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Old 07-28-2005, 03:31 AM   #101
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

In my trainng we also recognize the difference between sport fighting and reality fighting and use the two to complement each other. Believe it or not, there are people out there that can tell the diffeerence between the two and it causes no issues.

it can be confusing to novices, and that is why we always tell them the "rules" and perspective when training. I spend a majority of my time talking mindset and endstate when rolling.
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Old 07-28-2005, 04:39 AM   #102
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Thanks for your responses Larry and Kevin, it's reallly helped to solidify my thinking on that topic.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:16 AM   #103
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Just a note: I made a lot of assertions about the potential of Aikido. Rather than respond directly to them, I think I recieved a bunch of personal attacks and/or malicious responses and responses that didn't really answer the questions I posed.

It's funny because, although I may exaggerate the potential of Aikido (which, if you read from the beginning, all I've ever said about it was that it's a "framework"), you folks have failed to give the least reason for someone not to recognize it as the framework.

Of the questions I didn't answer: They were irrelevant to the conversation.

Aikido still offers a defense for all offense--bigger, smaller and multiple.
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:40 AM   #104
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Who attacked you personally? I may not agree with all your statements, but I hope I haven't attacked you. Which ones were malicous in nature? Could you be exagerating?
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:54 AM   #105
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

No, not you at all. I think that most of the posts in this thread, in response to mine, weren't really responding to my points.
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:59 AM   #106
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

That's puzzling to me, I've just gone back and skimmed them again and they all look to be directly responsive. And while some of us have been challenging some of your conceptions about Aikido I don't see much in the way of personal attacks. Ah well *shrug*

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:04 PM   #107
Jorge Garcia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Just a note: I made a lot of assertions about the potential of Aikido. Rather than respond directly to them, I think I received a bunch of personal attacks and/or malicious responses and responses that didn't really answer the questions I posed.

It's funny because, although I may exaggerate the potential of Aikido (which, if you read from the beginning, all I've ever said about it was that it's a "framework"), you folks have failed to give the least reason for someone not to recognize it as the framework.

Of the questions I didn't answer: They were irrelevant to the conversation.

Aikido still offers a defense for all offense--bigger, smaller and multiple.
Jean,
When I made this statement, I felt I was in essence agreeing with your basic premise.

"Secondly, what is aikido's potential? That potential in terms of self defense is limitless. I don't think aikido takes a back seat to any other art."

In other words, I don't feel any other martial art will help me any more that with what I have with Aikido. Essentially, if I was a good enough Aikidoist, I believe that Aikido (in its ultimate form) has all that is needed for self defense against anything.
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:07 PM   #108
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Gentlemen, let's not turn this into a group hug.

Attacks and/OR malicious responses.

I simply believe that the actual points were disregarded. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:57 PM   #109
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Like I said before, it is hard to tell if you are bragging, or constructively taking part in the thread. Keep to the main points, without being "cocky," or condescending and you wont have all these negative responses. Just in case you missed this link to the comic, http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...ewreview&id=81, you can check it out and see for yourself what my impression is of your posts. As far as a group hug goes, well?? We can't all be wrong!
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Old 07-29-2005, 09:54 AM   #110
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Well, to be fair. My impression is that Jean's initial posts on this thread were really good. I didn't take his later ones to be cocky or condescending. I just saw them as he meant to demonstrate his faith in the/his process of learning and developing by means of aikido practice. I thought some of the latter statements were a bit over the top and I wouldn't express them that way to a beginner. But to be fair - this is a "thread", and reading where he was initially coming from in this thread, I can see that I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he meant aikido's potential on some of my criticisms. My apologies on that! That's as far as I'll go because his saying someone who has been reasonable for years doesn't know what they are talking about - well that continues to deserve some negative feedback, but it's over and time to let it drop.

Rob
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Old 07-29-2005, 10:33 AM   #111
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I don't know...Jean kind of reminds me of some of my posts once upon a time...that's probably why I blush when reading some of his posts!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-29-2005, 11:46 AM   #112
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Ok Ok!! I think I went a litle overbaord here!! Not very Aiki of me! And as mentioned above, it is over, and time to let it drop. Sinceraly, Roy
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Old 07-29-2005, 01:41 PM   #113
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Virtual Beers all round.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-29-2005, 01:52 PM   #114
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I understand what you have in your mind when you say that and it's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about nage wandering around and uke following like a puppy dog. I'm talking about a resisiting uke who continues to change their lines of resistance necessitating changes in techniques.
As well as the the somewhat prudent approach that perhaps we should train for recovering from a failed technique just in case it doesn't go perfectly either due to environmental factors outside our control or because (some of us at least) are human.
That's the difference: A compensation for a failed technique.

