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Old 07-24-2005, 04:30 PM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jean Wrote:[/quote]
LOL! I just reread your post. Not effective or realistic? If that's been your experience, then I'd say that your Aikido instructor that you visited once or twice was either 1)not showing you Aikido because you weren't ready for it or 2)wasn't showing you Aikido because he didn't really understand it himself.

Agreed, Aikido isn't a quick learn...Neither is any other MA. If you wan't "killer techniques" go to the bookstore and pick up any defense book and practice them with your buddies.[quote]

Your making a bunch of assumptions that simpy are not true. I am not sure of your experience or background outside of aikido to make these assumptions, but here is mine.

1. I am in the military...for over 20 years now. (ranger, airborne...all that stuff.)
2. I am 40 years old and do combatives training.
3. I have studied aikido for close to 10 years with some very good instructors. Saotome Sensei, Bob Galeone, Jimmy Sorentino (all ASU)...not just a few classes.
4. I have a Blue Belt in Gracie Jiujitsu from Gracie Barra organization.
5. I am a certified Army Combatives Instructor.
6. I have used my martial experiences in real life for detention, self defense, and in competition.
7. I find BJJ to be much easier on my body than AIkido in many respects.

I believe I am better qualified than you to say why the military picked the training methodology that they did. Many of your assumptions are simply incorrect.

Jean, I am not sure you are really paying close attention to my post, or maybe I just don't write that clearly I am not bashing aikido, so no need to get offended so easily.

My only point is that you seem to feel that aikido is superior to many martial arts. It is not, it is simply another methodology designed to accomplish the founders philosophical goals. It is a sound and effective martial art. It is not, however, the best art, nor the only art to have the answers many are looking for.

Have you really spent time with a decent BJJ instructor? You will find them to be as soft, efficient, and flowing as aikido. Sure, they spend tons of time on the ground. Sure, they have weaknesses in their stand up game, which is why you will see that most of them have partnered with Muay Thai guys, Kali, aikido, and others that they find offer them things to become more well rounded.

One thing I will say, is I have found most BJJ guys to be more open minded than most aikido guys, you seem to be proving that once again.
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Old 07-24-2005, 05:27 PM   #52
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
1)Your making a bunch of assumptions that simpy are not true.

2)I find BJJ to be much easier on my body than AIkido in many respects.

3)I believe I am better qualified than you to say why the military picked the training methodology that they did. Many of your assumptions are simply incorrect.

4)I am not bashing aikido, so no need to get offended so easily.

5)My only point is that you seem to feel that aikido is superior to many martial arts.

6)Have you really spent time with a decent BJJ instructor? You will find them to be as soft, efficient, and flowing as aikido. Sure, they spend tons of time on the ground. Sure, they have weaknesses in their stand up game, which is why you will see that most of them have partnered with Muay Thai guys, Kali, aikido, and others that they find offer them things to become more well rounded.

7)One thing I will say, is I have found most BJJ guys to be more open minded than most aikido guys, you seem to be proving that once again.
Yeah, you got me. I read "Aikido not realistic" and I got p****. LOL.


1)What inaccurate assumptions (specifically) besides your Aikido experience?
2)I think that should be natural being that as uke you take so many throws. However, I think in general, if Aikido is hard on your body, you're doing something wrong (that's why you should be able to practice sh'te as long as you live).
3)I'd agree that you're a better source for what you guys are doing...but I don't expect the people who made the choice of "why" have time to play with me on the internet. However, I was under the assumption that you were referring to basic.
4)I've never gottent the impression that you wanted to bash Aikido. However, my impression is that your perspective is limiting of Aikido and you express it...that's not, IMO, in the best interest of Aikido. If I agreed with your perspective, obviously, I'd have nothing to say...If your position was simply "Aikido is a difficult art to get from 0 to awesome with"...Man, I'd chuckle and post a "here, here." However, your position is to cross-train. Cross-training is the worst thing an Aikidoka can do (unless he/she is at the level where he/she can apply the techniques of Aikido in any situation), and that's why I respond as I do. I think you're doing a disservice to Aikido by your recommendations. The ideology of premature cross-training stumps Aikido growth. (One thing about this: I'm strictly from the position that people are learning under a qualified instructor. If the instructor doesn't get it, it doesn't matter where you train or how many arts.)
5)You're right. I do think Aikido is the best. However, I believe that because Aikido offers a response for every situation...from staying off the ground to handling multiple attackers to handling a bad day at work.
6)No. #4 answers that.
7)LOL. Yeah, like I said, you got me. Sorry for the offense. I am close minded on it. Not trying to be an a**, but when you know you're right, that's it.

