properly with proper kokyu extension, the elbow lock should already come on before uke has grabbed and uke should end up horizontal to floor and do a face plant. Nice technique... hard to take ukemi for.

FWIW,

Ignatius
Elbow lock come on before the Uke has grabbed means perform pull back before he grabs me? I lead him to lose his balance ?

I see now: The form is like kata -when applied in a situation its the principal that counts so the form may teach you something principally and can be applied under certain circumstances. Thank you for the reply, my pleasure chatting with you.

Last edited by Jiawei : 07-21-2005 at 02:03 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 04:22 AM   #17
Jorx
Dojo: Pärnu Aikidoclub Singitai
Location: Pärnu, Estonia
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 322
Estonia
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Well the strength is that these concepts in theory are very foolproof.
Also I find this peaceful ideology to be a strength and via that Aikido may become a strong tool for self-development for some ppl.

Weakness: the concepts are practiced in a dead manner against unrealistic opposition which imho is flawed from the martial point of view from the very beginning - concept of uke and nage. It all dervies somehow from the very same philosophy I view as a strength of aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 04:29 AM   #18
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Aikido is full of paradoxes.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 04:49 AM   #19
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Elbow lock come on before the Uke has grabbed means perform pull back before he grabs me? I lead him to lose his balance ?
On page 200 of Shioda's Total Aikido - The Master Course, Shioda can be seen doing kata tori ikkyo without atemi, from the grab, where uke already has a firm grip.

Quote:
I see now: The form is like kata -when applied in a situation its the principal that counts so the form may teach you something principally and can be applied under certain circumstances.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 12:55 PM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Sure techniques can be peformed without atemi. However, as someone stated above...without atemi, or the threat of atemi...you essentially end up with judo strategies...nothing wrong with that....but fight strategies become different and you must be careful not to form a game plan based around no strikes.

Basically I find that aikido techniques work without strikes because aikidoka get used to working in their own paradigm of training and "do things" "aiki" like that allow them to work.

Go ahead and grab a decent judo guy, jiujitsu practioner...or even a novice in martial arts that does not play the aikido game...and you will find that things are difficult to perform on them. However, add in atemi/threat of it...and things change dramatically!

I think this is why many in aikido get a complex about aikido not working for real..they learn things...take them on the street...then find out that they are missing some key points, and the novice uke smirks...discredits what you are doing...and moves on!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 01:13 PM   #21
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.

Where do you pull in aikido? I assume that you already let uke get ahold of you, in which case you trap his arm then tenkan to let his center follow yours, pulling means whoever has the most mass and muscle wins.

I think some of the problem is you are trying to place the weaknesses of aikido on a single technique. If ikkyo don't work then go to shiho nage or sankyo. The most important thing to develop is "feel" and being able to sense the slightest resistance to your technique. If you go into the resistance then you cannot properly do your technique but if you go in the same direction he is resisting then he cannot resist.

Try this. Sit seiza with a friend behind you in seiza grabbing your arm across your chest with both hands. Try to extend your arm with muscle. You probably cant do it unless you are much larger than him but it will still take alot of effort. Now do the same thing again but when he starts pulling back his opposite arm should be pulling you a bit off to the side. Quickly straighten your arm in the same direction he is pulling and at full extention point in whatever direction you want him to go, generally to the same side as your arm is on. So if he is grabbing your left arm, extend out to the right then make an arc back to the left.

Out of curioscity why are uke and nage flawed? You have someone who is attacking and someone who is being attacked. Seems pretty accurate to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 08:00 AM   #22
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.

Where do you pull in aikido? I assume that you already let uke get ahold of you, in which case you trap his arm then tenkan to let his center follow yours, pulling means whoever has the most mass and muscle wins.

I think some of the problem is you are trying to place the weaknesses of aikido on a single technique. If ikkyo don't work then go to shiho nage or sankyo. The most important thing to develop is "feel" and being able to sense the slightest resistance to your technique. If you go into the resistance then you cannot properly do your technique but if you go in the same direction he is resisting then he cannot resist.

