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Old 07-16-2005, 02:29 PM   #26
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Mike - that description is hard to follow - got any video we can look at?

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-16-2005, 03:08 PM   #27
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Mike - that description is hard to follow - got any video we can look at?
After I wrote it I realized it wasn't the world's best description, David. Sorry. No video... I was just trying to imagine a simple, discussable situation.

Let me try again. You're in ai-hanmi, right foot forward but with your right foot outside of his right foot.. You're holding uke's right wrist in your left hand and your right hand is placed on the inside of his right elbow so you can comfortably push straight ahead against his elbow, throwing him backward/downward. Alternatively, the push with the right hand could be against uke's chest. Hope that's a clearer view of the simple kokyu-type push/throw that will allow us to analyse what is kokyu, what's not, etc.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-16-2005, 03:17 PM   #28
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Re: Defining Kokyu

I'm sorry Mike - I must be too dense to get the description. Apologies.

Let me try and participate with what I'm thinking anyways - please/thanks.



I want to say that this question is interesting and thus that I would like to participate in the discussion. Yet, at the same time, before I do, I would also like to say that while I am sure we may learn a lot by reflecting upon these things, we may in the end be making a bit too much out of nomenclature here. That is to say, the names of the techniques are fairly new and so the delineations between what is actually being prescribed may simply be reified (unnecessarily) through our opinions. That said, I am understanding the question to be: What makes a Kokyu Nage a "Kokyu Nage"?

I as well draw a distinction between "kokyu-ryoku" and "Kokyu Nage." All waza should utilize kokyu-ryoku. All waza should utilize kokyu-ryoku to the same level (i.e. as much as possible). Thus, I do not delineate a "Kokyu Nage" but the presence of "kokyu-ryoku. Nor (inversely) do I delineate "Ikkyo" by the absence of "kokyu-ryoku." Both include "kokyu-ryoku -- as should striking, kicking, choking, cutting, stabbing, but also standing and sitting as well, etc.

Aside from noting "Kokyu Nage" as a generic term that covers waza not in possession of their own nomenclature, for me, a "Kokyu Nage" is also a throw that tends to affect the geometry of Uke's body by the physics of the encounter alone (or for the most part). For me this stands in contrast to waza that either divide the tasks of affecting Uke's body by both a given tactical geometry AND a utilization of the physics present, or from those waza that are dominated more by a tactical geometry (with the physics involved playing a lesser or zero role altogether). In short, what one is noting the presence of a higher acceptance of energy prints as they are and a lesser presence of manipulating energy prints. Thus, for me, a trait of "Kokyu Nage" is that it is marked more by what can be called "Target Availability" and less by what can be called "Target Creation." Therefore, one can see that (for me) a "Kokyu Nage" is not about how I present myself (i.e. with kokyu-ryoku) but rather about how I allow a certain tactical scenario to present itself to me. In the end, for me, the highest ideal is to make every throw a Kokyu Nage.

To (maybe) help what I am trying to get at here -- please look at the following video;

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/kaitennage.html

For me, the first throw is a "Kokyu Nage" and the other throws could be called "Kaiten Nage." In the first throw, Uke's tactical geometry is ultimately deconstructed by the physics involved (more so than by a direct geometrical manipulation). In the following throws, Uke's tactical geometry is deconstructed by the direct attempts to execute "kaiten" (e.g. Uke's arm is always taken back and up over the top apex of the circle in combination with whatever else is going on).

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-16-2005, 03:34 PM   #29
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I'm sorry Mike - I must be too dense to get the description. Apologies.
No, it's my fault. Basically I was trying to couch in terms of a throw or technique a push or something very simple, straight to the front. Personally, I would be just as happy saying, "Put your right hand on the wall in front of you and push the wall. What makes a push 'kokyu power' and what makes a push just a push? Where do you draw the line in definitions?"
Quote:
All waza should utilize kokyu-ryoku. All waza should utilize kokyu-ryoku to the same level (i.e. as much as possible). Thus, I do not delineate a "Kokyu Nage" but the presence of "kokyu-ryoku. Nor (inversely) do I delineate "Ikkyo" by the absence of "kokyu-ryoku." Both include "kokyu-ryoku -- as should striking, kicking, choking, cutting, stabbing, but also standing and sitting as well, etc.
I completely agree. However, in leaving room for someone to offer a counter-position, I wasn't making a definitive statement. The point I was initially making was that, in my opinion, someone who uses real "kokyu power" in their waza and all movements should be able to easily do the "ki tests" that Tohei demonstrates. I.e., they're all the same thing. However, people may have differing views and rather than insist on the position, I was simply throwing it out for discussion. Perhaps it would be simpler if I just dropped the term "kokyunage" and focused on "what is kokyu-power and how is it used in throws and movements?". Or something along those lines.