However, the only thing I claim to be right on is that you shouldn't cross-train before you're ready. And you're ready when you know your own techniques inside and out.
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Old 07-24-2005, 10:21 PM   #53
Colbs
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Kevin,

If you look on e-budo I think it was, in their close combatatives forum there was a thread a while ago on the latest (or was it the second latest, I can't remember) US Army close combat manuals, one of the authors (or someone who claimed to be one of those involved with it's creation) explained why they chose what they did.

From memory the primary reasoning was that the combination they chose would make their troops as effective as they could be with the allocated training schedule. Because most toops won't train MA outside of their units (just like police), they have a very limited total number of hours to spend with it. BJJ and it's ilk provide some very simple, highly effective means to get the upper hand on your opponent and also require *far* less practice and precision than most traditional MA to pull off on an untrained or similarly skilled opponent.

The secondary reason was that because it allowed for intense competition with few injuries it was seen as being a good way of getting units to set up competitions during training to help breed the competitve and combative mindset.

Anyway, that's how I remember it on a thread a read a fair few months ago - so it could all be bollocks (and you can't trust a thing you read on the interwebnet anyway).

IMO all arts are valid, and damned useful, grappling is a brilliant skill to have and one I will eventually get around to training (once I get a few more years of aikido under my belt - don't want to start cross training too early).

I see the ground as the last line of defense - it's where I get taken when I screw up, not a place I want to be, as such, it will never be a primary art for me, but something I train as a backup. It's similar with military stuff. If you get into a clinch or grappelling situation, as a soldier it's most likely because you or your squadmates stuffed up. I'm not a military person myself, so again, could be total bollocks I'm talking, but as I see it, the primary art of soldiers is small arms and riflery, not close quarters combatitives. If you get grappled, or have to grapple it's because you screwed up and let a threat too close before drawing arms - or because your leadership failed and put you in a position where you had no ability to draw arms.

As a last line of defence art for soldiers, ground fighting seems to me to be the perfect art. The fact that you will have others around removes part of the risk about being stuck on the ground with one enemy while others proceed to kick your head in.
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:38 AM   #54
Jorge Garcia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

In reading this thread, it is somewhat surprising to me that some of those posting don't seem to recognize the history of Aikido or what the founder, Morihei Ueshiba taught about Aikido. We have heard from some that see Aikido as the best fighting art, others that like something else like BJJ and some that want to cross train. I guess I am wondering what happened to the philosophy of Aikido for those that claim to practice it? The founder of Aikido practiced many martial arts but came to a point where he realized the futility of trying to be stronger and better than others. He understood that every warrior will fall someday. There is no such a thing as personal invincibility when it comes to fighting. I am not saying that anyone on this thread thinks there is. I am making that point to establish the philosophical premise. If that point is true, then you have to look at Aikido the way the founder did. He saw it as a way to unite people in practicing an art of peace. He philosophically establishes its invincibility in it's refusal to engage in a "fighting" spirit or in competition. Aikido is a martial way rather than a martial art. I think though that there is a philosophical theory here. That would be that the person who loses the desire to win can't be defeated. I know how terrible this sounds to all those who are looking for the very best form of self defense. Again though, the truth is that the best form of self defense is finding ways not to fight. That way, you will never find the end of yourself. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to defend yourself. There's nothing wrong with cross training. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be the best you can be. I think though that there is something wrong with a perfectionist streak that tries to establish a peace in mind and heart that the person is now trained in the ultimate and very best possible way to withstand almost any assault. That I think is an unrealistic fantasy bordered by many contingencies and factors beyond any one individuals control. It's an unfruitful way to pursue your life.
Listen friends, you don't need to become the ultimate martial artist.I don't think there is such a thing. There will always be a hundred people within arms reach that can defeat you-no matter who you are. Unfortunately, that's the truth. In martial arts, you're working with percentages and it's true that the more you know and the better you are, you have improved your percentages in surviving an assault. It's just that there are also many other things you can do, that are common sense safety tips that have nothing to do with fighting or martial arts that will shoot your percentages way up there and save you years of falsely pursuing a fantasy of invincibility that will never actually come to pass.
I like what one famous practitioner said in a documentary. He said, "Like many young boys, I got into martial arts for all the wrong reasons."
In my dojo, we train hard and we train realistically. I have had as many as 4 dojo chos of different karate styles training with me. They are all plenty tough guys. We have trained with professional football players, Navy Seals, law enforcement people, fitness people, and one of my best friends in Aikido (a nidan) has even been doing BJJ for many years now. With my advanced people, if they want to rumble and let the techniques go and want to grapple with me, we go for it while the class watches. I'm not afraid to get physical. It's just that I realized a long time ago that I can't guarantee that I or anyone else will win "fights". I am not interested in that. I don't think that's what O Sensei was all about. Carrying a hand gun or even a shotgun would probably be a better form of self defense. It would be cheaper, more efficient and your percentages would shoot straight up (No pun intended).
I personally read Kisshomaru Ueshiba's book, The Spirit of Aikido once a year.It helps me stay grounded in what Aikido really is. I'll close with a quote from a man once called the scariest man at Hombu Dojo. When he was young, most people were afraid to train with him. I happen to know that he trained realistically in private training with people of almost every martial art. He has told me many stories about that and yet, look at what he says about Aikido.

"The strength of Aikido is in embracing others.

Interviewer: What do you think about strength in Aikido?
Kato: Strength is many things, isn't it? Taking other people down is one strength. But persistence in practice, and becoming good at dealing with others, are also strengths. It is holistic, I think. It may be easier to train the body to take people down. Showing strength in Wa (peace) and Musubi (connection) is very different from that. It is more difficult to attain and requires more strength. Unless strength is found in embracing others with a full-fledged humanitarian perspective, it is not pertaining to strength in Aikido. It is important to ask oneself "What is Aikido?" and develop one's own perspective. If you choose not to fight, then why don't you do that? Searching for ultimate answers like that is a necessity in doing Aikido.
Aikido is not Kumiuchi, traditional martial techniques for fighting. If Aikido were like techniques for fighting, the way of practice itself would be totally different. But Aikido practice consists of ways to develop ourselves and each other. Of course, it is not saying that being weak is acceptable-through our experience of strength we are not tempted to fight. Aikido is not about competition. A person who has true strength does not fight.
Again, going back to the regular meetings with Sensei, on one particular day, some writers who were specializing in Japanese tales of Samurai and Shogun came to see the Founder. The authors started to talk about the technique of Sen sen no sen (responding before an attack) and Ato no sen (countering an attack). And the Founder started to say, there are no such things. In Aikido, people win even before their fight starts. He had a view of winning that encompassed everything, that makes it into oneness, and a value system that transcends the concept of winning and losing.."

Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:24 PM   #55
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jorge,

Great post! My thoughts pretty much to a tee. You can revise aikido into whatever you desire it to be, but what the founder intended it to be is what it is....it is a DO. Sure there are side benefits to the art, but as you state, to me is the essence of why you practice aikido.

Colby,

Also a good post. Thanks. I know the authors/founders of the Modern Army Combative Program, what you state above is pretty darn near on the money.

Jean,

My position is not to cross train. I could really careless if someone cross trains or not. I think Aikido is the perfect art for someone whose goals are to study "the way of AI, KI". If that is your goal no need to cross train. However, if you are overly concerned with Self defense, "combat effectiveness" (i hate that phrase)...then my point is this...find another art that focuses on those aspects...aikido is a waste of time for you. To me self defense training is 1. Risk awareness/reduction. 2. Learning to effectively leverage yourself through security, weapons (lethal/non lethal). ...It is time and money better spent if you live in this world.

My point is not about cross training, but not making aikido into something it is not...study it for what it is and what it offers...(see Jorge's post).

What recommendations did I make? Other than "make sure you understand WHY you are training and study those things that best fit those goals".

Many people in aikido are confused as to why they are training, just as many people wander aimlessly through their day working jobs they hate, and not beiing fullfilled as humans beings. We overeat, over drink, and distract ourselves with entertainment etc to make up for that void.

All I am saying is "look inward and outward" make sure you are aligned correctly.

I guess I would disagree with you that aikido has an answer for every situation. It has answers for the situations the founder wanted it to have answers for...(see Jorge's post).
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:37 PM   #56
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

If you say so, Kevin.

I know one thing. The phrase I've heard over and over is: One attack, one technique.

Someone attacks you, we train to stop their attack with one technique (not roll around on the ground or exchange punches--stop them). At the same time, we train to be better people. Ueshiba said it was a MA...it's a MA. That's what Aikido is.
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:42 PM   #57
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

One other thing I know...Aikido will keep you off the ground if you know what you're doing.
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Old 07-25-2005, 06:14 PM   #58
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
If you say so, Kevin.

I know one thing. The phrase I've heard over and over is: One attack, one technique.

Someone attacks you, we train to stop their attack with one technique (not roll around on the ground or exchange punches--stop them).
That pretty much cuts to the heart of what this thread is about. Just because that's the way we train in the dojo don't kid yourself that that's how you should be fighting. In fact I tell my guys that it's only when they screw up and have to start bouncing between techniques that they actually start doing aikido. Our training method creates a type of fiction. One attack one technique is an ideal - if you think that that's what you'll be doing consistantly in reality against a true bad guy - you've fallen victim to exactly the exagerration under discussion.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2005, 06:16 PM   #59
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
One other thing I know...Aikido will keep you off the ground if you know what you're doing.
What if you slip on an uneven or wet surface. What if you're sucker punched and don't know you're in a fight until you're on the ground. What if there's several of them? There's a heap of situations which can have you end up on the ground before even getting to the "what if your technique doesn't work as well as you think it does" part of the discussion.
You've said previously that Aikido has an answer to every situation. "don't be on the ground" isn't an answer to the ground question any more than "don't fight multiples" is an answer to multiple attackers.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-25-2005, 07:57 PM   #60
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Micheal Fooks.

"if you think that that's what you'll be doing consistently in reality against a true bad guy - you've fallen victim to exactly the exaggeration under discussion." Thanks for steering the thread back to the main point, which is "exaggeration in Aikido." Allot of the responses to the thread actually use exaggeration to defend against the exaggeration of Aikido. Funny? I love Aikido, but why not keep it real(not to say most don't)? I guess to some people, they both like, and feel that they are invincible to multiple, and or bigger attackers! They truly seem to believe ending up on the ground just isn't much of a reality to be concerned with?
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:10 PM   #61
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I'd like to think it's a training maturity thing and everyone will grow out of it, but then I look around and realise that that's not the case. I clearly remember when I was the same, thought that the theory of Aikido was such that it should be able to handle *anything*. But of course that's not how it works in the real world.
I'm with you, I love aikido, wouldn't stop it for the world. But I'm also realistic about what it is and isn't designed to be used for. And also conscious that all of the initial big names generally had extensive experience in other arts.
Jean said don't cross train until you've got Aikido 100% down - but seems to have a circular argument that if you think there's a gap it means you haven't got it down. So you should only cross train when you decide you don't need to? Anyway I digress. My point is I'm more in the other camp that says perhaps the best approach for Aikido is to come to it with a grounding in another art that gives you a reisistance and alive model foundation to add the finesse of Aikido to. I didn't do that so I'm having to go back and add that in retrospectively.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-26-2005, 07:10 AM   #62
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I mostly agree with that Michael. Having a really good teacher and access to several others is the best approach.

In the absence of a really good teacher, (maybe just average joes) then I also think the order in which you learn martial arts depends on what level of emotional maturity you are at when you want to start as well. For the majority of the young bucks starting out (again in the absence of a really good teacher), I would like for them to start out in any art that stresses taking it before learning how to dish it out. Aikido is a good one, but there are others like Goju karate. [A really good teacher can of course teach anything and help you learn it in a way that is good for you.] I would like to see more people develop a strong mind of choice to not to harm (meaning they actually have ability to do harm and make the conscious choice not to do so). If we just turn out martial artists who only know how to do maximum damage, you have to wonder if you are sending these people out into the world with a foregone conclusion (justified by something like: 'but only if they push me to far').

My hope is that the people training aikido to continue their martial arts development slowly but surely continue to work towards more and more resistance training and more sophistocated attacks (in a level appropriate way of course). I'm playing around with such things and it's darn difficult to keep my posture, maintain the space I want, and know when to abandon that approach. I don't (personally) wish I learned such things in a different order.

Rob
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:29 AM   #63
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Rob Liberti,

Yes, a good teacher is the most important! And I guess a good teacher would not fill your head with the idea you will be invincible.

Last edited by Roy : 07-26-2005 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:16 AM   #64
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Micheal Fooks: If you're "bouncing from technique to technique" it's because you're trying to think about what technique you're going to use...go back to the dojo and do some kata...because you failed by not practicing enough.

If you slip on the groud, do a roll. If you're sucker punched, absorb the strike and apply the appropriate technique. If you fail to do either of these...go back to the dojo and do some kata...because you failed by not practicing enough.

Regarding "training fiction" in the dojo. Yeah, that's right. Because when push comes to shove, your moves will be tighter that what you trained for because of pressue. We train with big sweeping techniques to compensate for that...I know, I've used it in real life.

Aikido answers the question "what do I do on the ground" by saying "it's irrelevant." That's because, if you really practiced, you'll never be there. The only way a person will take you to the ground is if they offer their balance...if you can't take it when it's offered...go back to the dojo and do some kata...because you failed by not practicing enough.

Same thing with wet surfaces, etc. When you train, it's an exercise in awareness of your surroundings. If you fail to recognize your surroundings...go back to the dojo...you know the rest.

All this, of course, is my interpretation. If anything, this position only serves to limit the definition of Aikido. In all reality, I think it's probably way larger than what I've described...way beyond this.

Roy Leclair: I think being on the ground is a reality to be concerned with...that's why I train to not let it happen.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-26-2005 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:44 AM   #65
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Dear Jean De Rochefort,

Because of lack of clearness, every-time I read your posts I can't decide if you are actually taking part of the thread constructively, or if you are just bragging. So, if I'm right, and correct me if I am wrong, you are saying that, its right to say to new beginners that Aikido will make them be able to take on multiple attackers, and or bigger attackers? You are also saying that doing a bunch of kata and training better will again make you be able to take on multiple attackers, and or bigger attackers? Granted, I realize that you do say at the end of most of your threads that this is just your personal opinion. Either way, you have a right to your opinion, and it would be no more wrong or wright to any other opinion. But, I'm compelled to ask you a few questions if I may. How long have you been training, and in what styles? And is it possible you are perhaps compelled to believe the exaggeration described in this thread?
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:05 PM   #66
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jean,

I wish there was a way I could get with you and help you break through some paradigms and misconceptions I believe you have. (in a good way, not vindictive or mean spirited).

I had many of the same misconceptions about karate and aikido with lethal punches and techniques to one irimi/tenkan etc....certainly it is ideal and something to strive for...but unfortunately when you cross the line into reality it does not typically hold water.

I used to have the same notions about balance and standing up until I started working with some really good ground fighters, who also btw are better and stand up aiki techniques than I am.

As a response to the other post..to add....

O'Sensei I don't believed ever professed to turn anyone into the ultimate martial artist, but into a good human being in so many words. He describes aikido as a "path" uses words such as "seek"...no where does he mention an endstate or offer a guarantee or say that it is the only way. If he does, I really would love for someone to show me that!
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:15 PM   #67
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Michael,

I was reading through one of your earlier post. It can be both helpful and harmful to have a background in another art. I had a decent karate background before coming to aikido, so I was already a decent martial artist...but I was (still are) in many respects a poor aikidoka. I had to push hard through some paradigms and habits to establish new ones...I had to reprogram many of my intuitions (still do).

