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Old 07-27-2005, 07:45 AM   #76
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I think you can get nidan in Japan in just over 2 years. In some places, basically anyone - no matter how just barely passable their technique is, you can get a nidan. Most people believe the rubber meets the road at sandan. (Like there are typically people who have been nidan for like 15 years who will never go for sandan - ever.) Unfortunately, once someone hits sandan, many people start turning the ranks into measurements of "time in" and "loyalty" as opposed to ability to do things beyond the way you used to do them. (They become experts of the "shu" level, and run away from any mention of "ha" with their eyes closed tightly, their hands over their ears, yelling "la la la la la ...")

I mention this because while I totally agree with the "pro" side of cross training mentioned here (that it helps you get a much better perspective of martial arts and fighting) I want to bring up the "con" side that in the interest of being battle ready, people tend to only deconstruct just enough to gain a degree of effectiveness from a small degree of flexibility and their new found changed-thinking. Then, unfortunately, to stay battle ready it's really hard to give any of that new found effectiveness up to actually continue to make more progress. They get stuck in the "shu+" level or really graduate to the "shu++" level. But in the big picture, they are stuck too. They just get to feel better about themselves because "shu++" is much better than being stuck in the plain old "shu" level. In my opinion, they really should be thinking about how do I take this to the "ha" level - if they are going to claim to be on a "path" as opposed to a "place".

I don't mean to attack anyone specifically. I've just seen it a lot - a real lot. My suggestion is to consider that you might want to get all the way into the "ha" level before cross training, and simply hold your tung about your opinions of other arts until you've crossed trained in them.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-27-2005 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 07-27-2005, 08:48 AM   #77
Jorge Garcia
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Eek! Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I think there are a couple of different ideas running through this thread and I think I may be somewhere in the middle.

#1 Should an aikido instructor tell a prospective student that if they learn aikido, they will be able to do certain things in terms of self defense?
By my way of thinking - No. I believe its not the art that makes you but rather it is the individual that makes the art. No one can promise that the study of any art will make them anything. That depends on the diligence, perseverance, type of teacher, types of training partners, overall coordination and athleticism of the practitioner, his or her height, weight, strength and ability.
Having said that, I would say exactly the same thing for any other art including BJJ, Kung fu, Judo, or Karate. They get the same kinds of people that we do. I think it is OK for an instructor to tell a prospective student what aikido is designed to do such as defend against multiple opponents. You can say that it has both katame waza, nage waza, combination techniques, reversals and changes (henka) and floor techniques. I think it's fruitless to compare it to other arts because that involves intangibles that no one can measure beforehand. I would emphasize that this art is one that emphasizes removing a fighting spirit and personal transformation. If you just want to learn to fight, another art might be better for you.

Secondly, what is aikido's potential. That potential in terms of self defense is limitless. I don't think aikido takes a back seat to any other art. Again though, it depends on the factors I previously mentioned. If you take a big, strong, fast 6th dan in Aikido and put him against lessor endowed BJJ man, the Aikidoist will prevail. If you pit him against a similarly ranked practitioner of any other art, then we can't tell because there are too many intangibles. Remember, Buster Douglas defeated Mike Tyson. I can say one thing though, the Aikidoist would try to stay out of that fight and if he was really high ranked, he would win because that fight would never happen.

Lastly, I don't think a person should cross train until he or she has completely learned the basics of their art and developed that somewhat. I also don't think that a person should cross train trying to round themselves out or add to themselves what they lacked in another art. Any art takes a lifetime to master and diluting your time and efforts like that will make you a jack of all trades and master of none.

Having said that, you should know that I cross train in two other arts besides Aikido. I train in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu and Iaido. I didn't start training in these other arts until I was almost 3rd dan in Aikido. I also didn't go to these arts out of any dissatisfaction with Aikido nor to become a "better fighter" or to improve my self defense skills. I train in Iaido because I am fascinated by the kenjutsu my Aikido sensei teaches us. I want to better understand the relationship and approach of a different style compared to our own so that I can be more proficient and knowledgeable in what we are doing with the Aikido kumi tachis. As in any discipline, a broader perspective helps you understand your own perspective better. For example, I am a Christian but I have spent a lot of time studying world religions. I wasn't dissatisfied with my own religion. I felt no lack in my personal practice of Christianity. I wasn't seeking to mix all these belief's together into some form of syncretism.
I was seeking to see the whole picture better and to establish my own beliefs against a context. That is why I cross train in martial arts.
As for Daito ryu, it is the parent art of Aikido. I am doing it for the same reasons. I am interested in the different approaches to similar concepts such as kokyu-ho and aiki.
In terms of class time, I train 52 hours a month in Aikido, I train 4 hours a month in Iaido and 4 hours a month in Daito ryu aikijujutsu. That should show where I think a person's priorities should be in terms of Aikido and other martial arts. This one is hard enough to learn!