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Mike
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Old 07-16-2005, 04:38 PM   #30
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Yikes! I would think kokyu-ryoku is even harder to define. But here goes:

For me, kokyu-ryoku is the perfect coordination of mind coordination and body coordination. "Perfect" here is defined as "in line with the principles or laws of Nature." In waza, these two coordinations cannot be so separated (as they are fully co-dependent) but let us say that the "coordination of body" is referring to the coordination of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki, and te-sabaki -- such that a sense of center becomes tangible, extendable, and grounded. A "coordination of mind" is a fully realized reconciliation of the subject/object dichotomy -- such that one's sense of center adopts a kind of universal aspect and/or an aspect of Oneness. Thus, for me, a technique that contains kokyu-ryoku is a technique that has a very tangible sense of center, is very grounded, and extends along a continuity of Oneness.

I am afraid that I am not very versed in "ki tests," as I am more interested in the religious and social or interpersonal aspects that come to me via the embodying of an extended continuity of Oneness. Therefore, I do not think I can comment upon the topic of "ki tests" and contribute anything worth reading or worth thinking about. Sorry.

Thanks,
david

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Old 07-16-2005, 05:00 PM   #31
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Yikes! I would think kokyu-ryoku is even harder to define. But here goes:
"Kokyu", when you get past the people who think it just means "breath", "timing", etc., is (in the ki/qi paradigm) the physical manifestation of ki. That's why someone's "kokyu" can be seen in shodo, etc. Kokyu ryoku is using that physical manifestation of "ki" for power, like in a push, hit, etc., as opposed to just using it for movement, etc. Shioda tried to simplify what it was in some of the written descriptions in his books, but "simplify" is the operative word... in simplifying you seldom tell the whole story.
Quote:
For me, kokyu-ryoku is the perfect coordination of mind coordination and body coordination. "Perfect" here is defined as "in line with the principles or laws of Nature." In waza, these two coordinations cannot be so separated (as they are fully co-dependent) but let us say that the "coordination of body" is referring to the coordination of tai-sabaki, ashi-sabaki, and te-sabaki -- such that a sense of center becomes tangible, extendable, and grounded. A "coordination of mind" is a fully realized reconciliation of the subject/object dichotomy -- such that one's sense of center adopts a kind of universal aspect and/or an aspect of Oneness. Thus, for me, a technique that contains kokyu-ryoku is a technique that has a very tangible sense of center, is very grounded, and extends along a continuity of Oneness.
OK, but that doesn't tell me the answer to the question. How do you push a wall with kokyu power as opposed to a normal push? I.e., what are the factors that separate a kokyu-powered push from a normal push?
Quote:
I am afraid that I am not very versed in "ki tests,"
But I'm sure that you recognize Tohei's "ki tests" as simple kokyu demonstrations and that the relationship between his "ki tests", "kokyu", and 'kokyu ryoku" is no mystery. Let's just say that if someone really understands and uses "kokyu", they should understand amd be able to use it in simple "kokyu demonstrations" (no matter what they're called) and in Kokyu ryoku. They're all variations of the same basic concept, which is fairly easy to show, IMO. But the best way to approach the discussion is perhaps to start with an analytic look *functionally* at what is the difference between a simple kokyu push and a normal push.

Mike
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Old 07-16-2005, 05:52 PM   #32
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Well I would think that one can just take the opposite of what I said in order to get at what I would think is a "normal push."