Try this. Sit seiza with a friend behind you in seiza grabbing your arm across your chest with both hands. Try to extend your arm with muscle. You probably cant do it unless you are much larger than him but it will still take alot of effort. Now do the same thing again but when he starts pulling back his opposite arm should be pulling you a bit off to the side. Quickly straighten your arm in the same direction he is pulling and at full extention point in whatever direction you want him to go, generally to the same side as your arm is on. So if he is grabbing your left arm, extend out to the right then make an arc back to the left.

Out of curioscity why are uke and nage flawed? You have someone who is attacking and someone who is being attacked. Seems pretty accurate to me.
Dustin, no I am not emphasizing or placing technical weaknesses based on one technique. I am using that as 1 example of a technical weakness. As mentioned by Ignatius, I was probably not considering the functional aspect of that "kata". And once again, I am trying to spark discussion on technical strengths and weakness of Aikido in the hope of improving.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 08:22 AM   #23
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Dustin, no I am not emphasizing or placing technical weaknesses based on one technique. I am using that as 1 example of a technical weakness. As mentioned by Ignatius, I was probably not considering the functional aspect of that "kata". And once again, I am trying to spark discussion on technical strengths and weakness of Aikido in the hope of improving.
Hi Jiawei,
I understand your point, but your example is still only one technique and probably in a basic version. In most aiki-dojo you learn long type techniques in order to get the feeling and start to execute the moves instinctively. Some sensei stick to rather long forms, either because they do not know other or because they want to focus on the DO in aikido and see fighting skills as a (potential) add-on, or one of a hundred other reasons.
I have seen ikkyo against tsuki that looked more like those narrow circular techniques of fencing. Only instead of the final strike (atemi) nage turned and led uke's attacking arm in a spiral down. Well most aikidoka might have preferred a similar iriminage. But whatever technique you will take, you can improve it dramatically to fill those holes, if your timing gets (nearly) perfect and if you find someone to practice on these items.

If it is not possible at your dojo, you might visit others from time to time.

But there are very good reason, why many dojo do not go for that before sufficient experience (somtimes 3rd Dan).

Regards Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 12:15 PM   #24
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

If you want to understand the stregnths and weaknesses best on the technical side of the art then you are just fine on the internet.

But my advice is that if you want to expand and broaden your Aikido in terms of effectiveness then I would very much suggest that you go to a few local Aikido schools that emphasize reality based training AND have someone who has been there and done that, someone who has had to use his/her skills in real life for a prolonged period of time. Most people don't think outside the box they are trained in, so to get the best quality of training you need the highest trained lifelong martial artis with EXPERIENCE.

Please forgive me if I have sounded a little condecending, but I have seen a child (about 4'8" maybe 85 lbs and only 11 years old) preform that technique reliably on most of the people in our dojo smoothly enough that most of the adult males (around 200-230 lbs and 6' give or take 3 inches) like they were nothing without any gaps that needed atemi. I am just honestly perplexed about that statement.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2005, 08:33 AM   #25
Jiawei
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 52
Singapore
Offline
Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
Hi Jiawei,
I understand your point, but your example is still only one technique and probably in a basic version. In most aiki-dojo you learn long type techniques in order to get the feeling and start to execute the moves instinctively. Some sensei stick to rather long forms, either because they do not know other or because they want to focus on the DO in aikido and see fighting skills as a (potential) add-on, or one of a hundred other reasons.
I have seen ikkyo against tsuki that looked more like those narrow circular techniques of fencing. Only instead of the final strike (atemi) nage turned and led uke's attacking arm in a spiral down. Well most aikidoka might have preferred a similar iriminage. But whatever technique you will take, you can improve it dramatically to fill those holes, if your timing gets (nearly) perfect and if you find someone to practice on these items.

If it is not possible at your dojo, you might visit others from time to time.

But there are very good reason, why many dojo do not go for that before sufficient experience (somtimes 3rd Dan).

Regards Dirk
Thank you for the reply. Perhaps like what Dustin suggested, I do need more experienced Aikidokas to do real life simulations with me to improve on my techniques. I suppose they would be more than happy to help out.

So , as a sideline, is JO training close to Shinto Ryu Muso ? Well, I'm kind of thiking of joining this club and am kind of fascinated with the art
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 02:35 PM
Culture of Martial Mediocrity? L. Camejo Training 160 02-03-2006 02:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:22 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate