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Old 02-18-2006, 02:09 PM   #226
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
The technique that results is not chosen by us, by our interaction. I guess that's as close to properly executed technique as I can imagine currently.
Exactly!

When you've mastered the movements so well that the proper movement is reflexive, sensing uke's utilization of a hole is next (as it pertains to this discussion). For instance, while moving for a first control throw, uke resists prior to breaking his balance (bad technique, but good example), you, instead of forcing your way through him, change to circular movement to take advantage of resistance.

This is not an instance of "bouncing from technique to technique." You can look at it two ways: It's an instance of sh'te bouncing from kata to kata...but in reality it's an instance of one technique applied correctly.


I'm sure with this description in mind, you can see how it's not possible for a "technique" to fail...only the practitioner's failure to apply the techniqu...And on that, we all are fallible


Edwin,

I wouldn't say that "infallibility is an exagerration of Aikido", it's part of the misdefining of Aikido.

The practitioner fails to execute the technique (technique as described above).
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Old 02-19-2006, 05:48 PM   #227
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Ok, Jean now I'm really confused. You seem to be defining "technique" in kind of an odd way above. It sounds to me like you want to define it as "everything that happens from the attack until you have controlled the attacker (e.g. throw or pin)". Is that fair? If so it is a perculiar definition I hae neer seen used before.

And of course as I think Edwin has been saying, if you have built success in as part of the definition then of course it is "infallible" but only in a semantec senses.

But more confusing is the arguments you've had that "bouncing from technique to technique" (my words) is bad and leads to the aiki dance. At the time I thought I knew what you meant by that, but this new light on what you mean by "technique" confuses me. If that is indeed the definition you're running, what sense does it make to even talk about "bouncing from technique to technique"? Under the definition I'm seeing above, I struggle to see how you could comment on that concept other than saying it doesn't make sense (as opposed to being good or bad). Care to clarify?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 11:24 AM   #228
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
For instance, while moving for a first control throw, uke resists prior to breaking his balance (bad technique, but good example), you, instead of forcing your way through him, change to circular movement to take advantage of resistance.

This is not an instance of "bouncing from technique to technique." You can look at it two ways: It's an instance of sh'te bouncing from kata to kata...but in reality it's an instance of one technique applied correctly.
Hmmm.. I am currently approaching this as.. the technique does not begin until balance is fully broken. Everything before that is not technique, it's connection, kuzushi, etc.. but it's not yet technique.

It's a hard practice though, because I am very used to wanting to perform technique that I sometimes get caught up in that.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-21-2006, 11:52 AM   #229
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Technique does not begin until the balance is fully broken? That's almost the exact opposite of what I would have thought. breaking the balance surely *is* the technique. It's the most important thing we train to do. Everything else is just cake.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:21 PM   #230
tarik
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Technique does not begin until the balance is fully broken? That's almost the exact opposite of what I would have thought. breaking the balance surely *is* the technique. It's the most important thing we train to do. Everything else is just cake.
I agree that learning kuzushi is just about the most important thing we train to do.

I also agree that everything after kuzushi is cake (I would say gravy normally).

However, I disagree that the 'waza' (technique) is the kuzushi.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:51 PM   #231
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

fair enough.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:52 PM   #232
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
infallability is one of the exaggerations that is most common in aikido parlance... there is no such thing... everyone is fallable... any technique from any art is 'infallable' if applied correctly....
Amen.

I've offered some criticism of the aikido of "name" players (on videos here and there) and the response by other posters has been very defensive.

I think it's a healthy exercise to see the weak points of the Shihan. I saw Saito flub a grab once with UKE remaining still so he could recover. I saw, was it Isoyama? flub a throw completely and UKE didn't stand still waiting.

He threw himself.

(Blush)

I even saw a video where Osensei pulled his hand out of UKE's grip but UKE (Chiba?) followed in pantomime and took the fall.