I don't think a person should be filled with self doubt about their martial art. I have none about Aikido. I have seen too many wonderful and powerful people in Aikido. Should we exaggerate? No. Can we trust that this art can handle most contingencies? Yes, but under certain qualifications that are also apply to all martial arts. If you can't defend yourself with this one, I suspect you will have the same problem somewhere else that you had here. You might want to look into handgun training and get a concealed weapons permit. That should solve your problem - unless your attacker has a bullet proof vest!
Best,

Last edited by Jorge Garcia : 07-27-2005 at 08:56 AM.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-27-2005, 09:49 AM   #78
L. Camejo
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I think while Jean has quite a few misconceptions of his own, his antagonists also fall prey to this, though maybe not as much.

In both cases the misconceptions come from the experiences, level of understanding and training experienced by those involved. Please remember folks that the results of one's training is a direct result of the goals that one has towards training and the means one employs to get there. "Aikido" in no way is a homogeneous thing with many methods of approach and instruction even within the founder himself. From my experience folks often take a snapshot of Ueshiba M.'s life to define his Aikido (and by extension "what Aikido should be") instead of looking at his entire life's training and understanding how that helped develop his Aikido over time.

Regarding the initial point of the thread-
Quote:
Is it wise to say to new members at an Aikido club that by learning Aikido you will be able to take-on much larger attackers (or multiple attackers)? "In general," might saying this give a false confidence to the average Aikidoka?
It depends a lot on the skill and teaching level of the particular instructor to deliver on his promises if he makes the claim imo. He/she must have thorough knowledge of what is really involved in taking on multiple and larger attackers in real life and offer consistently effective Aikido-based methods that allow the weaker/smaller person to come out on top every time. This should include of course evasion and awareness training and options of not getting into these situations to start with. Obtaining this degree of understanding in order to teach it comes from well outside the Aikido training paradigm imo and enters the realm of human psychology, body mechanics, awareness, positioning, observation training etc. etc.

Personally I think this can be misleading to a beginner if he thinks he can achieve this in a few weeks of casual practice, but for the student who is serious about achieving these goals and is constantly vigilant to various means of getting there (outside of dojo training) it is very obtainable.

Imo it should be obvious to the beginner that if he is unable to do these things in the dojo with resistant Uke he has almost no hope of doing it with a serious attacker for real. Overconfidence and misleading only appears when the dojo culture starts acting as if the technique done in the dojo during cooperative or low resistance free practice in some way is representative of reality. It's all in how you perceive the goal and results of certain types of training. For those who practice "kata-only" Aikido I think the stated goal is even less obtainable since kata alone does not build one's skill level in spontaneous application of technique, which is what is required for real world defence.

Quote:
Aikido can never have a sparring component like Judo or BJJ without sacrificing much of what it is. (cue shudothugs).
I think this is a gross misconception and generalisation. It depends on what you perceive Aikido to be. If one understands the concept of Aiki in itself (i.e. not allowing oneself to become fettered by the set definition of any particular institution) the "sparring" done in Judo, BJJ etc. is merely one step above what even traditional Aikido schools practice as randori or jiyu waza, with the difference being the free will to resist and counter technique on both sides. If it does not "look" like "Aikido" then this is a testament to the quality of Aikido (or lack thereof) being executed, not a definition of what Aikido is not.

Can Aikido teach one to defend oneself in all possible self defence situations? No imo.

Can application of the tactical and strategic paradigms embodied in the concept of Aiki teach one to defend oneself in all possible self defence situations? Yes imo.

Are these conceptual paradigms learnt in Aikido dojo training. Yes imo.

So I guess I agree with Jean to a point regarding the "framework" concept, but I also agree with the others as well regarding what is truly involved in dealing with attacks in the real world, which is not addressed in many Aikido dojo ime. The fact is, not many Aikido instructors globally have much experience or training in that area or teach in a manner that brings real effectiveness to someone who seeks to achieve the aforementioned goals. As such, if those types made the claims presented at the beginning of the thread it would in fact be misleading to beginners.

Maybe it's just me, but I see no dichotomy in being a highly skilled technician of Aikido to the point of effective multi/larger attacker self defence while embodying Ueshiba M.'s philosophy of peace and protection of all life. It just calls for a very high standard of spontaneous Aiki and serious dedication to correct training. I don't think the multi-attacker practice and kuzushi concepts embodied in Aikido are there just to be played with as a fun game, but provides the core concepts from which one can understand how to apply the concepts which should encompass situations such as real life attacks - physical or otherwise.

Just my thoughts.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:03 AM   #79
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

These last post sure seem to be on target to the heart of the matter.

The main topic was not meant to question the heart of Aikido, it is just a basic general question, that questions whether some Aikido instructors exaggerate. Ultimately, to say you can take on bigger opponents etc.. etc.. kinda goes against Aikido ideals! Not to mention the fact of reality, going against bigger guys/gals, more then most likely wont be good for your health.

Why not cross-train? Ueshiba was not just an Aikido master, but an Aiki jujitsu master as well?

Last edited by Roy : 07-27-2005 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:21 AM   #80
Miguelspride67
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I think a Nikyo could break any person defense. How much it weights, is not matter of disscusion.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:59 AM   #81
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Whoa. That's a lot of posts. I'll not quote...Just paraphrase as necessary and try to keep this to one or two sentence responses.

Larry Camejo: What, me misconception?

Kevin:"Real world" misconception: give me just one single example of real world situation where Aikido does not have an answer...except for getting whacked with a pipe in back of the head

I never said that it's posture and balance (however, it is significant as it relates to movement) that negates ground fighting (or atleast that wasn't my intent, even if it was the implication). Although, the two play, possibly, integral roles, technique is also huge.

On that, I think the hand portion of technique is huge (I, however, also believe that Aikido does not exclude things such as pulling on an ear, poking an eye or reaching down someone's pants if the occasion arises.). No doubt, your hands need to be connected to your hips to perform a pretty technique. However, if I pulled off a kote-gaeshi--even if it's more a single-finger-gaeshi--barring other MA experience, wouldn't you say I learned it through Aikido?

On "one shot, one kill": If you apply, correctly, a hitting-elbow, is it over? If you apply correctly, all-direction, is it over? If you choose it to be over, it will be over.

As part of that, with every technique in the reportoire, (barring beginners) we should be learning to recognize and take uke's balance. We should also be learning how to recognize and exploit the weak line. (I imagine the two are somewhat the same, but to me, "taking balance" is more along the lines of taking over a body in motion, whereas exploiting the weak line is more controling the uncooperative).

In regard to "real life, bets are off": I know when real life hits, it's different than the dojo. However, the dojo should compensate for that. Amongst other things, as mentioned earlier, the techniques are broader to compensate for how we move when hit with the fight/flight.

I might be crazy, but I don't think Ueshiba and all of his great students would of made it as far as they did if this stuff didn't work in the real world. Just reading Shioda, that guy's been in plenty real life, life threatening situations.

Ron Tisdale: Your example is of you whooping everybody. I think, first, that's principally different from this situation. In this situation, I'm claiming to recognize principals and their applicable context via appropriate technique (or maybe what I just said makes no sense and I just really liked the phrasing and am just going with it). Your example is "me vs. you" type...I'm not saying that I can apply the techniques in any situation...I can just see clearly that they can be done.

Roy Leclair: Brother, I'm beyond rank. I'm about technique and training. The desire for belts left me a long time ago...atleast relatively speaking. I just train.

On "bragging" and moving faster than...: So, someone says that BJJ is the "best" for actual combat training (or something to that), and I respond that they don't train for speed on their feet like Aikido and here's my example. That's bragging?

In the post you said I was "bragging" in, you said it was 'all' or 'most' my posts. Don't you have more examples?

In either case, I'm not trying to brag. I don't think my skills are all that great. What I believe is that to be "street effective" is pretty easy. People move slow. Because I train and pay attention, I move faster than most. I also believe that people only have to points from which to balance. To grab an arm or head and tug on an angle that's perpendicular to the line that runs between those two points is pretty darn easy.

I don't claim that you will not take a strike in the process. I'm just saying that fighting isn't like it is in the movies...and the UFC isn't realistic.

Ultimiately, a real fight lasts maybe two minutes. Adrenaline's high. People are scared. It's not hard to get a technique in and walk away.

Micheal Fooks: I don't think you know what you're talking about. "Bouncing from technique to technique" is ludicrous. If you get your hands on someone and you can't plant the technique, you used the wrong one. That's not Aikido.

If you selected the right technique (mind you, that's not a conscious process) it's unescapable. That's Aikido.

I do know what a sucker punch. When you're good at Aikido, there's no such thing...you're never a sucker.

Regarding the rolls/falls/whatever...just options.

Regarding the "testing": Yes. I've been in a few situations and stayed standing.

To the numbered: 1)Nope. I don't tell them. I let them believe what they want. 2)It's not necessary. Aikido teaches you the infinite realm of body movement.
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:04 PM   #82
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Well, that's impressive. The thread is called "exaggeration in aikido" so who can complain... - Rob
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:12 PM   #83
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

where's the exaggeration? be specific.
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:44 PM   #84
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I agree with you that aikido is very good and wonderful and can really work.

Quote:
In regard to "real life, bets are off": I know when real life hits, it's different than the dojo. However, the dojo should compensate for that.
Real life is hitting right now. Besides the nitpicking point that it doesn't compensate, or any other action verb for that matter. The dojo is merely a place where you can better prepare for real fights, but as Larry suggested it's really up to how you are training and for what reason. Most people are not doing aikido against sophisticated attacks, multiple attacks with Kamikazes who will sacrifice their safety to slow you down so that the next guy can wallop you, etc... (You know, the things that happen for real...) If you do work on those things then I stand by what I initially said - that's impressive. If not, then that's probably a good example of an exaggeration.

Quote:
I'm beyond rank.
Either you have rank or not. If you are in aikido, the only one beyond rank would be a doshu. You being beyond rank is probably an exaggeration. If you really are a doshu then that's impressive.

Quote:
Micheal Fooks: I don't think you know what you're talking about. "Bouncing from technique to technique" is ludicrous. If you get your hands on someone and you can't plant the technique, you used the wrong one. That's not Aikido.
I've read Micheal Fooks on RMA since the early 90s and he seems to know what he is talking about. "Bouncing from technique to technique" is only _ludicrous_ if you are so much beyond the person who is actively trying to resist your technique that they cannot possibly influence what is going on. Talking about it as if you can make that assumption seems to be either very impressive or another example of an exaggeration.

I can go on, but those cover the basics...
Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-27-2005 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 07-27-2005, 01:37 PM   #85
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Sean wrote, "I don't think my skills are all that great"

Great, thanks for admitting that! Now after saying that, why not try to not be so condescending of others posts as if it is a personal mission to do so. Especially when you don't know what you are saying! Thank You.

"What I believe is that to be "street effective" is pretty easy"
Here's another example of bragging that you requested! Considering your skill are not all that great, How can you assume to know?

And another! "Because I train and pay attention, I move faster than most."

And another! "To grab an arm or head and tug on an angle that's perpendicular to the line that runs between those two points is pretty darn easy."

Let me know if you need more eg's?

Oh by the way, what does this mean? "I do know what a sucker punch. When you're good at Aikido, there's no such thing...you're never a sucker."

Last edited by Roy : 07-27-2005 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:14 PM   #86
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
Lastly, I don't think a person should cross train until he or she has completely learned the basics of their art and developed that somewhat. .
While I agree with this to a certain degree, (I suspect my threshold for when someone has a good enough handle to start cross traiing is lower), let's remember that the divisions between the arts is somewhat artificial. Specialisation is a relatively modern phenomena and, as Heinlen says, for insects

Which is also kind of my next point, you list a couple of arts you cross train in, apparantly because of their relation to, or enhancement of your aikido. I cross train BJJ and am on of those who will argue that it is aikido in a ground setting. But I think if you talk to any one who cross trains in any two arts they are likely to emphasise the similarities between the arts rather than the differences. Because I suspect everything is more closely related than we often realise.