So I don't think it is necessary to study another art to be a good aikidoka if that is your goal, and a very worthwhile one!

However, I believe if you endstate is something other than that, then you may want to consider other arts as well.

I agree, most of the aikidoka, sensei, shihan I have respect for seem to have a breadth of experience outside of aikido. I think it allows them to respond correctly to things/attacks that fall outside of the realm/paradigm of traditional Aikido.

I would never advise, or not advise anyone to cross train not knowing them very well. It really is an individual thing. It might be very confusing and harmful to some, but right for others!

Again, that is why I say you must really look hard at WHY you want ot study martial arts or specifically aikido.
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:06 PM   #68
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Kevin, which misconceptions?

Roy, where was I not clear? Yeah, sometimes, I reread something I wrote and I have to think about what I meant...then I have to totally restate it so I understand it.

I think I'm taking part constructive...I'm trying to help construct the idea that dojo time is the only thing that'll give you the real answers.

I'm saying, that it's okay to tell beginners that Aikido offers the framework that could make you able to take on whoever/whatever. However, the whether or not you (the beginner we're talking to) have what it takes to do that...who's to say....but Aikido is the framework.

Regarding kata...same answer as above. Whether or not an individuat can get there, I don't know. However, I do know that kata is that framework.


With regards to my training, considering the last question, it appears to me that you're attacking me. Therefore, I've only responded to the Aikido related questions.
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:35 PM   #69
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I'm not sure its an attack, I think its more a request for context. Strong statements deserve the appropriate context.

For example: I say I can whoop anyone on this board (People who've met me start to snicker), but I don't say why I think that. Now, if I'd trained in boxing at the golden gloves level, wrestled in division 1 during college, and now train in aikido 6 to 7 times a week for 2 to 3 hours for the last 10 years...and weigh 200 pounds...people might not hesitate to believe I'd do pretty good at whooping board members.

But since the most boxing experience was in gym class, some kickboxing and back yard stuff, the wresling was Div. 3 (and I stunk), I train about 2 to 3 times a week tops most of the time now, and I don't weigh 200 pounds, no, the context doesn't support the statement.

Ron (aw shucks)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:46 PM   #70
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Misconceptions such as aikido has all the answers for "real life".

That ground fighitng is invalidated through good balance and posture that you learn in aikido.

That you can rely on "one shot, one kill" in real life through training properly.

I would agree with you in theory..but once you cross into "real life" I say all bets are off. That is all.
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:51 PM   #71
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
I'm saying, that it's okay to tell beginners that Aikido offers the framework that could make you able to take on whoever/whatever. However, the whether or not you (the beginner we're talking to) have what it takes to do that...who's to say....but Aikido is the framework.
Yea, maybe the framework...but framework is a long way from reality. I'd personally say this:

1. what is "reality" in your perception.
2. Why do you want or need to train for this reality.
3. Aikido is a DO art, therefore meant to use martial arts as a methodology to convey the way of aiki...not learn how to fight based on your reality. Skill gained are secondary. If "reality" fighting is your primary goal, then find another art that makes it the primary goal.

There are much better ways to learn to destroy, hurt, or whoop up on somebody than the Way of Harmony and peace.
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Old 07-26-2005, 04:59 PM   #72
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jean wrote; "Yeah? Funny, I have yet to see a Judoka or BJJer move as fast across area as I do...with balance under control."

I apologies you felt you were being attacked. I am just trying to figure out were you are at in matial arts, to make claims like the one above, that all. Allot of your posts make sense, but I'm just wondering what experience you have to be so sure of yourself? I'm guessing you must be at least a 2nd degree?
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:19 PM   #73
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Micheal Fooks: If you're "bouncing from technique to technique" it's because you're trying to think about what technique you're going to use
Actually it's the exact opposite of that.
Quote:
...go back to the dojo and do some kata...because you failed by not practicing enough.

