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Old 08-08-2005, 02:29 PM   #201
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Well good luck with that. Training that is level-appropriate in terms of "resistance" is "live" in my book. The idea is that you stop the person if you can, but never 100% stop them so they can work through the problems - without engaging their normal strength (or if you are far superior to them, let them go for it until they exhaust their muscles a bit and have to find something else to continue) Eventually they figure out how to get pasty those problems and you turn up your resistance.

As I see it, ukes tend to either under or over resist and nages tend to either learn how to dance or how to over compensate with their muscles - which is why it is difficult to learn from a book.

Rob
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Old 08-08-2005, 02:54 PM   #202
aikido funky monkey
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

you right. In my class their is someone who shall remain nameless who when uke always gives one hundred percent in preventing me from doing the throw and I have talked to sensei about it but this person still does it even its the first time iv e done that technique
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Old 08-08-2005, 03:12 PM   #203
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

You should: Avoid this person for now while you fanatically work out like a mad man even before and after every class developing your ability until the day comes when you are finally ready to mop the floor with this uke. Or you can just ask the person to help you after class themselves.

Rob
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Old 08-08-2005, 03:13 PM   #204
DustinAcuff
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Make better kuzushi and let him practice his ukemi. You can do any throw on a resistant opponent if you know how to take balance. If all else fails do a tenchi nage by his eye sockets just to prove to him that his resistance is useless.

Everyone, good points about dead training. Tradition should be honored to an extent, but I have heard that "tradition is the living rememberance of the dead while traditionalism is the dead rememberance in the living". Meaning the past should be honored but change should happen to. As to kata, I have not done any in years. In my current dojo kata is a four letter word, so all of our practice is live and with a partner. The result is alot more free form and a better understanding of body mechanics.

Whoa..just realized the implications of tenchi nage by the eye socket if you don't know how to do it safely for him. Here's a substitute, put your thumb long ways between his upper lip and nose and cut up then down while moving center foward. He should drop like a rock.

Last edited by DustinAcuff : 08-08-2005 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 08-08-2005, 03:20 PM   #205
Keith R Lee
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Well, if that's the case, I don't think the person who supports that ideology has a real clear grasp.

But, that's just me.
That's fine. You'll have deductive ideas about what would happen in a physical conflict and hypothesis of what might occur.

People who engage in a "live" training manner will have empirical experience to deal with the situation.

I'd rather have real experience than just hypothesis of what might happen. With having trained in a 100% resistence environment I'll know, not have theories, not have gameplans, not have hypothesis, I'll know what techniques, strategies, and movements of mine work becuase I've already engaged in training with a fully resistent partner. Not only one who was resistant, but one who was trying to submit me as well.

I much prefer real experience to hypothetically creating situations.

That's just my preference.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-08-2005, 03:41 PM   #206
aikigirl10
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
"Live" training is generally considered to be two people enganging in a fully resistant manner. Meaning a grappling match, boxing, kickboxing, MMA etc.

Only in an environment in which both parties are competing and attempting to win over the other person can techniques and theories be proven. Techniques that are never "put to the question" so to speak remain hypothetical only because they have been put to use in a setting where they are tested.

It's the difference between empirical knowledge and deductive knowledge. I think many of us have seen or been a part of Aikido dojos that are based purely on deductive knowledge.
I completely agree with you.
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Old 09-18-2005, 06:48 PM   #207
Lee Mulgrew
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

The fact is that Aikido does not work in it's 'dojo' form, I mean when will anybody ever attack you shomen uchi style? And why do you think atemi is so important? If you get into a fight it is going to get messy, non Akido people do not respond to techniques like aikidoka do. Aikido helps you to move out of harms way and manipulate your attacker so that you will recieve as little injury as possible (but chances are you will get a thump in the face!). It's not perfect, and none of the techniques are without fault, but that's not what it's about really is it?

Last edited by Lee Mulgrew : 09-18-2005 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 09-19-2005, 12:56 AM   #208
dyffcult
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

If I remember correctly, this thread started as the result of someone questioning what dojo's and the dojo's sensei promised as a result of training....

My sensei didn't promise me immediate street fighting abilities. In fact, he told me that a number other arts could provide "faster self defense." He told me that aikido takes time before it can be used effectively as a self-defense.

