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Old 07-18-2005, 06:13 AM   #1
makuchg
 
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Question Homicide or Suicide????

Has anyone noticed a shift in verbage used to describe people blowing themselves up for a cause? As far back as I can remember the term was always "suicide bomber." Recently, with American's falling victim more and more to these attacks the media has changed the name to "homicide bombers."

I'm curious people's thoughts on this change.

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
Spring Hill, FL
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Old 07-18-2005, 07:31 AM   #2
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

It is the latest new speak. I tend to pretty much agree with the Volokh conspirators:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2...tml#1121192168
http://volokh.com/2002_11_17_volokh_....html#85705142

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:11 AM   #3
James Davis
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
Has anyone noticed a shift in verbage used to describe people blowing themselves up for a cause? As far back as I can remember the term was always "suicide bomber." Recently, with American's falling victim more and more to these attacks the media has changed the name to "homicide bombers."

I'm curious people's thoughts on this change.
I can't speak for the reporters about their reasons for changing the way they write about these bombers, but my personal opinion is that we should define them based on their intentions. If someone wants to strap an explosive device to their chest and walk out into a desert to detonate it, then I'd call them a suicide bomber. If they walk into a crowded market place...
If a suicide bomber wants to make a statement, they can walk into a government building and blow themselves (and the building) sky high after warning other human beings to leave. Setting out to kill other people is homicide, reagardless of the manner in which it's done.
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:29 AM   #4
makuchg
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

See that's just it James, is he really a suicide bomber if he just want to kill himself? Is someone who shoots themselves a suicide shooter? No, they just committed suicide. Is someone who shoots others called a homide shooter? We are being redundant for dramatics, IMO.

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:56 AM   #5
mj
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Hmmm...so what about the first suicide bomber?

Was he also a murder bomber?

Judges 16: 28-30

Quote:
Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." 29 Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, 30 Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.
/ducks

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Old 07-18-2005, 04:43 PM   #6
James Davis
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Gregory Makuch wrote:
See that's just it James, is he really a suicide bomber if he just want to kill himself? Is someone who shoots themselves a suicide shooter? No, they just committed suicide. Is someone who shoots others called a homide shooter? We are being redundant for dramatics, IMO.
In some instances, I think you're right. "If it bleeds, it leads; if it burns, it earns." Newspapers want to put something really disturbing on the front page to sell the paper.
I still say that whether you pick up a knife or a stick of dynamite to off yourself speaks volumes about your intent.

The comedian Chris Rock once said after the Columbine tragedy:

(I'm paraphrasing)
"Everybody's askin' what movies they watched and what music they listened to to make them that way. Everybody's looking for someone to blame. What ever happened to just plain crazy?"
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Old 07-18-2005, 07:39 PM   #7
makuchg
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

James, Well said.

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
Spring Hill, FL
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:50 PM   #8
Adam Alexander
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Agreed: It's new-speak. I swear, I don't think hardly anyone else in this world read 1984. Nor do I think they know what a DEFINITION is.

So, WTF? What do you call the terrorist who bombs something without killing him/herself? What, they're not a "homicide-bomber?" It's the differentiation "suicide" that conveys the concept. It's totally stupid to change it.

Warms my heart to know that everyone's vote counts...even the people who'll buy into this.
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:30 PM   #9
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
So, WTF? What do you call the terrorist who bombs something without killing him/herself? ...
Fighter Pilot?

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Old 07-19-2005, 08:53 PM   #10
Thomas Ambrose
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

If I recall, I think it was just Fox News that started this trend, referring to attacks in Israel shortly after 9/11. My timing could be off. At any rate, suicide bomber or homicide bomber? Both really.

Although personally I think there should be a distinction not between whethor or not the bomber killed himself/herself in the process, but whom they targeted. Did they blow up a bus full or children or other innocents, or did they attack valid military targets? Innocent Civilians: homicide. Military target: war, not just cold-blood murder.
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Old 07-20-2005, 05:31 AM   #11
makuchg
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Target is really not a fair distinction because one man's innocent civilian is anothers military target. In WWII we carpet bombed entire cities, we considered it a military target. Today if we did that we would be considered as targeting civilians. I really depends on the bombers ethics. What we considered acceptable 50 years ago is not so. To us they may be targeting civilians, but to them they are military targets designed to weaken the will to fight and weaken the financial structure by keeping people from shopping or going to restaraunts. Not really sure what the terrorists are thinking but can you see my point?

