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Old 02-26-2006, 05:52 PM   #251
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Sure, sure. Then I suppose I'm also vulnerable to being under attack by twenty dwarves while standing on one foot under a table.

LOL. Your posts are still dull. You still shouldn't be giving out advice.

Unfortunately, all the details are there to be discovered...not explained. Go practice and think really hard about this stuff. Maybe you'll get it one day.
Ok if you prefer it in context here it is. Here's how the above looks to me. You've likened preparing for adapting to unpredictability and chaos in a fight to preparing for "being attacked by twenty dwarves while standing on one foot under a table"

This leads me to believe one of two things must be true.
a) You're simple
b) You consider unpredictability and chaos in a fighting context to be an unlikely occurance - as unlikely as your example. So unlikely that it's not worth training for.

I'm going to assume you're not simple. Which leaves us with b), which tells me you don't know a whole lot about fighting. Go and practice *fighting* with people who train to *fight* and you'll maybe get it one day.


How was that, better?

Last edited by Aristeia : 02-26-2006 at 06:00 PM.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:37 PM   #252
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Ok if you prefer it in context here it is. Here's how the above looks to me. You've likened preparing for adapting to unpredictability and chaos in a fight to preparing for "being attacked by twenty dwarves while standing on one foot under a table"

This leads me to believe one of two things must be true.
a) You're simple
b) You consider unpredictability and chaos in a fighting context to be an unlikely occurance - as unlikely as your example. So unlikely that it's not worth training for.

I'm going to assume you're not simple. Which leaves us with b), which tells me you don't know a whole lot about fighting. Go and practice *fighting* with people who train to *fight* and you'll maybe get it one day.


How was that, better?
Yes, much better.

My reason for not explicity explaining my rationale is that I'm not in the business of giving away the knowledge that I've worked long and hard for. What am I going to do? Explain a few secrets to convince you? What for? You, apparently, can't even get what I'm saying with techniques...If you can't grasp that, you definitely couldn't grasp the rest of it (grasp/believe whatever).

I figure you're either 1)not under the tutelage of a knowledgable teacher, 2)you don't put the effort into it that is needed for you to understand, or 3)you've proven yourself to your instructor to not be a suitable recipient of direction. Whether any is the case or not, I could care less, but I know I'm not going to give you what you're not getting from the proper source.


As for the "chaotic nature" of physical confrontation. I've been in plenty of situations throughout my life. Aikido's there through all of it...Even on the ground...atleast...that's my experience.

I forgot...As for "knowing someone"...Yes. Several. However, I'm anticipating this one as a set-up...so, suffice to say, the above is the response for this one also...


BTW: This is in response to you too Ignatios.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 02-28-2006 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:52 PM   #253
tarik
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
My reason for not explicity explaining my rationale is that I'm not in the business of giving away the knowledge that I've worked long and hard for.
I've always found that an odd position to take although many people I know and respect take it. Anything I could possibly have in the way of knowledge is free for those interested in it, although, frankly, I don't know why anyone would be interested in anything *I* know, since I know such a small fraction right now.

However, the only productive way to interact here is to discuss and explain, and in my case, disagreements and discussions have led to many fruitful meetings and a a great deal of learning.

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
What am I going to do? Explain a few secrets to convince you? What for? You, apparently, can't even get what I'm saying with techniques...If you can't grasp that, you definitely couldn't grasp the rest of it (grasp/believe whatever).
Certainly sometimes giving away knowledge is useless since the person you are giving it to is not in a position to comprehend it. Sometimes it's the explanation that is lacking instead.

It's all a matter of time and perspective.

Secrets? Honestly, most of the secrets in life and the martial arts are right up front and clear as day. It's understanding them and applying to discipline to assimilate them into your existence that is tough.

Regards,

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
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MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-28-2006, 05:24 PM   #254
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

heh heh. There are no "secrets" in martial arts. Only good training. You've worked long and hard to get these secrets? How long was that again? I have to wonder, if your philosophy is to keep your knowledge so close to your chest and not give it away, then what are you doing on the forum. It seems you're happy to put forth very strong and some would say conceited views, but when challenged resort back to "well I'm not going to tell you because you're not worthy nyah nyah" Which is it, you want to contribute to the discussion and further knowledge or you don't.

As for knowing someone capbable of performing technique infallibly each and every time - not so much a set up. I personally think such a claim is ridiculous. But as you've previously implied that "doing" aikido properly may not be something anyone is currently capable of, I just was curious which particular sillyness was behind the latest comments - the belief that someone can be infallible, or the belief that the value of aikido lies in a faraway land no one can ever reach.

As for Aikido being present in real life situations - no doubt. We just have different ideas as to what Aikido looks like and how it should be trained.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:36 AM   #255
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

a) have you seen each other's aikido? I was under the impression that we were going off of written descriptions, so that would not be possible. I could be mistaken; David Valedez has posted video of himself doing waza and exercises, so at least there we have something somewhat concrete to go on.

b) Jean, I still don't get your attitude sometimes...that's probably my issue, not yours.

c) Someone I respect told me once that aikido has no secrets...but some things are for personal transmission only. So in a class or one to one setting, it's not a secret. But he wouldn't discuss *some* things openly on the web, for instance.

d) It is a fine line you walk when deciding when to use that for cover, and when that is a legitimate position to take. Right now...it looks like cover.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:46 AM   #256
Michael Neal
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

as for the Pizza Parlor Guy, if you want to be able to handle a guy that big you need to build your strength pure and simple. I am able to throw someone with seionage who weighs around 300lbs by doing deadlifts on a routine basis. I am pretty sure I could have thrown him with a seionage variation called seiotoshi which requires much less strength, once on his back he would be pretty much helpless with a knee on belly pin.

all of this is theoretical of course but I have thrown someone that big before and they knew Judo

Last edited by Michael Neal : 03-01-2006 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:04 PM   #257
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
heh heh. There are no "secrets" in martial arts. .
Your memory that short? I thought we just blew briefly over that one in another thread.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Only good training. You've worked long and hard to get these secrets? How long was that again? .
I'd say approximately 3,650 hrs. Give or take a couple hundred.

Approx. one quarter in mat time; a little over a quarter solo training; about half book studies.

That doesn't include time spent thinking (focusing) on techniques/movements beyond that.


Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I have to wonder, if your philosophy is to keep your knowledge so close to your chest and not give it away, then what are you doing on the forum. .
I offer a little guidance and a different perspective to others. Check my history.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
It seems you're happy to put forth very strong and some would say conceited views, but when challenged resort back to "well I'm not going to tell you because you're not worthy nyah nyah" .
I'd say as it applies to Aikido, I'm convinced of it's potential. I'd say of myself, that of experienced enough to know that I can handle some situations. Conceited? No. That's a misperception of those "some" you refer to.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Which is it, you want to contribute to the discussion and further knowledge or you don't..
Again, check my history.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
As for knowing someone capbable of performing technique infallibly each and every time - not so much a set up. I personally think such a claim is ridiculous. But as you've previously implied that "doing" aikido properly may not be something anyone is currently capable of, I just was curious which particular sillyness was behind the latest comments - the belief that someone can be infallible, or the belief that the value of aikido lies in a faraway land no one can ever reach.
Exactly, it's impossible to "know" someone could do it infallibly everytime. I figured that to be the set-up. As for the next set-up in that argument...I'll skip that one too.
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:12 PM   #258
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
a) have you seen each other's aikido? I was under the impression that we were going off of written descriptions, so that would not be possible. I could be mistaken; David Valedez has posted video of himself doing waza and exercises, so at least there we have something somewhat concrete to go on.

d) It is a fine line you walk when deciding when to use that for cover, and when that is a legitimate position to take. Right now...it looks like cover.
A)We'd need to see each other's to say if our techniques were good or bad. However, I'm pretty certain that you can tell by what someone's saying if they do or don't get it.

D)That's interesting. It's just like Aikido...It looks like one thing, but it's so much more
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Old 03-01-2006, 04:47 PM   #259
James Kelly
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I've never heard anyone of rank say stuff like "if you miss this entry, then..."
I have, often. Shihan in fact. O Sensei's Uchideshi even.

But the truth is, everyone knows that only the Pope is infallible. Paul VI decreed it so himself (I think it was Paul VI, he changed his mind a lot).
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:40 PM   #260
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

The argument of the bigger guy always having the advantage can always be made. If in your mind, bigger is better, then you will never win. You might as well quit whatever MA you are doing and buy a hand gun and get a concealed weapons permit! If you think there is a chance, keep training and keep searching like the rest of us!!

Nathan Snow
Michigan
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:07 PM   #261
Keith R Lee
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:

I'd say approximately 3,650 hrs. Give or take a couple hundred.

Approx. one quarter in mat time; a little over a quarter solo training; about half book studies.

That doesn't include time spent thinking (focusing) on techniques/movements beyond that.
That is a really unusual way of saying how long you've been training.

3650 hours.

1825 hours in book studies? Not sure what that's really about. I mean, I've read lots of martial arts, philosophy, and science books that have made me think different about my training, but I don't consider them "training time" per se.

So that leaves us with 1825 hours to training. And half of this is "solo" training and half "on the mat?" I presume solo training to be like kata or something done not in the dojo or gym??? Regardless, that leaves us with 912.5 hours of training time on the mat with a partner.

I'd say that a bare minimum training week would be 6 hours a week. Either 2 three hour training days, or 3 two hour training days. Also, lets presume you go to every class and never miss. That would give us 288 hours a year. Lets say you trained a little bit extra a couple times and round it up to an even 300 hours a year. (I'll admit, I'm leaving off seminars, and training on the weekends and the like, which I presume most serious Aikido/MA enthusiasts do. But I'm trying to establish a base average here.)

With that being the case: 912.5/300=3.04

Essentially, from the information you've provided us, you've spent three years on the mat. Is this exclusivly in Aikido as well? I haven't followed this thread or your posts that carefully. But from the way you seem to be acting I think that's probably the case. In my experience, three years isn't that long of a time to be training. Especially to claim to have gained some sort of proficiency in fighting/martial arts that justifies making authoritative claims.

Or maybe you've been training longer, but less frequently? But that would just make matters worse. There is of course, the claim that it is not the time but the intensity. I think it's a true statement but even with that being the case, three years (at only 6 hours a week) is still not that much time, even with intensive training.

All that's there to say: easy up on the definitive statements about something as ambiguous as fighting. Also, keep an open mind because there are some people on the board with more experience in Aikido, and other martial arts than you. A LOT more. Maybe what they have to say is worth consideration as well, y'know?

Keith Lee
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:09 PM   #262
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

ROTFL.... when I read Keith's post and glanced a the topic title, it suddenly became clear....

Ignatius
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:12 AM   #263
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

particularly in light of this
Quote:
I offer a little guidance and a different perspective to others.
Nope, no conceit there :-)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:37 AM   #264
eyrie
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Oh, no, I just thought it was funny as hell, that's all.... an exaggeration of sorts. Perhaps Jean simply understated the number of hours...??? Or Keith's calculation is totally off....??? I dunno, my math stinks.... where's my calc?

If you consider this hypothesis, in Donald Norman's 1993 book "Things That Make Us Smart: Defending human attributes in the age of the machine", Addison-Wesley, he states (unscientifically and unsubstantiated!) that it takes an average person roughly 5000 hours to become proficient in some sort of manual skill of average complexity and degree of difficulty.

Let's say the person works at it for 10 hours a day, 300 days a year for 2 years, well 10x300x2=6000, so a person could quite legitimately become proficient in a manual skill within a 1.5 to 2 years. (This makes a strong case for having a year long intensive uchi deshi program...)

So the casual enthusiast working out 6 hours a week, 40 weeks a year (240 hours a year), will need just over 20-21 years to become proficient.

Let's give Jean the benefit of the doubt, let's be fair and include study time in the totality of what we do, I'd say at 3650 hours, he'd be pushing close to 15-20 years in aikido study, assuming he is a casual enthusiast without any prior experience.

I can understand if he would rather not share his "hard earned secrets", but I can't say I agree with it. I don't think that sort of attitude serves the art nor this forum. But I could be wrong.... OR maybe you need to pay him a lot of money to show you're genuine and then maybe he'll still tell you to go practice...and maybe in 10-20 years you'll get it. I dunno....

Ignatius
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:09 PM   #265
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:
I have, often. Shihan in fact. O Sensei's Uchideshi even.

But the truth is, everyone knows that only the Pope is infallible. Paul VI decreed it so himself (I think it was Paul VI, he changed his mind a lot).
Cite the source. I'm sure, by considering context, we'll find a meeting place on the issue.

No one's saying that a person is infallible. Only that infallibility is a part of a pure Aikido technique.

It's sort of like when Mike Tyson was big. Everyone I've ever known always loved to watch him fight. However, although he was in a boxing match, anyone I've heard who seemed familiar would always say that he's a "brawler, not a boxer" because he didn't demonstrate a lot of technical skill.


Quote:
Keith R Lee wrote:
That is a really unusual way of saying how long you've been training.
Yeah, it is unusual. When I first started training, everyone at the lower ranks always asked "what rank are you" when they wanted to get an idea of your experience. Then, as I trained a little while, the people who seemed to grasp a little more would ask "how long have you been training." Then, after I started to watch a lot closer, I noticed a lot of people trained ten years twice a week with occasional lay-offs, while others trained five years every single day.

So, I've come to conclude that rank--because of the variety of reasons people are promoted within organizations--seems to have relatively little in regard to technical and practical significance, and length of time training in the typical number of years, for the reason stated above, means little to gauge a persons understanding, I offered a slightly better answer.

However, in reality, the question of training is simply a personal swipe. If that made a bit of difference, I could simply cite someone with a strong rep. Then, you'd shut up? I doubt it...You still wouldn't get it.

And I know you don't get it because of your lack of understanding about instruction--book or instructor--and solo training. Hmmmm I think it was K. Ueshiba who wrote that solo was necessary...but whatever, I doubt you'll get it with that either.

Just for you, I train an hour a day, nearly everyday. For between four and five years. There's been periods where I trained much more, periods--due to injury--where I've trained less...and the studying really came into play. It was dedicated Aikido for this period of time.


Quote:
Keith R Lee wrote:
All that's there to say: easy up on the definitive statements about something as ambiguous as fighting. Also, keep an open mind because there are some people on the board with more experience in Aikido, and other martial arts than you. A LOT more. Maybe what they have to say is worth consideration as well, y'know?
I think I'm right about the statements on fighting. No matter what, there's a limited number of attacks and responses...we live in a finite world. So, physically, fighting isn't ambiguos--It's clear as a bell...but in the end...it's just my opinion.

On the second half of the paragraph...I'll keep an open mind to those who prove they know something. You'll notice if you check my history, there's plenty of instances of me dropping out of threads because someone said something that made sense.

You wouldn't spend much time listening to a janitor's perspective on the economy unless he demonstrated some real understanding, right? This is the same thing. When someone demo's it, I'll consider it.

Quote:
Fooks wrote:
Nope, no conceit there :-)
Yeah, that's really unfounded confidence: I've been training for years and I have a perspective. Or is it that I express a group of opinions that I find to be reaffirmed everytime I read something by masters?

LOL. Get over it Fooks.


Quote:
eyrie wrote:
OR maybe you need to pay him a lot of money to show you're genuine and then maybe he'll still tell you to go practice
They weren't handed to me on a silver platter. So, I imagine that it's not right to pass them on a silver platter. Further, they're not mine. I'd say, if anything, they're the property of my instructors...and they're the property of their instructors. I don't know why I found things out...or why any of them were kind enough to give me the guidance they did. But, I do know that it's not things to be thrown around indiscriminately.