Less than a year after starting practice, I used my aikido to save my then brother-in-law's life. I have used it numerous times since then.

I was not promised immediate effectiveness. But effectiveness was implied. And received.

Brenda
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Old 09-29-2005, 10:11 PM   #209
elastoman
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Please nobody takes this as personal
Talking about this 'ground figth' stuff, in real life things goes very different from what jiu jitsu teachs.If the guy wants to go to the ground with you, he is doing one of the most stupid things ever, he is picking all of his weak points and giving for you to use it against him.You can brake his fingers, blind him, kick his eggs and so many other things that the only real secure position in a life and death situation, ( wich is far miles away from those ultimate figth)for him is stay away from you, so that you cant reach those weak points
What the gracies dont say to you is that jiu jitsu is only that efective if you close your eyes to those real life problems and pretend that a real life or death situation would follow a bunch of rules(do this is not allowed, do that is not allowed, and so on) that will not be there.
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Old 09-30-2005, 12:46 PM   #210
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

James,

Welcome to aikiweb!

I'd recommend that you go through and read some of the arguments and post that have occured on this subject as recently as last couple of months.

I'd love to debate and argue this point with you, but frankly I just finished it not too long ago.

I will say this, anyone in the Gracie organization pretty much understands that UFC is not real. They also pretty much know now to fight and how to teach people to fight. While many of there dojos are geared toward competition and NHB events, that is how they have chosen to center their art. I have not found the "gameness" of it all to dilute it effectiveness.

I believe you will find that anyone that holds Dan rank in the Gracie Organization will pretty much demonstrate that they can effectively fight and can address your concerns effeciently.

At least that has been my experiences with them.

Aikido or BJJ is not about "us versus them" or "ours is better than yours". It is about methodology and approach, how you view budo, what you like and what is important to you.

No I am not taking it personally, just that I have been around at least for a little while now, and I for myself have discovered that things in martial arts are just simply not as simple as you state!

I hope your travels have been as productive as mine have been.
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Old 09-30-2005, 03:46 PM   #211
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Here is a quote from Ken Shamrock from an interview he conducted when training some Marines at Quantico. I think it sums up nicely about UFC and groundfighting.

"The techniques have to be adapted to fit their needs," Shamrock said. "The Marines are more in real life. When we fight in the UFC, it's on a nice clean mat. When the Marines fight, they're in the dirt, and it's not quite the same when bombs are going off and bullets are flying over your head. From the time you engage to the time you finish has got to be 3 to 5 seconds. You don't have much time. You either throw the opponent down or take them down with a body throw, and once they hit the ground, immediately snap the neck or knock them out. It's going to be clench, take down and finish quickly."
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Old 09-30-2005, 10:43 PM   #212
mathewjgano
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
With having trained in a 100% resistence environment I'll know, not have theories, not have gameplans, not have hypothesis, I'll know what techniques, strategies, and movements of mine work becuase I've already engaged in training with a fully resistent partner...I much prefer real experience to hypothetically creating situations.
I agree. Theory is only as good as reality proves it to be. Though, theory allows us to evolve our approach and learn from reality, often in a relatively quick manner. Often in the dojo we're learning principles and to better illustrate those principles we sometimes can exagerate a movement to give the mind enough time to become intimately familiar with it, such as over extending someone's posture so we can "punch" right through it. I look at it this way: theory allowed us to predict Neptune and other planets. It's perfectly viable. But we couldn't prove its viability without actually finding them.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:51 AM   #213
Keith R Lee
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Somehow...these threads never die.

I agree with you as well Matthew. Theory training, drills, kata, whatever you want to call it, IS an essential part of any training. Whether it is budo or MMA. However, to really know and understand techniques, to be able to have the working knowledge of how to apply them, one needs to practice them in a fully-resistive environment. It's the final step in the process, and it has to be done.

Keith Lee
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Old 10-01-2005, 10:08 AM   #214
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I would agree with you Keith, but then it also depends on your goals of what you want to get out of your study. To some it is much more important to fully understand the dynamics of aikido and principles of movement, and to study Budo.