You said that 'Aikido is bouncing from technique to technique.'

How is it, one minute "that is Aikido" a couple posts later, it's just a recovery?

If you're going to reply to this, please keep it brief. I don't have the time for the long drawn out stuff.

One other thing, when an Aikido technique is done correctly, uke CANNOT RESIST!! There's no base to exercise strength/resistance from...is that false? If not, then how is it that 'bouncing from technique to technique' IS AIKIDO?

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-29-2005 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 07-29-2005, 02:48 PM   #115
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
One other thing, when an Aikido technique is done correctly, uke CANNOT RESIST!! There's no base to exercise strength/resistance from...is that false? If not, then how is it that 'bouncing from technique to technique' IS AIKIDO?
But I think a point that someone was trying to make earlier is that when a jab is done correctly, it connects with a face; when a Thai roundhouse kick is done correctly it lands on a thigh... If the aikido technique is done correctly, then the other guy didn't do his thing correctly.

The real trick is who can do their thing correctly and apply it against another person who is also trying to do their thing correctly. For most of us I would imagine it more truthfully comes down to who makes the fewer mistakes, but maybe that would just be me.

Chris
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:09 PM   #116
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
But I think a point that someone was trying to make earlier is that when a jab is done correctly, it connects with a face; when a Thai roundhouse kick is done correctly it lands on a thigh... If the aikido technique is done correctly, then the other guy didn't do his thing correctly
Maybe. I don't see exactly where the point was attempted.

The concept I was pushing is that a person who has failed to apply the proper technique has experienced a failure with himself/herself...it's not Aikido that failed.

If I look at your point through the same window, would you say that a missed jab was a failure of Boxing or the boxer? Would you say that the failed roundhouse is a failure of Thai or the Muay Thai fighter?
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:25 PM   #117
Roy Dean
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

"One other thing, when an Aikido technique is done correctly, uke CANNOT RESIST!!"

All techniques can be resisted, and/or reversed. You just need to know how to block one of the critical mechanics necessary to complete the technique.

All techniques have a beginning, middle, and end. It may seem as though a techniques cannot be resisted, because
you may be beginning your resistance at the end of the technique. The greater your awareness, the earlier you'll be able to redirect their attempts for application.
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Old 07-29-2005, 06:35 PM   #118
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jean,

I interpreted an earlier post along the lines of what I wrote but I'm not about to go back through all the recent pages. It doesn't matter that much

I do agree that a missed technique is the fault of the person not the art. It could be lack of practice, lack of execution or poor selection/application but it's likely "operator error"

Chris
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Old 07-30-2005, 01:33 PM   #119
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
"One other thing, when an Aikido technique is done correctly, uke CANNOT RESIST!!"

All techniques can be resisted, and/or reversed. You just need to know how to block one of the critical mechanics necessary to complete the technique.

All techniques have a beginning, middle, and end. It may seem as though a techniques cannot be resisted, because
you may be beginning your resistance at the end of the technique. The greater your awareness, the earlier you'll be able to redirect their attempts for application.
I'm not saying this to be a smart-***.

If you feel that way, I would suspect you've never had a technique applied to you properly.

To resist requires strength. Strength (for practical reasons) can only be exercised between two points. Two options Aikido offers is 1)performing a technique from an angle that's perpendicular to the strong line (the line between the two points), or 2)apply technique near the same angle of the strong line, but continually stay just off that angle by changing it as uke changes the strong line. There's more, but those are a couple simple examples.

As far as "attempting to redirect": If I stand with my feet shoulder width apart, no matter what I'm aware of, I will not be able to resist the technique if the techniques strong line is perpendiculer to the line running across my feet. Add to that, the spinning motion, and even on uke's best day, they'll never keep up with the lines changing.

That's just how I see it.
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Old 07-30-2005, 04:05 PM   #120
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
The concept I was pushing is that a person who has failed to apply the proper technique has experienced a failure with himself/herself...it's not Aikido that failed.
Hi Jean, thanks for your response both in this and the other thread, it seems as though we're back to constructive discussion which is great.
Let me put my point like this. I think when you're discussing fighting, any system thad does not have the idea of failure from recovery built in is fundamentally flawed. A system that assumes the first technique will work first time every time is never going to be of use. (thankfully Aikido isn't such a system). There are just too many variables in fighting that make this unlikely, even assuming a perfect practioner which in itself is not achievable. It is still useful to train in this way to teach commitment and intent but reality is that on shot one kill is unlikely.