Having said all that to re address the original topic of the thread. The reason cross trainng came into I think, and is a valid part of the discussion is because, if as an Akidoka you are going to make claims about Aikido being able to handle anything, it behooves you to aquaint yourself with some other arts to understand what that "anything" may entail. Otherwise you're certainly in the realm of exagerration. Note this doesn't have to be cross training but could be the odd visit to or from another club.

Thanks for a good post.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:25 PM   #87
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
I think this is a gross misconception and generalisation. It depends on what you perceive Aikido to be. If one understands the concept of Aiki in itself (i.e. not allowing oneself to become fettered by the set definition of any particular institution) the "sparring" done in Judo, BJJ etc. is merely one step above what even traditional Aikido schools practice as randori or jiyu waza, with the difference being the free will to resist and counter technique on both sides. If it does not "look" like "Aikido" then this is a testament to the quality of Aikido (or lack thereof) being executed, not a definition of what Aikido is not.
Hi Larry, a good post as usual. This may be a topic for another thread, but I'm interested on your thoughts on this. Let me explain what I meant in more detail.
Certainly we can ramp up uke's resistance and make things more realistic. What I'm not convinced we can do to Aikido without losing something, is instigate the sort of sparring where there is no distinction between uke and nage. Where both are concerned with winning a "match". My take is that this kind of sparring has a completely different energy pattern and therefore strategy to what Aikido was trying to accomplish. If someone is attacking me but is just as concerned about watching out for my kote gaeshi as they are about actually hurting me, it's a different kettle of fish. I guess I'm talking about the difference between a sparring match, and an assault.
Now obviously you can set up this kind of a match, but because of the changes that result you are going to doing a somewhat different style of aikido, smaller, in some sense less committed (in terms of commitment to the technique and the action). I guess I can come back to Judo and BJJ - sparring in those arts is not what real fighting looks like. The grip fighting, the feinting etc that is required for competition. No doubt they can translate this to real world effectively, but my point is the sparring and competition focus has altered the arts because it's a different set of techniques and strategy that work on someone that knows your game and is holding back their attacks because of that.

I wouldn't like to see that happen to aikido. It works great with genuine assault type attacks and I'd rather keep it as it is and get my sparring attributes from another art. My understanding is that this is what the competitive schools of aikido do within their own art to some degree? i.e. they type of fighting they use for sparring isn't the only type of aikido they practice, they also devote time to traditonal techniqes agaisnt assault type attacks? Maybe someone can confirm or deny that.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:51 PM   #88
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

You guys are taking this a little personal, don't you think?

Rob: "Beyond" means that I don't worry about it and I've stopped testing. I don't need a certificate to tell me that I know a group of techniques. There's no difference between today and tomorrow if tonight I demonstrate I know some techniques...to me, it's all about the training.

Sure, maybe Micheal Fooks knows what he's talking about. However, from my perspective, as I understand it, he doesn't. Hell, from his perspective, I probably don't know what I'm talking about. What's the difference?

My goal is to be able to use the right technique for the moment. That's my idea of Aikido.

Now, I don't think any of this was exaggerative...only misinterpreted. I offered no misrepresentation of myself. So, enjoy.

Roy: Being that the key element of "bragging" is pride, you're mistaken.

All your examples are things that I consider most Aikidoka to be able to accomplish with equal potential. So, am I bragging about myself (as I think you imply) or Aikido?

If it's Aikido, I think I'm just stating unemotional fact.

If it's about myself, hmmm, seems like I'd of talked only about myself.

Whatever.

Regarding "sucker punch" check my history. Me and Mike Gallagher just had an extensive one on this.