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
Spring Hill, FL
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Old 08-08-2005, 08:51 PM   #12
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

As someone who has seen close up the results of a SVBIED (suicide vehicle borne improvised explosive device) <-military acronym for ya, I know that in Iraq, we just called what was left of the individuals a crude name that described the process of fornication (can I say that here?). Fortunately(?), the guys who targeted us were amateurs and mostly only managed to spew themselves all over. I guess that is why we officially went with the suicide part. Suicide or Homicide, it's all bad ju-ju.
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Old 08-09-2005, 11:02 AM   #13
Anat Amitay
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Actually, we call them "terrorist bombers".
As for seeing a target as an enemy or a military target- as long as the intention is of killing children- sorry, there is no excuse to call them "soldiers of the future"- it's just simply murder, nothing else.
Not that I agree with the killing of anyone, but just my comment on the written above.
Anat
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Old 08-09-2005, 11:09 PM   #14
Neil Mick
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Anat Eliraz (Amitay) wrote:
Actually, we call them "terrorist bombers".
As for seeing a target as an enemy or a military target- as long as the intention is of killing children- sorry, there is no excuse to call them "soldiers of the future"- it's just simply murder, nothing else.

Anat
Yeah, I'm with Anat, on this one. Children as targets is murder, plain and simple.
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Old 08-10-2005, 02:28 AM   #15
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
Fighter Pilot?
Don't you mean bomber pilot.

Jeez



Why do people insist on calling the armed forces terrorists? They're just doing a job. Got a problem, take it up with the government.

Last edited by Tim Gerrard : 08-10-2005 at 02:30 AM.

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 08-10-2005, 02:48 AM   #16
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Yeah, I'm with Anat, on this one. Children as targets is murder, plain and simple.
Agreed, using them as soldiers, too!

Dirk
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:30 PM   #17
Adam Alexander
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Tim Gerrard wrote:
1)Why do people insist on calling the armed forces terrorists? 2) They're just doing a job. 3)Got a problem, take it up with the government.
1)I didn't notice anyone doing that. However, gunning down a police chief and his company in a drive-by shooting sounds a lot like a terrorist act. Seems like the acts are what makes the terrorists. But, I don't know.
2)They made the decision to take that job--same as if you chose to be a mugger...you're "only doing your job." I've always viewed that excuse as a cop-out...The Nazis were doing their jobs too.
3)Governments action can only expand to the point to which people will act for it. If the terrorist...er, I mean, soldier, didn't act for the government, it'd be crippled. So, we take it up with the government directly and those who believe that "just following orders" is more important than innocent people dying.
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:47 PM   #18
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
1)I didn't notice anyone doing that. However, gunning down a police chief and his company in a drive-by shooting sounds a lot like a terrorist act. Seems like the acts are what makes the terrorists. But, I don't know.
2)They made the decision to take that job--same as if you chose to be a mugger...you're "only doing your job." I've always viewed that excuse as a cop-out...The Nazis were doing their jobs too.
3)Governments action can only expand to the point to which people will act for it. If the terrorist...er, I mean, soldier, didn't act for the government, it'd be crippled. So, we take it up with the government directly and those who believe that "just following orders" is more important than innocent people dying.
"Logic works. Your logic doesn't. Don't confuse the two." - 'Hiroshi' Hogan, Aikikai.
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Old 08-10-2005, 03:57 PM   #19
Huker
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Here's twenty bucks, can you take that package over there for me? Don't look inside, I'll be keeping an eye on ya!!
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:40 PM   #20
Adam Alexander
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
"Logic works. Your logic doesn't. Don't confuse the two." - 'Hiroshi' Hogan, Aikikai.
Yeah, "individual responsibility" is the underpinning premiss of most of my stuff...I guess that's fallable to some.

Fallable like the idea of acting moral...hmmm, what's going on with Bush now anyway?
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:21 PM   #21
Hogan
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Yeah, "individual responsibility" is the underpinning premiss of most of my stuff...I guess that's fallable to some.

Fallable like the idea of acting moral...hmmm, what's going on with Bush now anyway?

Hmmmm, maybe you should be upset in your own back yard of Detroit, first....

http://www.wndu.com/news/032003/news_19147.php

Hey, I have been working on some new tourism slogans for Detroit (well, not me really); tell me what you think:

* Statistically speaking, you probably won't get shot.
* Cheaper than Disney!
* Smokey the Bear says urban fires are A-OK!
* Our hospitals treat more bullet wounds before 5 AM than most hospitals do all day.
* They're not rioting, they're just making s'mores!
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:07 PM   #22
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

[quote=Jean de Rochefort]Yeah, "individual responsibility" is the underpinning premiss of most of my stuff...I guess that's fallable to some.
[quote]

Maybe there are some of us who believe that going to Iraq was the right thing to do?

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:32 PM   #23
Neil Mick
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Tim Gerrard wrote:
Maybe there are some of us who believe that going to Iraq was the right thing to do?
Maybe there are some of you who ignore the costs, the legal and moral breaches, and the lack of any tangible result in the defense of your belief, that it was the "right thing to do?"
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:08 PM   #24
Neil Mick
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

*looks around, scratching head* Democrats? Huh?

Where?
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:09 PM   #25
Hogan
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
*looks around, scratching head* Democrats? Huh?

Where?
I can't get that damn image to post !!!! How can you make it come up on screen !?
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