I think it'd be healthy and certainly interesting to document such things, but I think most people would feel presumptuous to do so.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:56 PM   #233
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Technique does not begin until the balance is fully broken? That's almost the exact opposite of what I would have thought. breaking the balance surely *is* the technique. It's the most important thing we train to do. Everything else is just cake.
Inaba of Meiji shrine gave a very interesting interview to Stanley Pranin and touched on this. In his scheme of things, stopping an attack--breaking balance--is AIKI. Preventing further attack is JUJUTSU. If you stop attack and follow with technique, this is AIKI JUJUTSU. If the balance break is enough to end it, that is AIKI (NO) JUTSU.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:47 PM   #234
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Interesting concept....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:15 PM   #235
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
the technique does not begin until balance is fully broken. Everything before that is not technique, it's connection, kuzushi, etc.. but it's not yet technique.

It's a hard practice though, because I am very used to wanting to perform technique that I sometimes get caught up in that.
Well, I'd say that if uke offers his balance, the movement/s to capture the balance would be part of the technique (as long as the movements are efficient).

Anything done after the balance is controlled would be a technique as long as control is maintained. If control of uke's balance is lost during the technique, then it ceases to be Aikido.


Michael Fooks,

I hope the above post is enough to clarify. If it's not, I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe...The aiki-dance isn't Aikido because it's just two people who are failing to gain control of uke's balance.

This is why I believe Kancho Shioda says 'If you think about it, the moment has passed.' Individuals caught up in the dance are demonstrating the technique of individuals who have yet to have their context-appropriate techniques reflexively memorized. You can call it technique if you like, but it's not Aikido technique as far as I'm concerned.

As far as not hearing a similar definition (if that's the case still), I'd say maybe that's the reason for widespread misunderstanding that Aikidoka don't ever take hits. LOL.

I've never heard anyone of rank say stuff like "if you miss this entry, then..." It seems to me that it's simply implied that good Aikido technique only takes once.

So, I guess "infallibility" is built in. However, I imagine that we each have to experience what makes it infallible to understand why it is.


On "breaking balance" being the most important thing, I'd say that that's important, but what makes it Aikido is keeping it once you've got it.
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:17 PM   #236
tarik
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Interesting concept....

This might seem like semantics, but I think there is something worth exploring in our training by breaking things down in this direction. I certainly didn't think it up.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:23 PM   #237
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I agree Tarik. I've thought for a while that alot of what we call "kokyu" throws, are really just the off balancing part of the technique done so effevtively that nothing else is required - what would correspond to Aiki in your example. And that the waza are only necessary when either uke is good enough to recover, or your off balancing hasn't been 100% and they have been allowed to recover.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:29 PM   #238
Edwin Neal
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

in judo they break the technique (waza) into 3 phases, kuzushi is 1st phase of the waza, then tsukuri or entry/positioning, then kake or the execution/completion of waza... i wouldn't call any phase of the waza cake, you must have each phase and build up to sucessful application... the name of different waza and the more general use of the term 'technique' referring to the entire event of being nage are a little confusing, even if you flow from one technique(waza) to another ie ikkyo into sankyo... it is only one flowing instance of techinique(nagemi)...
Don, i know what you are talking about, but that is kind of different from what i was meaning, though similar... there is a difference in a shihan looking at some idiot uke who just bungled ukemi and is not trying to demonstrate the technique for the classes instruction, and faking it in say a randori setting... its a relative kind of thing... certainly you should never 'fake it' for anyone... but try to be honest and understand the context of the situation... this doesn't mean the technique is fallible, but was incorrectly applied... applied correctly by definition means waza suceeded...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-21-2006, 03:50 PM   #239
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Perhaps the fallability question can be illuminated by going back to an ealier discussion point on this thread. There is obviously no problem with techniques being designed to suceed. It could be argued that it follows that there is no problem with success being a part of the definition of a technique, and consequently and art.
The question in my mind is do you then assume all techniques will (by definition) succeed and claim no one is doing the art if they ever experience failure;
or does the art have built into it's theory and practice the possibility of failure and make recovery from failure a decent chunk of what they do.

The former is delusion, the latter is learning how to fight imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:06 PM   #240
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
There is obviously no problem with techniques being designed to suceed.

and claim no one is doing the art if they ever experience failure;

does the art have built into it's theory and practice the possibility of failure and make recovery from failure a decent chunk of what they do.

The former is delusion, the latter is learning how to fight imo.
If it 'is' a technique, it already succeeded. If it's not a technique, it failed.