Finally, "condescension" is your misinterpretation.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-27-2005 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:02 PM   #89
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:

Micheal Fooks: I don't think you know what you're talking about. "Bouncing from technique to technique" is ludicrous. If you get your hands on someone and you can't plant the technique, you used the wrong one. That's not Aikido.
Ok I'm really trying not to be rude here but you're making it hard. If this is not something you are training then your training is deficient. It's called henka waza. You may be going for ikkyo ura but don't get underneath the elbow so switch to kote gaeshi. Someone may be resisting your juji nage so you switch to shiho nage. There's a limitless range of possibilities but there's also a number of techniques with specific relationships to other techniques depending on how uke is responding. The idea of flowing from one tech to another as uke changes their engergy lines is what makes aikido aikido. The two step drills we do are to teach basic techniques and concepts. In an active jiyu waza against an uke who isn't tanking you need to be much more flexible. This is something you must train.

Quote:
.

I do know what a sucker punch. When you're good at Aikido, there's no such thing...you're never a sucker.
uh huh. to clarify is this something that is actually achieved or one of those things that Aikido will give you once you know it all (while remembering that no one ever does).

Quote:

To the numbered: 1)Nope. I don't tell them. I let them believe what they want.
Go back and re read your posts on this thread. you've specifcally told people that things they are saying will happen in reality is because they haven't been training enough.
Quote:
2)It's not necessary. Aikido teaches you the infinite realm of body movement.
really? Tell me again where in the traditional aikido syllabus I'll find shrimping?

Last edited by Aristeia : 07-27-2005 at 03:07 PM.

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Old 07-27-2005, 03:04 PM   #90
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Having said all that to re address the original topic of the thread. The reason cross trainng came into I think, and is a valid part of the discussion is because, if as an Akidoka you are going to make claims about Aikido being able to handle anything, it behooves you to aquaint yourself with some other arts to understand what that "anything" may entail. Otherwise you're certainly in the realm of exagerration. Note this doesn't have to be cross training but could be the odd visit to or from another club.
Then what about Shioda's 'if you need to see what else is out there, everytime someone devises a new technique, you'll be helpless?' (obviously paraphrased. If I recall correctly, it's from Aikido Shugyo).
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:06 PM   #91
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Ok I'm really trying not to be rude here but you're making it hard. If this is not something you are training then your training is deficient. It's called henka waza. You may be going for ikkyo ura but don't get underneath the elbow so switch to kote gaeshi. Someone may be resisting your juji nage so you switch to shiho nage. There's a limitless range of possibilities but there's also a number of techniques with specific relationships to other techniques depending on how uke is responding. The idea of flowing from one tech to another as uke changes their engergy lines is what makes aikido aikido. The two step drills we do are to teach basic techniques and concepts. In an active jiyu waza against an uke who isn't tanking you need to be much more flexible. This isn't something you must train.
Yeah, I think training like that is the "dance" people think Aikido's becoming.
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:08 PM   #92
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Personally, I might have qualified some of those statements with words like: As I understand aikido's potential, ultimately there should be no need to worry about someone taking you to the ground or sucker punching you, etc.

But I suppose is can be both my and Roy's misinterpretation of your expression. But to me (and Roy) it just seemed more like your mis-representation. I'm not trying to pick on you, but rather point out that a new person joining your dojo might come away with the same mis-understanding of your intended message. (FYI: According to NLP, the responsibility for a failed interpretation is typically placed on the sender.)

Rob
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:10 PM   #93
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Yeah, I think training like that is the "dance" people think Aikido's becoming.
I understand what you have in your mind when you say that and it's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about nage wandering around and uke following like a puppy dog. I'm talking about a resisiting uke who continues to change their lines of resistance necessitating changes in techniques.
As well as the the somewhat prudent approach that perhaps we should train for recovering from a failed technique just in case it doesn't go perfectly either due to environmental factors outside our control or because (some of us at least) are human.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:11 PM   #94
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Michael Fooks,

I agree! Having a judo background, I realize that if I were to use a grip on an Aikidoka's arm, I would be in trouble! Nikyo, Ikkyo could easily be applied. And believe it or not, there are quite a few Judokas that don't realize this (although, many do). The thing that most Aikidoka (Although some do) don't realize is that if they get there center taken (which is what Judokas are masters at), and end up on the ground with one of these Judo guys, they will be in a world of trouble! And lets not forget that higher levels of judo practice various forms of Jujitsu, which is similar to Aikido. BJJ is in my opinion a street-combat ground style Jujitsu that compliments Aikido perfectly!!! Because, you don't necessarily want to be an the ground (that could in itself be dangerous), but if you do you will have the advantage over an unskilled ground fighter.

