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Old 08-01-2005, 01:43 PM   #126
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I think in theory that is an excellent way to look at aikido techniques. I also think that in reality, it is fairly rare that I see someone actually performing consistantly at that level (especially below say, 3rd dan). I also think that with yet more reality (uke actively resisting being put in that situation, while at the same time attacking with the intent to sucsessfully implement their own techniques), consistantly performing at that level is even more rare.

It comes back to the aikido practitioner, not the art, that matters.

Ron (kind of like 'everyone's got a plan, until they get hit')

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-01-2005, 01:50 PM   #127
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Atleast it's not an exaggeration
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Old 08-01-2005, 02:03 PM   #128
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Well, no, not in its pure sense. But when I think about it, any standard, when seen in comparison to the reality, is an exageration. It is rare to see the standard met...that's why its a standard. those who meet it are seen to be 'better' in some way than the existing status quo.

I think...

Ron

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Old 08-01-2005, 04:01 PM   #129
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Atleast it's not an exaggeration
No, but it would be impressive.
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Old 08-01-2005, 07:52 PM   #130
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
To me, an Aikido technique, once it's begun is an exercise in keeping uke off balance until the technique is completed. Further (in my eyes), an Aikido technique that's properly performed maintains pressure on the periphery of uke's balance so that no matter what uke does, you're there at the edge of him/her.

There's no prearranged script. An Aikido technique isn't defined by the actions of sh'te. It's defined by uke. Where uke goes, sh'te is already there taking it away.
Ok now we're getting to it. Where uke goes nage (sorry I'll keep using my langauage for the sake of my own consistancy), is already there? How can this be possible on a conceptual level? If uke turns right, nage is there, if uke turns left nage is there? How can he be in both places.

What I'm getting at is Aikido techniques are based around uke reacting to the unbalancing in a certain way. First of all you have to do the unbalancing correctly. Lets assume that's a given. Now lets freeze the picture. Nage is moving slightly ahead of uke, so that uke's next movement sucks them deeper into the technique. This presumes uke will react in a certain way. The overwhelming number of people will move in that way. But some of them won't. For two primary reasons.
1. they don't have the co ordination to actually recover.
2. they have a clue, know whats coming and are good enough to try and move in a different way.

So lets go back to our frozen picture. Nage has taken uke's balance. Usually by some sort of cut to the third point. To recover uke can do a number of things. Move one leg. Move the other let. take a knee. Try and rolllout. Blend with the unbalancing to keep going to ground and bring nage with him. There's a number of things.
Nage meanwhile is in the process of moving to the next stage of the technique. Oftentimes the adjustment uke needs to make is so small, if they know what they are doing, and they are good, they can do it before nage can continue to keep them off balance. In short uke can make a small movement for nage's long movement and win the race - get insided the action loop.
Thankfully this doesn't mean Aikido fails, it just means that Nage has to move to another technique.

Quote:

About techniques being hard to make happen like that, I don't think it is. When you have the balance and stay at the edge of it, you can't hardly help but to stay there--and being that you're continuously changing the line of attack, uke can't compensate. I think as long as the pressure is maintained against the periphery, uke obviously can't do anything about it (uke advances, you automatically take up the slack).
How long in terms of training time do you think it takes people to develop the sort of competence you're talking about?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-01-2005, 07:55 PM   #131
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

One final point, just to endorse what a previous poster has said (forget which thread). An art that is based on the initial technique having to work perfectly may be interesting on an intellectual level for discussing how gods and ubermensch may fight, but as we are all human and prone to the odd mistake (even the "masters"), it doesn't hold much interst human beings learning how to fight. Thankfully Aikido is not such an art.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-02-2005, 02:25 PM   #132
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

When it come to fighting...I have pretty decent skills. Qualified on many different NATO and soviet based weapon systems, unarmed fighting, knifes, empty hand...etc...I am a pretty decent shot with a sniper rifle, not the best, but I can kill a guy from 800M. I can rig a mecury switch and make a pretty mean malatov cocktail. These are all technique based skills. I didn't need to study principles to understand how to do them.

However, I suck at aikido.

What does practicing a DO based art have to do with reality? It teaches you things about yourself and others. An important part of developing a warrior..but not for the reasons of learning how to kill someone or be "combat effective". There are much faster and better ways to prepare yourself for that.

The ability to make decisions properly and learn the subtle nature of conflict resolution require more than learning techniques.
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Old 08-02-2005, 02:51 PM   #133
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Okay, understood, but for curiosity sake, how do you think you would have done if you had been in a situation like the pizza parlor attack? I think that is the average beginner is asking about. -Rob
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Old 08-02-2005, 06:40 PM   #134
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
1)What I'm getting at is Aikido techniques are based around uke reacting to the unbalancing in a certain way. First of all you have to do the unbalancing correctly. Lets assume that's a given. Now lets freeze the picture. Nage is moving slightly ahead of uke, so that uke's next movement sucks them deeper into the technique.

2)How long in terms of training time do you think it takes people to develop the sort of competence you're talking about?
1)That's not my impression of techniques. Sort of, but not identical.

When I say sh'te is there, I mean 1)sh'te chooses that spot amongst others--it's like walking through water--there's a resistance that stops you from moving too fast, but you can pretty much go anywhere, and 2)my experience has been that it's not so much moving ahead as moving with...when I've experienced it nicely, I was more just guiding it in a direction--almost like my options were limited. So, I wouldn't say that you're necessarily ahead (maybe someone at the top experiences it that way) but just right.

Yeah, I know that's not a very good explanation, but it's the only way I can think to describe it.

2)Sh*t, if I knew I wouldn't be posting here...I'd be training to meet the deadline

I don't even have the vaguest clue. I think I've advanced quicker than most people...However, I'm thinking Aikido 24/7...I wake up at night thinking about techniques, when I change direction walking down the street I think about it's relation to Aikido, when someone walks within striking distance...I think Aikido. Hell, last week, I spent four days at 2 hours per day working on two movements...and that's not counting the other days of the week. I've been practicing a few years and I'm not there.

I believe that I can take someone's balance pretty easy (muscling it). I also beleive that I could manage to walk away from a multiple attacker situation (walk away--not necessarily take all of them...Again, this is all probably false confidence) because I can move.

But, the average person's training? I have no clue. But, that's why I get p*ssed when people talk negatively about Aikido...it's not Aikido, it's the training people choose.

I don't know if my life story was what you were looking for...but, anyway, I imagine if Aikidoka's training was as intense and focused as I hear BJJ's is, the timeline to proficiency would be much faster.


In regard to the pizza parlor: first of all, that guy got what he was asking for...he tried to play the macho role. Myself, I'd of handled it differently. But, if someone took that approach and that swing, I don't think it would of been a problem.

If you were to wait until the guy started swinging to defend yourself, then you could of delivered a palm-heel when he reared back. You could of waited for it to start coming and guide the punch across and then do whatever you want.

I think, from the standpoint of Aikido, that was a real easy assault to deal with. Probably easier for an Aikidoka who could off-balance or guide the guy a lot easier than a pure striker who'd go head-to-head with a whole lot of power.
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Old 08-02-2005, 07:22 PM   #135
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Sean wrote,
"I'm thinking Aikido 24/7...",

I do not question your commitment, but "doing" not theorizing is whats going to give you reality based Aikido skills.


"if Aikidoka's training was as intense and focused as I hear BJJ's is, the timeline to proficiency would be much faster."

For me at least, the key word here is "focused;" because, an MA like BJJ and its training involves the physical, mental and intuition. All these senses are being used both in harmony, and to there maximum. Rarely, does their training involve just a simple discussion, followed by an artificial controlled exercises (to be safe of course!!). With the training described for Aikido, you are left to ponder about the reality of the technique.
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Old 08-02-2005, 09:05 PM   #136
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Can someone direct me to the "Pizza Parlor" attack, that's being brought up in this thread? Maybe a page number or post number?

Thank you
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Old 08-03-2005, 12:09 AM   #137
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Heck Roy...I saw this a few months ago. Not sure where it was discussed sorry. Might try Bullshido.net...I am sure it is on there somewhere.
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Old 08-03-2005, 10:44 AM   #138
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

It was in the general section right here on aikiweb. Search for pizza! (which are words to live by)
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Old 08-03-2005, 12:18 PM   #139
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Sean wrote,
"I'm thinking Aikido 24/7...",

I do not question your commitment, but "doing" not theorizing is whats going to give you reality based Aikido skills.

LOL. One day, I think you might get it. And just because I'm such a sweetheart, I'll give you a hint

No matter what you're doing, if your balance is moving north and you move to change direction to the east, that'll give you info to implement in practice.

Now, try moving to the north and changing to the west...it's a whole new world.

Good luck, little fella. Keep the ax to the stone and I'm sure, one day, you'll figure it out.