In terms of properly applied technique being irrisistable I disagree. You're right in that technique should attack weak points. But against an educated and trained opponent who may know what you've got in store for them, the adjustments they need to make early in the technique to force you to change to something else, they can do more quickly than you can complete the technique. In otherwords if they're good enough to get what you're trying to do they can get inside your action loop.

I spent yesterday with John Will one of the top BJJ coaches in the world. He makes the point that the difference between advanced BJJ students and intermediates and beginners is that the advanced ones live in the moment. Which means that whatever tech they are attempting, when the situation changes they will instantly change and adapt with it, abandoning what they were doing if necessary as soon as the "picture" changes. I think its the same with Aikido. The good guys are the ones who can feel uke responding slightly differently, adjusting to the kuzushi slightly differently, countering the technique early, and can turn on a dime to change to the next one that is now more appropriate. There are some that argue that this is the very genesis of many of our techniques.
I'll grant you that the phrase "bouncing from technique to technique" does not quite capture what I meant. I'm talking more about mushin - emptly mind that is not narrowly focused on the technique you may enter with but adapts to whatever movement uke gives you.

Beleive it or not - that was the brief version :-}

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-30-2005, 05:55 PM   #121
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Michael and Jean --

Every aikido technique can be countered via another technique. I wish my memory were clearer so that I could cite the techniques from beginning to end. But I once saw Saito Sensei and his son Hitohirosan do counter techniques to each other for what then seemed like five minutes straight. Saito Sensei performed a technique, Hitohirosan countered, to which Saito Sensei countered, to which Hitohirosan countered and so on and so on.....

So while I agree that a properly executed aikido technique cannot be resisted, it can be countered. Of course, maybe you were both talking just about resistance and not countering.

If so, mea culpa.
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Old 07-30-2005, 07:27 PM   #122
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

yep, that's pretty much the kind of flow I'm talking about. Nage starts initiating a technique, uke starts countering in some way, nage switches to something that is (now) more appropriate.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-30-2005, 08:15 PM   #123
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

BTW Michael...I love your sig...
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Old 08-01-2005, 07:23 AM   #124
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

To me, as long you you are in the right place, at the right time, doing the right thing no one can resist you. I don't see aikido _primarily_ as developing the ability to be like a hydrolic machine where you stand in one place and crank anyone who enters the real estate you are defending - no matter how much kokyu you do it with. I would imagine that is possible if you are _much_ better than the attacker(s), but that's not typically the case (unless you hang out with first graders or something like that!).

In my opinion, at least intermediate level aikido requires you to unfiy with the other person so that you both are contributing to the overall movement. That kind of thing cannot be easily countered. I would say that to counter such a strategy, it would take an attacker who knew what to abandon, when to do so, and when to enter themselves. However, it all comes down to differential in martial ability.

I agree that aikido does not fail, but I would also say the study is typically not oriented to produce great results as rapidly against other people who are trying to hurt you as some other arts. - And I wouldn't trade in my study of aikido for equal time in another art for anything.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-01-2005 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 08-01-2005, 12:27 PM   #125
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
1)Hi Jean, thanks for your response both in this and the other thread, it seems as though we're back to constructive discussion which is great.

2)emptly mind that is not narrowly focused on the technique you may enter with but adapts to whatever movement uke gives you.
1)Yeah, it's nice. I overlooked, what I consider, your initiating offense for what I think is the greater good of Aikido.

2)I get the impression that you are/were using the words kata/form and technique interchangeably.

To me, an Aikido technique, once it's begun is an exercise in keeping uke off balance until the technique is completed. Further (in my eyes), an Aikido technique that's properly performed maintains pressure on the periphery of uke's balance so that no matter what uke does, you're there at the edge of him/her.

There's no prearranged script. An Aikido technique isn't defined by the actions of sh'te. It's defined by uke. Where uke goes, sh'te is already there taking it away. That's why it's unstoppable.

For those of you who think a technique can be stopped (I mean this totally sincerely), think about it like that and let me know what you think. If you disagree, give an example of how it would happen.

About techniques being hard to make happen like that, I don't think it is. When you have the balance and stay at the edge of it, you can't hardly help but to stay there--and being that you're continuously changing the line of attack, uke can't compensate. I think as long as the pressure is maintained against the periphery, uke obviously can't do anything about it (uke advances, you automatically take up the slack).
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