If you slip on the groud, do a roll.
Rolls work when there's momentum in a certain direction. A slip tends to be straight down. Certainly ukemi will help but not let you bounce back to your feet like Jackie Chan. Particularly in a crowded environment. You're stretching here.
Quote:
If you're sucker punched, absorb the strike and apply the appropriate technique.
Absorb the strike? Do you know what a sucker punch is? Do you really think that if the first you know of a fight is the fist impacting your jaw you'll always be able to stay on your feet.
But I forgot, you've developed Spider Sense by all your good training.
Quote:
If you fail to do either of these...go back to the dojo and do some kata...because you failed by not practicing enough.
Ok you've said that enough times to make it cute. But given that you've opened the door here on training time being the issue, why not clue us in to how long you've been training.
Quote:

Aikido answers the question "what do I do on the ground" by saying "it's irrelevant." That's because, if you really practiced, you'll never be there. The only way a person will take you to the ground is if they offer their balance...if you can't take it when it's offered...go back to the dojo and do some kata...because you failed by not practicing enough.
Have you actually put this to the test against a wrestler, or *anyone* outside the confines of your dojo? Where does this faith come from?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:05 AM   #74
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Hi Again Jean
I've just happened across your introduction post from earlier this year which has answered a couple of our questions. Specifically I see you've been training 3-4 years and list as one of your reasons to train the ability to fight. That raises a couple of questions in my mind.
1. When the people who are telling you they beleive Aikido is not a magic bullet have significantly more training experience, do you think telling them that their beliefs come from not enough trainng is really a sensible approach?
2. Given that you've said you're doing aikido for fighting purposes, wouldn't it make sense to look at other fighers and what they are doing. Maybe have a friendly knockabout with a wrestler or judoka to get a feel for what it feels like to face attacks from people with a different approach.

Please understand I'm not trying to attack you personally. I know where you're coming from. After 3 years training I know I held similar beliefs. But then I started talking, and more importantly listening to more people outside Aikdo and decided to give something else a go. What I found
1. Those early beliefs I had about how fighting works in theory, had only a passing resemblence to reality.
2. Cross training helped my Aikido immensely
3. Cross training if anything, increased my love for Aikido

I think there's alot of people in the Aikido community who are scared of cross training becuase they think it will take away from aikido. I strongly disagree - done properly it enhances it enourmously.
I've given alot of thought to how Aikido training methods might be changed to offer more resistance, more aliveness etc. The conclusion I've come to is that they can't. Aikido can never have a sparring component like Judo or BJJ without sacrificing much of what it is. (cue shudothugs). But that's all right, the techniques can still be effective. The thing is though they are much more likely to be if the artist in question has also trained ina sparring art. I'm finally starting to get what people mean when they talk about "alive" arts being able to give you a delivery system for techniques that have not been trained with "aliveness"

In summary, please don't think we're beating up on you. Many of us have been where you are, and we're just trying to save you some of the time it took us to start to understand how the theory works in the real world.

Last edited by Aristeia : 07-27-2005 at 12:09 AM.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:09 AM   #75
dyffcult
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Re:Exaggeration in Aikido

Haven't read every response to this post, but skimmed most of them...

The question is exaggeration of instructors regarding what aikido training can or cannot provide.

I think that with the right instructor and the proper time (and the explanation by the instructor of the proper time), aikido can allow the lessor weight/strength person overcome a greater weight/strength opponent. All a matter of mastering technique -- and the time that it takes to master that technique.

(In other words, I am a firm believer that aikido is a masterful martial art, capable of handling all situations, but I also understand that the learning curve for aikido is far longer than most other martial arts....)

Once again, haven't read every response to this post....

The following is offered from my own perception. My original sensei may have different recollections of what he told me. Take it with the proverbial grain of salt.... (BTW, Patrick Cassidy sensei taught Iwama-style aikido at the time....I don't know his affiliation anymore as I have been unlucky enough not to train with him for over 15 years.)

