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Old 07-20-2005, 10:07 AM   #101
senshincenter
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

The "energy" I am referring to is not a type of chemical energy (e.g. the burning of a fuel). I am using the word energy to denote the presence of a mechanical energy -- an energy that enables an object to apply a force to another object in order to cause it to be displaced.

We are not talking about the value of trick or even the underlying principles of the trick. We are talking about the over-exaggeration itself. That should be clear. The fact that you yourself Mike and I have called it an over-exaggeration (in one phrase or another) implies that the trick is false in some way. My efforts are set to explain what that falseness is. If your position is different in regards to what this falseness is, though your conclusion is the same (i.e. it's an over-exaggeration), I would certainly like to hear what you consider false in the trick. What is being over-exaggerated and how does one define that over-exaggeration scientifically or mechanically?

If Tohei were to do his immoveable stance trick in front of a moving car and the car stopped and he kept his stance -- THAT is what would be the same thing here. There, in a very similar way to not seeing the jo's structural integrity being affected in the jo trick, we might well end up asking, "Why if the car is using the full capacity of its engine did the tires not possess enough energy to move (i.e. spin) nonetheless under the friction caused by the car's weight?" If he stood his base and implied that he could do it against the full resistance offered by a car, and that car's tires did not burn rubber, we would be in the same spot: We would not be talking about the value of the trick nor the principles underlying the trick. We would be talking about the over-exaggeration of the trick and we would again be forced to define (without exact numbers!) that over-exaggeration scientifically or mechanically. This would still be a thing we could do without knowing the exact weight of the car in question nor the friction capacity of the average tire and/or concrete surface (I'm assuming here the neither Tohei nor the car is on ice and that the car's tires are not bald).

In tipping Tohei over with one finger that was in the "right place," I would be changing his trick. That would not be fair. I am not out to change the playing field or the rules of the game. I am accepting the conditions as they are being set in the trick itself -- or in the over-exaggeration itself. Thus, I would have to push where Tohei said to push (accepting and knowing that I could not push him over from there). In the same way, in the jo trick, I am simply taking that last uke's position (on the distal end) -- not a secret "right position" that is outside of the trick. From that position I can apply my one finger to capitalize upon the mechanical advantage offered by the longer lever and thus to move the distal end around Osensei's shorter end quite easily.

If the terms are getting in the way here, some video could settle things. There is an underlying or implied hint in your posts Mike that you can do the jo trick (i.e. that you understand its basic mechanics as well as its limitations, etc.). If that is the case, if I'm sensing this correctly, I would very much like to see a more contemporary demonstration -- especially one that would stay within the mechanical boundaries of its application. If you do not have access to a web site for posting -- I can post it temporarily on our web site on our video page (see signature below). You just have to email it to me -- you can get our email address from our web site as well. If we cannot take this to the next level of demonstration, I'm afraid we'll just be debating over terminologies -- and that ain't going to get us anywhere.

Still, I've enjoyed our conversation. Thanks very much.

dmv

ps. If my usage of the word "energy" is odd to you, I'm feeling the same way when you say "that one can move powerfully and economically with a good command" BUT without kokyu. Maybe that's what is at heart here - we don't even agree on what kokyu is (so we are talking past each other). For me, one can't move powerfully and economically with good command but without kokyu. For me, the static tricks are easier - just as kokyu-ryoku demonstrations are easier under controlled or predetermined conditions (e.g. kihon-waza). For me, the highest demonstration of kokyu-ryoku is moving powerfully and economically with good command under spontaneous conditions - especially spontaneous martial conditions. For me, kokyu-ryoku is not something extra or different or outside of moving powerfully and economically with good command.

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:27 AM   #102
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
For me, the highest demonstration of kokyu-ryoku is moving powerfully and economically with good command under spontaneous conditions - especially spontaneous martial conditions. For me, kokyu-ryoku is not something extra or different or outside of moving powerfully and economically with good command.
David,
I believe this also. You hit the nail on the head. If we are going to be able to define Kokyu we must all decide to adhere to this idea that Kokyu "is not something extra or different" or anything other than the use of proper body mechanics. Otherise, we will be "peein' in the wind" tyring to expain the supernatural which, by definition, is unexplainabe or debatable.
I could be wrong...
Jason
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:43 AM   #103
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
The "energy" I am referring to is not a type of chemical energy (e.g. the burning of a fuel). I am using the word energy to denote the presence of a mechanical energy -- an energy that enables an object to apply a force to another object in order to cause it to be displaced.
An energy is still not a force or vector force, David. It's easier to understand these things if we use precise terminology, etc. Obviously vague terms and old videos in which we can't gauge forces, etc., won't help the discussion. That's all I'm saying.
Quote:
We are not talking about the value of trick or even the underlying principles of the trick. We are talking about the over-exaggeration itself. That should be clear. The fact that you yourself Mike and I have called it an over-exaggeration (in one phrase or another) implies that the trick is false in some way.
I disagree. We're trying to define kokyu and the discussion is becoming fixated on one trick. An exaggeration of abilities or working at the limits of abilities does NOT mean the abilities are false. Because Tohei cannot stop a truck while standing on one leg doesn't mean that he can't hold a person and that that ability is useless martially.
Quote:
In tipping Tohei over with one finger that was in the "right place," I would be changing his trick. That would not be fair. I am not out to change the playing field or the rules of the game. I am accepting the conditions as they are being set in the trick itself -- or in the over-exaggeration itself. Thus, I would have to push where Tohei said to push (accepting and knowing that I could not push him over from there).
I can push where Tohei says and push him over. But I recognize that he's simply demonstrating an interesting truth... the fact that I can push him over doesn't take away from the utility of the kokyu he can use.
Quote:
If the terms are getting in the way here, some video could settle things.
I doubt it... video is what started the argument. If we ever meet and I've kept up my training, I'll show you the jo trick.
Quote:
For me, kokyu-ryoku is not something extra or different or outside of moving powerfully and economically with good command.
Then we're talking about different things.

Mike
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:49 AM   #104
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Oh my gosh! Give me a break. Yes, I'm really an engineer - so sure of myself, that I don't mind being corrected in my thinking.

Of course I was writing about the over-exaggeration when I stated that I agreed with David - since he was clearly writing about the over-exaggeration. I understand that less than 3 athletes who are not pushing with all their might is a more reasonable example.

I just was told that they did this jo-trick in jujitsu school O-sensei came from. I learn something new everyday!

Quote:
An exaggeration of abilities or working at the limits of abilities does NOT mean the abilities are false.
I do not think anyone is suggesting otherwise. I (and I assume David) just don't buy into the over-exaggeration.

Rob
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:51 AM   #105
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote:
If we are going to be able to define Kokyu we must all decide to adhere to this idea that Kokyu "is not something extra or different" or anything other than the use of proper body mechanics. Otherise, we will be "peein' in the wind" tyring to expain the supernatural
I think this is why most of western Aikido, karate, Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, Jiujitsu, etc., is doomed to being mediocre, Jason. Basically everyone thinks that the things they know about movement are all there is to know... and anyone who tries to talk about something else immediately must be talking about the "supernatural". In reality, there's 3 categories: what you know; what you don't know; and then the supernatural. Most of the resistance I've seen in a lot of years has come from people who are convinced that there can NOT be many things they don't know and IF there's something they don't know, it must be trivial.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:54 AM   #106
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I just was told that they did this jo-trick in jujitsu school O-sensei came from. I learn something new everyday!
Credible or "iffy" source?

Mike
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:59 AM   #107
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Apparently it is written in Ellis Amdur's book. I didn't read it myself, yet. Everything I have read by him is pretty good so I'll get to it soon. - Rob

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Old 07-20-2005, 11:46 AM   #108
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Stonehenge Jo trick?
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Old 07-20-2005, 11:51 AM   #109
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Hi Rob, You said the jujutsu school...do you mean Daito ryu? and which book in particular by Ellis?

Thanks,
Ron

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Old 07-20-2005, 11:57 AM   #110
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Apparently it is written in Ellis Amdur's book. I didn't read it myself, yet. Everything I have read by him is pretty good so I'll get to it soon. - Rob
If the story is true, it raises some interesting questions. The training for the jo-trick involves more sophisticated knowledge of kokyu skills than most kokyu tricks because of the training for unusual strength. If Ueshiba learned this stuff from Takeda it's puzzling what, if anything, was involved in Omoto kokyu-training rituals that would have been new.

Mike
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:26 PM   #111
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Re: Defining Kokyu

My assumption was that it was probably Dueling with O-Sensei; but I was hoping someone else would chime in. - Rob
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:28 PM   #112
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Ron, I assume so. What does Daito ryu mean? great sword school??! (just curious) - Rob
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:28 PM   #113
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Re: Defining Kokyu

The "to" in the term "Daito" is the character for east, not sword.
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:01 PM   #114
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Re: Defining Kokyu

I am just using energy in the general sense here -- it's not this complicated, nor do such attempts to complicate things corrupt the insights into why Osensei's jo trick is false and/or an over-exaggeration (i.e. false). "Energy" here is just "the ability to do work." "Mechanical energy" is "the energy which is possessed by an object due to its motion or its stored energy of position." No one is out to push Einstein to his limits and/or to demonstrate that he is either now irrelevant or remains relevant to the field of theoretical physics. :-) In addition, you are still invited to say why you think Osensei's trick is an over-exaggeration. My terms should not be getting in the way of that effort.

For me: There is a reason why Osensei's jo trick is an over-exaggeration and that reason is explainable mechanically. That is my position. I am not referring to Aikido, to Osensei, to the jo, to kokyu-ryoku, to Osensei's level of kokyu-ryoku, to the means by which kokyu-ryoku is cultivated, etc. I am solely referring to Osensei's jo trick, and in particular, I am referring to the one being demonstrated against three young fit and strong uke. In regards to that, your position now seems to be saying, "It is an over exaggeration because he didn't have enough kokyu-ryoku (implying that kokyu-ryoku is something outside of powerful and economic movement -- something external to mechanical issues)." This is why I suggested we probably could not have a discussion here -- even if we could opt to use the same terminology and/or allow each other our particular and/or working definitions (which I was willing to do).

It is true the thread started out attempting to define kokyu, but for a while now the topic of this thread has been the exaggeration of Osensei's jo trick. That should be obvious since not only I but also everyone else has also taken this as their point of discussion for quite some time now. In addition, relevance is still on this side of things, as this part of the thread has brought us full circle to a place where we can see that for you kokyu-ryoku falls outside of mechanical issues. That did not come out so clearly in the beginning of the thread when definitions were being posited.

As for video: Actually, it was through the video that we found our place of agreement: the jo trick is an over-exaggeration. Therefore, I am sorry you will not film yourself demonstrating the jo trick, delineating the elements involved and demarcating its boundaries. I still think that would have been very helpful. Without the video, this talk then will be doomed to the abstract -- from there, it does not matter at all what we might be saying. Still, I thank you kindly for the gracious invite -- maybe one day I can take you up on it (maybe at the next Aiki Expo, etc.). Again -- thank you.

As I said earlier, I am personally not interested in the power issues related to kokyu-ryoku. I am not interested in doing tricks or in taking kokyu tests. In my understanding of kokyu-ryoku, I clearly connected kokyu-ryoku to issues of the heart/mind and in particular to the reconciliation of the subject/object dichotomy. By extension, I said I was more interested in the relative social, spiritual, and religious aspects of kokyu cultivation. In other words, I am not interested if one can do the unbendable arm if one cannot duplicate its architecture and mechanics tactically under spontaneous martial conditions. Likewise, I am not interested if one can execute the architecture and mechanics of the unbendable arm tactically under spontaneous martial conditions if one cannot embody and practice its principles when it comes to the interpersonal relationships he/she has with a spouse, with one's aging parents, with one's children, or with one's God.

I have seen many people do the unbendable arm under its test conditions only to have no sense of extension and/or of relaxation come spontaneous martial conditions (conditions that through our attachment to fear, pride, and ignorance force us to disconnect from our true center and instead adopt a mere egocentricism). There is a lack of spiritual maturity that can hide in such static demonstrations. This lack of maturity cannot so easily hide within spontaneous martial conditions. Why is this so? Because of the role the heart/mind truly does play in our physical mechanics and thus in our cultivation and application of kokyu-ryoku. The heart/mind, in particular its lack of cultivation concerning non-attachment and the reconciliation of the subject/object dichotomy, is not so "pressured" within the static and/or test conditions of these demonstrations. Still - it is the same with those that may be martially skilled (i.e. effective).

Within the training environments wherein one cultivates martial effectiveness, the lack of development concerning the spiritual maturity of the heart/mind can still find space to function because it is not so challenged by that which it is experiencing. However, come, for example, the total investment of being and of self-identity, etc., as experienced in the interpersonal relationships that construct the world that we are living, the heart/mind that is immature in its spiritual cultivation will prevent us from demonstrating relaxed non-threatening and non-threatened integrity with our body (i.e. our actions). We thus become light as a feather, ungrounded, de-centered, and thus often we are possessed by the accompanying emotional states of anger, frustration, jealousy, hatred, fear, pride, etc. We fall from Center to egocentricism (i.e. a false center or an over-exaggerated sense of self -- which is another way of understanding Osensei's jo trick!).

That said, concerning kokyu-ryoku: In attempting to define the term, I do not care how unbendable our arm is under static or controlled conditions. In addition, ultimately, I do not care how much we can maintain kokyu-ryoku within spontaneous martial conditions. If we are concerned with kokyu-ryoku, really attempting to understand it here and/or define it, I care about how we act with our loved ones, with our fellow Man, with our God. Is the relationship of the heart/mind to the body supernatural? Nope. Is it something that cannot be witnessed on video? Nope. (Check out this link for how the heart/mind affects our tactical geometries: http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...ningstage.html) (Check out this page and these other videos for further explanation and for contrasting examples: http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...eflection.html) Do we have to look at each other here and accuse each other of being ignorant and/or of even being incapable of understanding such things? Nope. In fact, if there is one thing that we should be cautious about when we are claiming to attempt to define something, it is suggesting that folks just cannot understand what they do not know, and that even if they could (by some act of miracle!) that we cannot explain it to them. For if any position might be supported by fear, pride, or ignorance, it would most likely be this one -- this one wherein we demonstrate no capacity at kokyu-ryoku where it would actually be of any kind of real value.

My opinion,
dmv

(p.s. You are right Rob in assuming that I am right there with you.)

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:39 PM   #115
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I am just using energy in the general sense here -- it's not this complicated, nor do such attempts to complicate things corrupt the insights into why Osensei's jo trick is false and/or an over-exaggeration (i.e. false). "Energy" here is just "the ability to do work." "Mechanical energy" is "the energy which is possessed by an object due to its motion or its stored energy of position." No one is out to push Einstein to his limits and/or to demonstrate that he is either now irrelevant or remains relevant to the field of theoretical physics. :-) In addition, you are still invited to say why you think Osensei's trick is an over-exaggeration. My terms should not be getting in the way of that effort.
My point is that O'Sensei did not project energy and that your parsing what energy means still doesn't clarify what you said. I was trying to keep the discussion clear. And I posted reasonably accurately what the problem was, as I saw it, with O-Sensei's demonstration.
Quote:
For me: There is a reason why Osensei's jo trick is an over-exaggeration and that reason is explainable mechanically. That is my position.
OK. I understand your position.[quote]your position now seems to be saying, "It is an over exaggeration because he didn't have enough kokyu-ryoku (implying that kokyu-ryoku is something outside of powerful and economic movement -- something external to mechanical issues)." [quote] No I didn't say that or even seem to be saying that. His ability to transmit forces was pretty good, but the demonstration was just more than he could handle. That's not "false". Besides... he was old, which probably affected the demonstration. [quote]...we can see that for you kokyu-ryoku falls outside of mechanical issues. That did not come out so clearly in the beginning of the thread when definitions were being posited.[quote] How can you see that? Show me one post that indicates a belief on my part that kokyu-ryoku falls outside of mechanical issues. I think the problem is that you and I have quite different ideas of what kokyu ryoku is. As I've said, anyone who has a real grasp of kokyu ryoku can easily do these simple static tricks (allowing for degree of conditioning, obviously).
Quote:
In my understanding of kokyu-ryoku, I clearly connected kokyu-ryoku to issues of the heart/mind and in particular to the reconciliation of the subject/object dichotomy. By extension, I said I was more interested in the relative social, spiritual, and religious aspects of kokyu cultivation. In other words, I am not interested if one can do the unbendable arm if one cannot duplicate its architecture and mechanics tactically under spontaneous martial conditions. Likewise, I am not interested if one can execute the architecture and mechanics of the unbendable arm tactically under spontaneous martial conditions if one cannot embody and practice its principles when it comes to the interpersonal relationships he/she has with a spouse, with one's aging parents, with one's children, or with one's God.
OK. Well.... this is all getting a little off topic then. Let's move on. Kokyu power has physical explanations. Simple kokyu demonstrations, which you seem to trivialize, are the most suitable examples for analysis and exposition of kokyu, just like in the thread title. There is no difference between the kokyu used in demonstrations and the kokyu used in movement and martial techniques. If you think there is a difference (and the term kokyu is applied to them both, so that would be odd indeed), can you explain *physically* why? If not, it's pointless to use vague terms, spiritual ideals, etc., in this sort of discussion.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-20-2005, 03:16 PM   #116
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Well every one else got what I was saying - even those that offered other mechanical possibilities (critiques of my position). Still, I will take responsibility here for the vagueness you are feeling.

Back to topic…

Nope, I do not think there is a structural difference in kokyu. That has been might point all along -- that is why I do not give preference to ki tricks and/or "secret training techniques" or "techniques not handed down to Westerners" over kihon waza (for example). However, that was an impression I was getting from your earlier posts. The reason, for me, why Osensei's jo trick is an over-exaggeration (i.e. false) is precisely because it violates mechanical laws relative to what is present -- mechanical laws that are universal to both ki tricks and kihon waza. When it comes to kokyu-ryoku demonstrations, I merely prefer kihon waza over static ki tests; spontaneous martial applications over kihon waza; interpersonal real-life applications over spontaneous martial applications. This I do for the simple but huge role that the heart/mind plays in our capacity to cultivate and apply kokyu. My personal preference in regards to demonstration is not based upon a difference in the nature of the kokyu involved. It is a preference based upon the maturity of kokyu-ryoku or the capacity to apply kokyu under more real-life (i.e. less determined, more personally invested) conditions AS SUCH THINGS ARE RELATIVE TO THE SPIRITUAL CULTIVATION OF THE HEART/MIND.

Along the same lines, as I said earlier, I would never suggest that a person that can do the unbendable arm under ki test conditions can therefore demonstrate such kokyu-ryoku under spontaneous martial conditions and/or in real-life conflicts relative to their interpersonal relationships. In short, the nature of the kokyu-ryoku may be the same but the maturity of it is almost guaranteed to be different. One can think of this like two trees: An old mature tree and a young tree. Both are trees, but only the mature tree has the likely tenacity to endure the trials of the changing seasons.

By the same reasoning (i.e. that the kokyu in ki tests and in kihon waza are not inherently different), I would never say that one could move in a powerful and economic manner with command but not be employing kokyu. Such a statement, to me, seems to merely be a way of wrongly raising a person who cannot move powerfully, economically, and in command under semi-martial (e.g. kihon waza) and/or martial conditions (e.g. spontaneous) but can do "ki tricks." It seems to be a way of denouncing the obvious from the martially effective in the face of and for the benefit of someone that is either too old, too out of shape, too injured, and in possession of too few of training hours particular to given martial pedagogy, etc. Moreover, it does this all for the "hidden," but somehow more "real," reason that what appears to be less is actually more. Such reasoning is not my thing -- not what I am into.

Thanks again for the reply,
dmv

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Old 07-20-2005, 03:47 PM   #117
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I would never say that one could move in a powerful and economic manner with command but not be employing kokyu.
This is an interesting statement which I believe was used earlier. I suppose it depends a bit on what your definition of "move in a powerful and economic manner with command" and "employing kokyu" mean to you, but by my personal interpretation of those terms I'm not sure about that. I have experienced (i.e. been thrown by) some very good and powerful aikido teachers that really knew how to use the correct angles and use their power generated from their hips turning, etc to create some powerful throws. Don't get me wrong, their aikido is good and they aren't using incorrect technique, nor muscling through anything, but I didn't really feel the kokyu connection and power I have felt from some other teachers. That is why I think a person can move powerfully without necessarily using kokyu. However, that being said I also think it has limitations, and the addition of kokyu power is another level that lets you get beyond just that good technique. The teachers that I have experienced that did use kokyu power were powerful as well, but in a different way which can be difficult to be put into words.
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Old 07-20-2005, 03:53 PM   #118
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Hi James,

Noting that we are still within the realm of kihon waza, any chance you might be able to elaborate on what this difference might be? Any chance you could provide any video of the teachers in question so that we might be able to put some action to some feelings?

dmv

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Old 07-20-2005, 04:19 PM   #119
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Sorry I don't really have any video or anything like that to offer. As with many things in aikido and of this nature, video may not be particularly helpful since kokyu power is somewhat not readily visible, but if you are feeling it the reality of it is unquestionable.

Since Ushiro-sensei was mentioned earlier in the thread and I offered my opinion that I felt he had a mastery of kokyu I'll share one example that I think illustrates it. At the last Aiki Expo he demonstrated a punch with kokyu power behind it. What he did was he made a fist about one inch or so in front of a person. Then with very little body movement he closed the space (one inch or so) and struck the person in the chest and sent the person flying back several feet. Under normal striking methods a person can't generate enough energy or velocity to strike with that much power in only an inch or so of space, but yet the resulting power that he generated was as if he had wound his arm back and struck the person with a full-on punch. Granted the person on the receiving end was not expecting to be struck that powerfully from such a small-distance punch so the result may have had a more dramatic effect than if he knew otherwise what was going to happen. However, I know it wasn't fake or an over-exageration because I know the person who got punched and he has no association with Ushiro-sensei before and he confirmed to me the experience of the kokyu power he felt being transmitted into him.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:32 PM   #120
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
James Young wrote:
Since Ushiro-sensei was mentioned earlier in the thread and I offered my opinion that I felt he had a mastery of kokyu I'll share one example that I think illustrates it. At the last Aiki Expo he demonstrated a punch with kokyu power behind it.
Hi James:

Good story. I agree with you in the sense that if you haven't felt kokyu, you probably have little concept of the fact that it's distinguishable.

However, just to interject a quick point, almost all expert hits using kokyu power are going to add one of two (or three or four) embellishments to the technique which add considerably to the power. The "kokyu" can be looked at as the very solid path of relaxed power, but it would probably be slightly inaccurate to attribute all of a good hit strictly to kokyu. I can hit extremely hard with just my fist (or palm) resting against someone and I use kokyu as the basis of the power... but to be clinically accurate, there are additive components, even if I don't appear to really move.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-20-2005, 05:59 PM   #121
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Hi James,

For me that "one inch punch" demonstration - which is something I have done and have had done to me - is still not something external to body mechanics. I'm not saying that kokyu-ryoku is not present - I am saying that because kokyu-ryoku is present, the proper body mechanics are present BUT more importantly I'm saying the vice versa is true. I would never qualify that demonstration as something outside of or separate from proper body mechanics. Any person that claims to be demonstrating proper body mechanics and thus claiming to be in possession of kokyu-ryoku should be able to send a person "flying" who is standing naturally by hitting them in the upper chest area with a punch or with a palm heel strike closer than one inch or less - no problem. I cannot agree with your interpretation of "Under normal striking methods a person can't generate enough energy or velocity to strike with that much power in only an inch or so of space, but yet the resulting power that he generated was as if he had wound his arm back and struck the person with a full-on punch." Also of note, I would guess that Ushiro could hit a lot harder still if he threw the punch from even greater distance.

It's not my cup of tea that kokyu-ryoku is invisible to the eye (or the camera's eye) or to a third party - just as one can look at a finished piece of calligraphy and be able to tell if it was drawn with kokyu or not. However, okay, that's your take James and it excuses a lot once granted. However, you should be able to find some video of something that you feel is demonstrating good body mechanics and/or that is not demonstrating good body mechanics and/or that is demonstrating good body mechanics but no kokyu-ryoku. Aikidojournal.com is sure to have plenty of folks to choose from. An example here would do a lot to pinpoint your position. Because right now you are kind of just flying in a like a dive bomber out of nowhere (i.e. "I know different, but I cannot show you, or demonstrate it.") I'd rather not have to ignore your point but if we cannot move beyond the claim then all we can say in light of your contribution is, "Well...okay..."

Maybe you can at least say who was throwing you with good body mechanics but no kokyu - letting us find the video ourselves and letting us take our chances with what we see. Alternatively, or in addition, maybe you can say who was throwing you with kokyu - such that we can again find the video ourselves and again take our chances with what we see.