BTW, I figured since you neglected the point of my dedicated practice (you know, 2hrs. a day, etc), you needed a little boost.
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Old 08-03-2005, 12:28 PM   #140
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Thanks for all the posts people , and please remeber to thank Jean for being a shinning example, of what the heart of the thread is all about "exageration in Aikido"

Last edited by Roy : 08-03-2005 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 08-03-2005, 07:01 PM   #141
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jean you're right about well applied Aikido technique limiting uke's movement options. Where we disagree is that I don't think you can limit them as much as you think. But there's no way I can prove that to you. I can tell you to get someone to try and really spar with you, but your response will be that you're just not good enough yet. I can ask you to point to someone who can do what you're talking about - consistantly do perfect technique without any chance of error or counter, and you can still tell me it's just because no one can do aikido properly. My point is that if that is the case, it's the same as saying don't expect to get these skills in a timeframe you can use them.
Which is way I'm so pleased that Aikido gives me so many great options for recovery from failure.

You're training hard which is great. Don't kid yourself that it's that unusual. Most of the people on this board will have a similar level of obsession with their budo. At this stage in your training you're very focused on the micro picutre, making each technique as effective as possible. That's great too. But trust me, as your training progresses what you'll start to do is become more interested in the macro picutre, how different techniques fit together, what the similarities are, how one branches into another, or several others depending on uke's response. That's what I'm talking aboutn.

Oh and BTW regarding the doing vs theorizing thing. There is some good evidence that visualisation is almost as good as physical practice in some areas. But this is for rehearsal of a physical skill that has already been, in some sense acquired, rather than coming up with brand new stuff. Not directed at anyone in particular just thought it interesting.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-03-2005, 08:52 PM   #142
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

The easy part in martial arts is perfecting technique the hard part is using the technique. In an Aikido sence learning to apply a technique on an uke is the first part, given long enough we can probably learn to do that very well. Where things get interesting is when you start training with people that have no training in taking ukemi. Noobs are great for this. I've seen people tense up and fall over when I try ikkyo, that to me is probably more in line with reality than the uke that blends with your technique and ends up pinned.
The reaction of tori to this complete failure of uke to take ukemi is what seperates fighters or warriors out from martial artists in my humble opinion.
I think I've said in other threads that I rarely find anyone that can catastrophically break my balance. I find myself in situations where I have pleantly of options after my balance has been "broken" but the only acceptable one from an ettiquet point of view is to fall over.
Even when you have broken uke's balance it doesn't mean that you have them under control. If you take for example irime nage omote cutting through jodan, uke's balance is broken, they may fall onto their knees. They're then expected to try and get up but there's nothing stopping them rolling over and booting you in the nuts or taking the hand thats on their neck and doing something with it.

If there's exageration in Aikido it's that uke behaves as an ordinary person would.
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Old 08-03-2005, 09:04 PM   #143
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Michael Fooks wrote,

"There is some good evidence that visualisation is almost as good as physical practice in some areas. But this is for rehearsal of a physical skill that has already been, in some sense acquired, rather than coming up with brand new stuff."

Well, exactly! Visualizing or reminiscing learned techniques, will only strengthen you're memory/insight to the techniques. But to ponder-up Aikido moves that will theoretically take down a Ju-doka, or BJJ ground fighter based on "Zero knowledge" is both wrong, and will not be anywhere near as effective as actually going to a Judo, or BJJ club, to get a true sense of what Judo/BJJ is all about. If you agree with the above, then perhaps you will agree that to try and convince others of, or make arguments against others, about something you know nothing about, is double wrong; at least, it is in my mind. Would you agree or disagree with me here on this?

P.S I am always open to opinions, negative or positive!! This is what forums are all about

Say what you mean, mean what you say.
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Old 08-03-2005, 09:10 PM   #144
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Alex,
That is true! Just because someone is on the ground does not necessarily make them vulnerable, especially if they train in ground fighting.
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Old 08-03-2005, 09:15 PM   #145
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Hmmm..., when I do iriminage, I expect the person to stay down the first time their balance is broken. If they happen to maintain some degree of control, then I try to lead them up on the edge of their balance (which they are chasing) back up. They then have the option of being led inside the arc (as Michael suggested a few posts back) of my free arm, or going into a much more dangerous spot.

Now, for me to get into iriminage position against someone who is actively trying to knock me down, well that's a horse of a different color. I'm not there yet. In that case, well, it's just not as pretty as I wish it were!

Rob
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Old 08-03-2005, 09:56 PM   #146
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Can someone direct me to the "Pizza Parlor" attack, that's being brought up in this thread? Maybe a page number or post number?

Thank you
Just for folks who wanted to know - Pizza parlor attack - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7653

LC

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Old 08-04-2005, 08:09 AM   #147
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Well, I think a discussion specifically about the pizza parlor attack probably belongs on that thread. I just meant that the original post in thread was (IIRC) about what you can say to a beginner who is asking about using aikido to defend yourself. I agree with Kevin that aikido is not the answer to armed combat, but my point was I think we can assume the beginner is more thinking of a pizza parlor attack situation rather than a Rambo situation. (I understand that Kevin was explaining a rather large exaggeration.)