I had wanted to study a martial art since my earliest memories, probably since at least fifth grade (9 years old roughly). However, since I was old enough to afford such training, I recognized a very martial aspect in myself. I did not want to exacerbate that trait, but moderate it. I was lucky enough to encounter a young man who could offer me "soft" training in the martial arts -- in other words, one that focused on defense and self rather than attack and defeat.

My first sensei never told me that I would be able to defeat those larger and stronger than I. He did emphasis however, that strength in aikido was not a requirement. A technique properly performed by the smallest and weakest of students can still break the center and control the largest and strongest of opponents. He never stated that it would be quick or easy. In fact, he indicated that the average student takes three months of dedicated practice before they have their first "ah ha" moment on their first technique (tai-no-henko). This is not to say that the student understood the technique...only that the student had his or her first "ah ha" recognizing a bit of understanding about the technique.

However, he did state that once one learns the basics, and their body learns the techniques, aikido does become a true defense technique, regardless of the size of the opponent. I agree.

Of course, I probably never would have gone to watch that first demonstration if he had not told me that Aikido was a "peaceful" martial art. I knew my own tendencies, and although I had wanted to train in a martial art since I was a kid, I knew that any aggressive art would only exacerbate my combative tenancies. I had wanted to train for over ten years before I met Patrick. Patrick struck me as peace incarnate at the time. He described aikido as something I could embrace -- an art of peace, but a truly martial art. Something I later learned he practiced with great enthusiasm, passion, and emotion -- something he embraced physically -- and spiritually.

Patrick always preached the peaceful aspects of aikido, but stressed its self-defense capabilities with proper devotion and study. I learned this myself. On more than one occasion, I have used my aikido to "control" a situation, where pre-aikido, I might have tried to bead the crap out of someone -- or simply would have shot them had the situation presented.

For most of my time in my US dojo, my favorite practice partner was a six foot plus police officer. I loved throwing his ass all over the mat -- mainly because he was a great uke -- he always gave a good attack and always tried to resist my techniques. If I wasn't doing the technique right with this guy, I couldn't do the technique. I am five foot five and at the time the guy probably outweighed me by forty pounds. He was male. I was female. I have no doubt that he could out bench press me on any given day of the week. Yet I could control him, break his center, and implement whatever lock the technique called for....all with his proper resistence. So yes, a properly trained aikidoka can take down a larger, stronger opponent.

I have also used aikido in real life situations against men far larger and stronger than I. Sometimes against two such opponents (BTW, I was ranked 2nd kyu at the time and had not practiced for over ten years.) Luckily for these other persons, I studied aikido. They walked away with new things to think about rather than being taken out on a stretcher. I controlled the situation and gave them the opportunity to walk away -- using aikido. [i.e. I was at a KISS concert when some idiot (six foot plus) felt the need to be belligerent to every person (particularly another six foot plus) in his vicinity. After about the third body slam, I turned around, had him face first onto the ground and into a wrist lock and his opponent by the throat. (While not aikido, long nails do have their advantage in certain techniques.) I asked them if they were through being pains in the ass and they both agreed to behave. I enjoyed the rest of the concert.]

I don't think that the problem lies with an instructor telling students that such things are possible -- for they are. The problem lies more with whether the teacher can teach such techniques properly and whether they explain to the potential student that they will require extensive training before the use of aikido will prove useful in a real life situation.

As a final comment, I was taught that a black belt in aikido meant that the student was finally serious about the art. (I assume that means that they grasp certain basic techniques, but that they don't truly "know" them body and soul.) The gift of the black belt was simply a recognition that one was devoted to the art and that one would continue to train and learn the art. Not until the nidan was there an understanding that the student truly understood anything -- and then only just.

Okay, final comment..... I do believe that those serious about aikido should not cross train until secure with their technique. I tried a judo class and could not fall like they wanted me to, could not execute technique like they wanted me to. I kept doing aikido technique and aikido ukemi. My body simply responded in certain ways no matter how hard I tried to do what they wanted. (And that whole thing about female students having to wear a t-shirt rather than a tank under the keikogi just drove me nuts when the me were allowed to wear nothing....in the 100+ degree heat.) However, this is just my opinion on cross training and others may have had different results and accordingly different opinions.
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