Others will care more about putting there training through a cauldron of so-called 100% resistance, which cannot be acheived 100% without risk of injury.
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Old 10-01-2005, 10:09 PM   #215
mathewjgano
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Somehow...these threads never die.
Of course they don't die when people continue to have something to say about the issues they deal with. Is that a bad thing? I don't think it's any worse than any other topic one can speak about when instead they could be practicing. If I take your implication correctly and you mean this is somehow an annoying thing for you to discuss, then maybe you shouldn't bother yourself with it? As for me, I find it a compelling topic. Perhaps you're at a point in your training where you're beyond this topic, but I'm not quite there yet.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-01-2005 at 10:16 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 02-17-2006, 01:36 PM   #216
SMART2o
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

[quote=Roy Dean]"One other thing, when an Aikido technique is done correctly, uke CANNOT RESIST!!"

QUOTE]

Watch advanced black belts train sometime, if you have the opportunity. Techniques can be resisted and countered.
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:27 PM   #217
SMART2o
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

[quote=Lee Mulgrew]The fact is that Aikido does not work in it's 'dojo' form, I mean when will anybody ever attack you shomen uchi style?QUOTE]


Beer bottles and other blunt objects come to mind.
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:29 PM   #218
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

[quote=Mark Chalmers]
Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
"One other thing, when an Aikido technique is done correctly, uke CANNOT RESIST!!"

QUOTE]

Watch advanced black belts train sometime, if you have the opportunity. Techniques can be resisted and countered.

LOL. I think you quoted that from me...and since I'm on a tirade anyway, I'll respond

I imagine it varies school to school. What you call Aikido isn't the same as what I call Aikido.

In the Aikido I've witnessed, it's infallible when applied correctly...but, hey, that's the style I see.
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:42 PM   #219
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

to clarify Jean - you have witnessed "infallible" aikido? It's not an ideal that no one has yet reached?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-17-2006, 03:16 PM   #220
Edwin Neal
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

there is no infallable aikido... kaeshi waza clearly shows this... no one is perfect, but you could be better (less fallable) than the other guy... or not...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-17-2006, 04:07 PM   #221
tarik
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
In the Aikido I've witnessed, it's infallible when applied correctly...but, hey, that's the style I see.
As great as cooperative training is, one issue with purely cooperative training is that one can miss the openings.

There is no technique that does not have openings, no matter how well applied the technique.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-17-2006, 04:28 PM   #222
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
As great as cooperative training is, one issue with purely cooperative training is that one can miss the openings.

There is no technique that does not have openings, no matter how well applied the technique.

I like that one!

I totally agree. When all you ever know is cooperative, then it's consistent with my experience, that you totally overlook integral parts of techniques.

However, moving in such a way as to avoid those openings is part of a properly executed technique.

When I say that "I've witnessed" it, it's more having to do with my definition of technique. If you read back through this thread, I've cited it already.


Michael,

Why bother? You'll not understand anyway.

Edwin,

Agreed. It's the artist that executes the right technique. The right technique is Aikido.
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Old 02-17-2006, 05:08 PM   #223
tarik
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
However, moving in such a way as to avoid those openings is part of a properly executed technique.
I don't believe it's possible to avoid all openings, but certainly for me, 'moving in such a way as to avoid those openings' is ever so slightly a misleading.

Of course, we work to 'eliminate' openings in our technique, but every technique has vulnerabilities that cannot be removed.

Another layer of training is to simply change when our partner moves to use an opening we cannot eliminate. The technique that results is not chosen by us, by our interaction. I guess that's as close to properly executed technique as I can imagine currently.

Takemusu Aikido?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
When I say that "I've witnessed" it, it's more having to do with my definition of technique. If you read back through this thread, I've cited it already.
I'm still reading my way back. Or forward.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-17-2006, 05:26 PM   #224
Edwin Neal
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

infallability is one of the exaggerations that is most common in aikido parlance... there is no such thing... everyone is fallable... any technique from any art is 'infallable' if applied correctly... but that is simply a trick of phrasing it as a logical truth... a choke is infallable, a knock out punch is infallable, a trash can over the head are all infallable if applied correctly... the statement means nothing... it applies to everything if you fill in the blank...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-17-2006, 06:13 PM   #225
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

good point Edwin

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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