For me, I think it is pretty easy (obvious) to see the interdependent relationship between good body mechanics and kokyu-ryoku, particularly concerning martial applications. In that light, I suggest we could all take a look at page 8 of the video section over at AJ.com - there as a good example of this interdependence one can see Tissier, Ikeda, Shirata; on page 10 one can see Yamaguchi. As questionable and/or as exaggerated examples - where the tactical employment of body mechanics is less then stellar and thus the presence of kokyu-ryoku itself becomes questionable and/or exaggerated - see page 10 for Tekeda and page 6 for Yamano.

I did not try to exhaust the video library at AJ.com. I just looked randomly and tried to get folks of different styles and/or applications real quick.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:17 PM   #122
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Would you be happy if I solved your jo trick?

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Old 07-20-2005, 07:33 PM   #123
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

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Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Would you be happy if I solved your jo trick?
Hey, go for it.

Mike
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Old 07-20-2005, 08:31 PM   #124
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Just put it on video.

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-21-2005, 02:03 AM   #125
James Young
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Re: Defining Kokyu

I'll take a couple moments to address a couple of points brought up here in regards to my post.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
However, just to interject a quick point, almost all expert hits using kokyu power are going to add one of two (or three or four) embellishments to the technique which add considerably to the power.
Agreed. I just wanted to make the point that it was a technique that utilized kokyu power, i.e. went beyond just typical readily visible technique mechanics. I think that was Ushiro-sensei's point in demonstrating it as he wanted to emphasize the kokyu power that comes from sanchin. However, I believe that you are right that there were likely other less visible elements beyond just pure kokyu power that made it even more effective.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I would never qualify that demonstration as something outside of or separate from proper body mechanics.
I didn't say, or at least didn't intend to imply, that it was outside of or separate from body mechanics. Kokyu power can only come if you have good control over body mechanics, e.g. good posture, relaxing muscles like the shoulder, etc. Contrary perhaps to some of O-sensei's assertions I don't believe in some supernatural diety or force enters the body to produce kokyu power. It's all in the realm of body mechanics and people with enough practice and training should be able to do it and people with the right knowlege should be able to explain how the power is generated in body mechanical terms. There person though is certainly not me. The only caveat I would make is that it's not in the realm of the common use of body mechanics, i.e. just using muscles, etc. that most people depend on.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I cannot agree with your interpretation of "Under normal striking methods a person can't generate enough energy or velocity to strike with that much power in only an inch or so of space, but yet the resulting power that he generated was as if he had wound his arm back and struck the person with a full-on punch." Also of note, I would guess that Ushiro could hit a lot harder still if he threw the punch from even greater distance.
In my experience most normal people cannot generate that kind of power in only an inch or so of space, so to me that is an unusal skill and I think beyond most people's normal striking skill. Perhaps the circles you are in people already know how to incorporate that power as part of the normal way they do strikes and it is less extraordinary for you. Undoubtedly you are right that if Ushiro-sensei threw the punch from a greater distance with that kokyu power behind it, it would be even more powerful.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
It's not my cup of tea that kokyu-ryoku is invisible to the eye (or the camera's eye) or to a third party - just as one can look at a finished piece of calligraphy and be able to tell if it was drawn with kokyu or not.
I didn't intend to say it was invisible, it's just not readily visible to most people unless you know what to look for. Using your shodo example, most people don't know if a certain piece was drawn with kokyu or not unless they have an understanding of kokyu and its effect on shodo beforehand.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Maybe you can at least say who was throwing you with good body mechanics but no kokyu - letting us find the video ourselves and letting us take our chances with what we see. Alternatively, or in addition, maybe you can say who was throwing you with kokyu - such that we can again find the video ourselves and again take our chances with what we see.
Actually the people in the former category I was thinking of are mostly some past teachers of mine who aren't well-known, so you won't be able to find any video of them. I could think of some more famous teachers as possible examples, but I would be reluctant to put out names because that only stands to offend certain people who may be connected with them and I would be drawing a conclusion on my experience that was limited with them (i.e. just a seminar where I've been thrown a couple of times or something like that), therefore I don't think I could confidently say they don't use kokyu power in their technique because my experience may be an isolated example where they just weren't emphasizing it. As for the latter category I'm sure you can find video of people like Abe-sensei or Ikeda-sensei who do focus on kokyu power more, but then again the video you have access to may or may not demonstrate that point well. I apologize if I can't substantiate my points more solidly with video examples or other references, but these are really just my opinions based on my observation and experiences, so if you feel it doesn't hold weight for you then please feel free to ignore it.
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