That's why, if you read through my posts, I only cite books or interviews for guidance to others (Yeah, Fooks, quoting...Wow, how conceided.) and I always offer my rudimentary experience that started me on the path.


Honestly, this is like dealing with a bunch of catty women (no offense non-catty women). Get over it ladies. If you disagree, that's the end of it. Your experience is different.

End of story...here we go...

Aikido has been demonstrated to me and experienced by me in such a way that I recognize the principals as being capable of being applied correctly and inescapable when applied correctly.

In watching, studying (books, demos) and practicing other MAs, I've recognized that the same principals are throughout all of them.

I haven't been exposed to ALL movements or all MAs. I've been exposed enough, and have the ability to see consistencies in the, movements to lead me to believe that these things are universal.

Am I wrong? Some of you think so. That's okay. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

So what? Let's all get over it.

As stated earlier: Aikido is a platform. Is it infallibe? I believe so. You do not.

Why is there anything else to say?
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Old 03-03-2006, 04:50 PM   #266
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
So, I've come to conclude that rank--because of the variety of reasons people are promoted within organizations--seems to have relatively little in regard to technical and practical significance, and length of time training in the typical number of years, for the reason stated above, means little to gauge a persons understanding, I offered a slightly better answer.
Anyone else get the impression Jean will change his views on this once he's got 10 years in and a black belt...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-04-2006, 01:47 AM   #267
eyrie
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Look guys, give the man a break... he's entitled to his views and opinions as much as anyone else is.... rank has nothing to do with it, but I'm sure his attitude may change over time, as all of us do, or it won't. Either way, you can choose not to pay heed to his rantings, or you can choose to hear what he says....

* salt shaker at the ready *

Ignatius
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Old 03-18-2006, 05:17 PM   #268
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Ohhhh, catty-women...come and feel the shame!!!

Seems "Advanced Aikido" by Phong Thong Dang and Lynn Seiser has reaffirmed my position!!!

LOL. I love to win.
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Old 03-19-2006, 01:15 AM   #269
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Errrm.....what is it you think you've won exactly?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-19-2006, 01:20 PM   #270
James Kelly
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Cite the source. I'm sure, by considering context, we'll find a meeting place on the issue.
Terry Dobson Sensei
Saotome Sensei
Ikeda Sensei
Chiba Sensei
Ken Nisson Sensei
Paul Kang Sensei
Chris Jordan Sensei
Mark Adachi Sensei
Can't think of a specific time Yamada Sensei or Sugano Sensei said same, but i'd have to ask them.
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Old 03-19-2006, 04:26 PM   #271
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:
Terry Dobson Sensei
Saotome Sensei
Ikeda Sensei
Chiba Sensei
Ken Nisson Sensei
Paul Kang Sensei
Chris Jordan Sensei
Mark Adachi Sensei
Can't think of a specific time Yamada Sensei or Sugano Sensei said same, but i'd have to ask them.
Which book, paper, interview, etc.

The reason I say to cite the source is that I think for the most part, the topics contingent on slight variations in terms/definitions. I believe once the specific use is recognized, the case will be that we're all in agreement.
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:24 AM   #272
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Which book, paper, interview, etc.
.
Perhaps it was actually on the mat?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-20-2006, 11:31 AM   #273
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Perhaps it was actually on the mat?
Then I don't think it'd be suitable to cite in this instance.
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:03 PM   #274
James Kelly
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Which book, paper, interview, etc.

The reason I say to cite the source is that I think for the most part, the topics contingent on slight variations in terms/definitions. I believe once the specific use is recognized, the case will be that we're all in agreement.
No book, paper or interview - these were all 'direct transmission' aka in class on the mat.
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Old 03-20-2006, 12:10 PM   #275
James Kelly
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Then I don't think it'd be suitable to cite in this instance.
I have to disagree. Books, papers and interviews, like this forum, are all well and good, but nothing beats training with someone directly. Seeing what they're doing, taking the ukemi and if they're open to it, asking direct questions. In fact, I'd say that direct training trumps all other forms of transmission. Terry used to say this a lot, ‘what's most important is that I touch you' (or something like that).
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