Last edited by Roy : 07-27-2005 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:11 PM   #95
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Then what about Shioda's 'if you need to see what else is out there, everytime someone devises a new technique, you'll be helpless?' (obviously paraphrased. If I recall correctly, it's from Aikido Shugyo).
show me where any of us have advocated learning every technique on offer?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:23 PM   #96
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Michael Fooks,
"This may be a topic for another thread"

I think your right! The subject of, should Aikido be supplemented would make a great thread. I'm looking forward to it.
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:29 PM   #97
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Michael, Sean, Rob,

Check the comic on this link out! Its reminds me of what is taking place in this thread http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...ewreview&id=81
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Old 07-27-2005, 04:13 PM   #98
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Lots of talk about "real". Real situation, real world.. The problem with real world is that it can mean different things to different people depending on their perspective.


Jean wrote:

Quote:
Kevin:"Real world" misconception: give me just one single example of real world situation where Aikido does not have an answer...except for getting whacked with a pipe in back of the head
AIkido has no answers...it is a simply a DO and WAY and training methodology. It is not framed around providing scenario based solution sets. Therefore, it is entirely possible to say it has a technique for every situation to it has none. Did I ever say that Aikido was invalid? or did I say "there are better ways to learn self defense? There is a huge difference. Pipes to the back of the head are a great example of reality. also guns.

This is exactly the reason why I find training in MA for self defense kinda pointless. I believe the physical, mental, and spiritual elements you get out of them are far greater benefits than the few things you get out of self defense. But there are strategies and situation in which they are useful as part of a spectrum of defense...say for soldiers and police officers.


Quote:
In regard to "real life, bets are off": I know when real life hits, it's different than the dojo. However, the dojo should compensate for that. Amongst other things, as mentioned earlier, the techniques are broader to compensate for how we move when hit with the fight/flight.
Not really sure what you mean by this, but you are correct "all bets are usually off' which is why most of us are saying there are many others out there that do not fight from the same paradigm you have grown comfortable with in your training. It is worth exploring them to discover the strengths and weaknesses of your training. It is amazing what you learn. Which is why I advocate cross training...not to learn or confuse yourself with new techniques, but to see new challenges and paradigms.

Quote:
might be crazy, but I don't think Ueshiba and all of his great students would of made it as far as they did if this stuff didn't work in the real world. Just reading Shioda, that guy's been in plenty real life, life threatening situations.
Again, don't know what your definition of real world is...but I believe you will find that they never professed to use "aikido" for "real" only themselves as a fighter made up of the totality of their life experiences. Which included many other arts.


Quote:
I don't claim that you will not take a strike in the process. I'm just saying that fighting isn't like it is in the movies...and the UFC isn't realistic.

Always an interesting debate. Don't want to get into a discussion about the UFC being real or not. It is a sport, but what isn't realistic about it? It gets pretty darn close without the parameters of multiple opponents, the ability to disengage and run, and weapons..which I admit is a huge bunch of parameters...but it is still pretty darn realistic for what it is.

Also interesting that you limited my ability in the first quote to leave out ambush techniques such as getting hit by a pipe, which in a sense establishes rules..then turn around and say well UFC isn't real.

My point is there is a spectrum of what reality is..from you can only grapple..to you never no what he may pull and when. It takes experience, wisdom, and maturity to recognize the futility of arguing about this spectrum and at what point constitutes reality.

If you are focused on the DO...then it really is immaterially what reality is.

Quote:
IUltimiately, a real fight lasts maybe two minutes. Adrenaline's high. People are scared. It's not hard to get a technique in and walk away.
You make it sound so simple...even the UFC is more challenging than this statement. This situation is EXACTLY how most UFC fights go except you cannot walk away since the cage is closed.

I'd be interested to hear what Reality really is (that is why I typically put quotes around "real word"...cause they are emotional words that mean very little, and can cover a whole lot of territory!

Once you establish reality...then you can benchmark exaggeration!