I'd claim that they practice Aikido in class...However, if they "use" Aikido in a confrontation, then you'd only know after the altercation was over.


I'd just assume spend my time on practicing doing it right the first time.


I believe that if you find yourself up against someone who's trained to do it right the first time, you'll not get a second chance except in some amazing scenario (READ: Piano falls on sh'te's head.).
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:09 PM   #241
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Well, I'd say that if uke offers his balance, the movement/s to capture the balance would be part of the technique (as long as the movements are efficient).
This is perhaps why we differ. I agree with Edwin's comments about how judo breaks down technique, kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake. Technique (waza in Japanese), doesn't begin until kake and is only the last 3rd of the 'technique' as we so inprecisely call it in English.

Quote:
Anything done after the balance is controlled would be a technique as long as control is maintained. If control of uke's balance is lost during the technique, then it ceases to be Aikido.
So if you fail, it isn't Aikido?

There is a huge difference between practicing Aikido and doing Aikido. I would expect there to be.

There is similarly a huge difference between practicing [football] and doing [football]. Fill in any activity for [football]. What we do in the dojo, naturally, is practice.. almost always, and we certainly should be aware of the difference.

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:12 PM   #242
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
I agree Tarik. I've thought for a while that alot of what we call "kokyu" throws, are really just the off balancing part of the technique done so effevtively that nothing else is required - what would correspond to Aiki in your example. And that the waza are only necessary when either uke is good enough to recover, or your off balancing hasn't been 100% and they have been allowed to recover.
Or when you deliberately wish to retain control of uke instead of letting them fly off somewhere.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:17 PM   #243
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote:
Or when you deliberately wish to retain control of uke instead of letting them fly off somewhere.
Yes there is that.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:18 PM   #244
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:

I'd just assume spend my time on practicing doing it right the first time.
And that's why you'll always be vulnerable. Certainly good globs of time should be given to perfecting things. But equally good amounts of time should be given to adapting in the moment to the chaotic nature of fightng.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-21-2006, 04:20 PM   #245
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I believe that if you find yourself up against someone who's trained to do it right the first time, you'll not get a second chance except in some amazing scenario (READ: Piano falls on sh'te's head.).
Are you aware of any such person living today?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-23-2006, 04:03 PM   #246
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
And that's why you'll always be vulnerable. Certainly good globs of time should be given to perfecting things. But equally good amounts of time should be given to adapting in the moment to the chaotic nature of fightng.
Sure, sure. Then I suppose I'm also vulnerable to being under attack by twenty dwarves while standing on one foot under a table.

LOL. Your posts are still dull. You still shouldn't be giving out advice.

Unfortunately, all the details are there to be discovered...not explained. Go practice and think really hard about this stuff. Maybe you'll get it one day.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 02-23-2006 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:52 PM   #247
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Maybe you'll get it one day.
But then again, maybe I won't right? Because last I heard you were saying that it may well be that no one is actually capable of doing Aikido as it is meant to be....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-25-2006, 05:42 PM   #248
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Wink Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
But then again, maybe I won't right? Because last I heard you were saying that it may well be that no one is actually capable of doing Aikido as it is meant to be....
That's what I like about you, Michael. You don't let your lack of understanding get in the way of forming an opinion. Nor do you let context of a quote limit it's application.
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Old 02-25-2006, 10:28 PM   #249
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I believe that if you find yourself up against someone who's trained to do it right the first time, you'll not get a second chance except in some amazing scenario (READ: Piano falls on sh'te's head.).
Are you aware of any such person living today?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 02-26-2006, 03:22 AM   #250
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
...
LOL. Your posts are still dull. You still shouldn't be giving out advice.

Unfortunately, all the details are there to be discovered...not explained. Go practice and think really hard about this stuff. Maybe you'll get it one day.
"Go practice, think hard and you'll discover it".... I love it! The classic defence for (a) the inability to articulate or (b) the inability to communicate understanding and (c) when cornered for an answer to which (d) you don't know the answer to.

LOL. Perhaps, you should go practice and think really hard about this stuff. Maybe one day you'll get it too.... in the meantime, I think your advice for others to go practice should be taken under advisement.


Ignatius
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