I know this is an aside as well, but are there specific chokes or other things that cause bodily damage you would expect to learn in ground fighting schools (like BJJ) that would send someone to the hospital - especially things that you wouldn't see too much from people not trained in that methodology? I'm interested in trying to figure out a way to determine just how many "trained" ground-fighters are actually fighting.

Rob
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Old 08-04-2005, 09:05 AM   #148
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Most blood chokes would not send most people to the hospital...if they are released once the person is out. There are some people with wierd stuff going on with their arteries (say, a weakened artieral wall) who might suffer unusual damage, but I think that is rare. If you use an air choke, there's probably a good chance of damaging the trachea, but not if you know what you're doing. So you might see some problems there.

Probably arm bars taken to the breaking or dislocation point would be more of what you'd expect, on a guess. But in reality, none of the bjj people I'm aware of go out looking for fights, any more than most of the aikidoka I know. Silly idea from the get go.

What you *could* do, however, is look at the damages from competition.

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-04-2005, 10:08 AM   #149
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Larry Camejo,

Thank you, for the link to the Pizza Parlor attack! That was one big mother f%#&er!! I see the relevance to that video here. If the victim would have known Aikido, would it have helped him to defeat the guy, or would it have maid the big guy even more mad/insane? Are you really sure that big guy was really that slow? Sure, sure, I know the confident Jean De Rochefort with his theories would of came out victorious, but what about the rest of us?
Hi Roy,

I agree that guy in the video was huge. I think the main reason that the assault even happened successfully had a lot to do with the psychological state and assumptions of the victim, which led to a serious case of un-awareness or denial which placed him in a position that was hard for anyone to defend against once things got started. Imo he should have quietly walked out as Bubba came walking in.

As far as what the rest of us would do in that situation I cannot say. Most MA-ists I know are not trained to handle that degree of focussed, powerful aggression and intent to injure while staying calm, regardless of technical repertoire and training method. The styles with hard resistance-based randori and competition type practices may have an edge on dealing with the adrenal stresss that may come into play in such an encounter, but it really depends on the individual imo. In my personal case, failing the best option of conflict evasion, I offered Shomen Ate as a particular technical option from Aikido in that thread. This is one of the first techniques learnt by anyone in Shodokan and is very simple, linear and straightforward. Does it mean that a beginner can pull it off in situation like the Pizza Parlor attack? Not necessarily. It depends on how it is taught and also the understanding, clarity, resolve and willingness of the student in applying it when under real threat. A couple of my beginners have exhibited this ability, but it does not mean that all can do it. The mind/body/spirit of both Instructor and student must provide fertile ground for this sort of teaching to take root and grow if it is to become part of one's training.

In the case of all SD situations that have degenerated into physical altercation and being effective at surviving it, I quote Peyton Quinn of RMCAT - "Perfect intent is better than perfect technique." The majority of Aikido training I've seen does not teach about developing the right intent to deal with severe SD situations imho. Mushin is a great concept that can easily be applied to this, but I have met very few from any art who are able to actually maintain it under serious imminent physical threat. I have seen though that those who engage in some sort of regularl "sparring" or randori where there is a modicum of danger become a bit more effective at adapting to SD if necessary.

Quote:
Ron wrote:
But in reality, none of the bjj people I'm aware of go out looking for fights, any more than most of the aikidoka I know. Silly idea from the get go.
None of the BJJ folks I met have this problem either. However, I have been made aware by a student of mine who lived in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil until recently that there are gangs of teenagers and young adults mainly who study BJJ and use it as a means to go around terrorising and robbing people. Maybe it's a new kind of Musha Shugyo, maybe it's the (lack of ??) ethical direction in their training curriculum, or maybe it's just the impetuousness of youth, who knows?

LC

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Old 08-04-2005, 10:51 AM   #150
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I know this is an aside as well, but are there specific chokes or other things that cause bodily damage you would expect to learn in ground fighting schools (like BJJ) that would send someone to the hospital - especially things that you wouldn't see too much from people not trained in that methodology?
Chokes are generally considered the compassionate response. Even air chokes are very unlikely to cause permanent damange (although striking to the trachea will) or so I've been told.
To send someone to the hospital you're probably looking at the "snap" rather than "nap" side of the equation.
Damaging the elbow, shoulder, knee or ankle.
But even that is the end point. If you can control position it's then up to you whether you finish via a joint lock (break), choke, or bounding down with fists, elbows, headbutts etc.

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