Until then, we are all simply studying a martial way to peace and harmony and anything that effectively leads to that within the martial context acceptable...anything superflous to that is an exaggeration.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 07-27-2005 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:03 PM   #99
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I've read Micheal Fooks on RMA since the early 90s and ...
The funny thing is I seem to spend the bulk of my postcount on Aikidweb on the benefits of BJJ type arts and the bulk of my postcount on RMA defending Aikido and traditional arts. *shrug*

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:43 AM   #100
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
What I'm not convinced we can do to Aikido without losing something, is instigate the sort of sparring where there is no distinction between uke and nage. Where both are concerned with winning a "match". My take is that this kind of sparring has a completely different energy pattern and therefore strategy to what Aikido was trying to accomplish. If someone is attacking me but is just as concerned about watching out for my kote gaeshi as they are about actually hurting me, it's a different kettle of fish. I guess I'm talking about the difference between a sparring match, and an assault.
Very well said Michael. The thing is that the Randori method Tomiki created that is used for tournament or shiai-based training is very easily expanded towards self-defence type training where the limitations of techniques and attacks as found in shiai can be modified to the point where it's less like a sparring match for points and more like an assault by a skilled attacker (i.e. not giving away balance, good targeted striking, aware of what you might do to respond and skilled enough to shut it down or utilise it to further his attack if possible). In this method there is still no Tori or Uke, but one person does have a tanto which will affect how he attacks and uses technique. In this sort of training it is not a match for points but a test of application of skill and technique to control the attacker and stop his assault without injuring him while he tries everything to plunge that tanto into you, resist and counter your technique with his own Aiki waza.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Now obviously you can set up this kind of a match, but because of the changes that result you are going to doing a somewhat different style of aikido, smaller, in some sense less committed (in terms of commitment to the technique and the action).
The thing is that there is no guarantee that says an assault will always involve a committed attack. It depends on the type of assault. Also as far as technique goes, if one is uncommitted then there is a risk involved (i.e. being in position to get sliced/stabbed/hit) that is also existent as in an actual assault. The idea is to be committed in technique but at the same time unfettered by not trying to execute a particular technique after its interval for complete execution has passed or it has been shut down.The idea is to use everything about the attacker's movement, reactions etc. to get off the right technique at the right time. So one is committed in technique, just not mentally bound to executing that technique to the point where the situation is a muscle contest of force vs resistance. One in fact uses the resistance to show the path of the next technique that will work if the first one has failed.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
guess I can come back to Judo and BJJ - sparring in those arts is not what real fighting looks like. The grip fighting, the feinting etc that is required for competition. No doubt they can translate this to real world effectively, but my point is the sparring and competition focus has altered the arts because it's a different set of techniques and strategy that work on someone that knows your game and is holding back their attacks because of that.
Agreed. I've come to look at sparring in different ways since doing Aikido, Judo, Japanese Jujutsu and a bit of BJJ also. There is sport sparring and there is "other" sparring imo. Sport sparring adheres to the rules of the game and is designed to develop skill in the sport via tactics which include exploitation of the rules etc. for the purpose of winning the game or bout. This is good for those training for sport and affects all arts with shiai. It will undoubtedly develop habits that will only survive in a rules-based (and protected) environment e.g. the grip fighting you referred to.

"Other" sparring can be tailored to meet other, non sport-oriented goals. This can include "Self Defence" (for lack of a better term) sparring which is designed to mimic the speed and intensity of an assault, where the goal here is to survive the assault and if possible control your attacker. Rules-based protection (for safety reasons) are strictly highlighted so the practitioners know that this is not equal to an actual assault but an approximation and are therefore made fully aware that they or the attacker can do other things in a true "rule-less" environment that are not addressed in the particular sparring exercise. These other aspects may even be addressed in a different type of tailored sparring. This is the same principle that is followed by folks who do scenario-based training, though there are a few differences. The armed attacker of course is encouraged to make a successful assault while the defender 's job is to "survive" the assault.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I wouldn't like to see that happen to aikido. It works great with genuine assault type attacks and I'd rather keep it as it is and get my sparring attributes from another art. My understanding is that this is what the competitive schools of aikido do within their own art to some degree? i.e. they type of fighting they use for sparring isn't the only type of aikido they practice, they also devote time to traditional techniques against assault type attacks? Maybe someone can confirm or deny that.
Agreed. And yes we do practice techniques outside the "sport sparring" paradigm regularly as I indicated above.

Great post and question Michael. I think we agree more than anything else.

LC

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