For example, (pushing against a wall):

Not being in line with the principles or laws of Nature would be something like attempting to push a wall when barefooted and while standing on a large slate of ice (i.e. attempting a thrusting action with no friction to support it). Many people do things very akin to do this in their waza (i.e. attempting a thrusting action without an engaged based of support that can offer friction to the energy moving away from one's center of mass). A lack of coordination of body would be for example a loss of Directional Harmony -- having one part of the body going one way (e.g. the hips) and one part going the other way (e.g. the arms or hands); such that the body overall is "fighting" against itself and thus directing energy away from pushing the wall. A lack of coordination of mind would be for example an attachment or preoccupation with a subjective experience and/or idea (through things like fear, pride, and ignorance) such that one loses awareness of the total present moment; such that they cannot be totally present in the act of pushing the wall. Etc.

When one or more of these things (or things like them) are present, one is just pushing the wall (i.e. not pushing the wall with kokyu-ryoku).

Outside of these parameters, I am not too keen on saying, "To push a wall with kokyu-ryoku, you push it like this." As abstract as my "qualities" may sound, or as contrary as these descriptives may be in comparison to a list of step-by-step directives (if that is indeed what you are looking for), for me they remain very universal and thus very concrete. Moreover, for me, I do not feel that one can really offer a list of step-by-step descriptives to aid anyone with developing kokyu-ryoku. So I am not at all sure what such a list would even look like. As you can see, in my understanding of kokyu-ryoku I have included a reconciliation of the subject/object dichotomy. This aspect (among others) is not at all supported by any kind of listing of directives.

Having looked up some stuff since my last postů I would say that things like the "cool ki tricks" are not kokyu-ryoku -- as understood by my definition. If anything, they entail only certain aspects of the totality of kokyu-ryoku. Just as a set of descriptives (e.g. put your foot here, bend your knees like this, extend your arm thusly, etc.) might get someone to demonstrate certain aspect of a coordination of body, such "tricks" can only assist someone with some of the aspects of a coordination of mind (e.g. relax) -- not all of them. Thus, personally, I do not see Tohei's tests as simple kokyu demonstrations (the one's I now know of). I see them more as addressing relaxation, which, for me, is part of kokyu-ryoku but not all of it. However, I would conced that if someone can employ kokyu-ryoku they should be able to perform such simple tests of relaxation. By extension, again for me, kokyu-ryoku, if one was to attempt to identify it or to put it up for examination, is best witnessed under spontaneous training conditions.

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-16-2005, 09:54 PM   #33
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Here's my lame attempt...

How about it's aligning your right hand, elbow, hips, hara, (right) knee and foot in a structure that makes it possible to use the ground force to transmit "power". The movement is like fune-kogi undo and identical to a jo tsuki.

The other part of the "trick" has to do with the other person's body alignment, and where their vertical stability is weakest, only that the trick is transmitting the power thru their elbow to their center and out their right knee in a spiral.

Ignatius
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:07 PM   #34
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Re: Defining Kokyu

For me body alignment is not enough. It is only part of what is involved - as I've seen plenty of folks with the proper body alignment go floating across the mat when met by a resistance and/or bounce off a target they were trying to strike.

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Old 07-16-2005, 10:13 PM   #35
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
How about it's aligning your right hand, elbow, hips, hara, (right) knee and foot in a structure that makes it possible to use the ground force to transmit "power". The movement is like fune-kogi undo and identical to a jo tsuki.
"Align" is a tricky word. I often think that the best way to learn to hit or push with your middle is to use a "straight arm" ... the stiffened arm becomes then an undoubted "transmitter" and the "alignment" and muscular tension in the arm keep it strong enough so that you can hit indeed with your middle. But we can't run around straight-arming everything, every time we want to hit with the middle (but hey... it's a good way to get a feel for the idea at first).

So like I've said before, the trick is to not only to learn to use your center but to condition the path to the extremities to (a.) coordinate the transmission of the force and to (b.) be strong enough to handle that transmission.

You can learn to coordinate that transmission with the mind/body things (obviously there are a number of favorite methods, some of which get fairly mystical, etc.)... but the training is usually what's "hidden". "Alignment" becomes what you will it to be.

If you stop and think about it, almost all of the "ki tricks" and kokyu demonstrations are really about strengthening some extremity to be able to convey the forces at the middle out to the extremity. The "jo trick" is an example of exhibiting training of getting kokyu power all the way out to a stick held in your hand. Standing on one leg while someone pushes your forearm is really only getting the power of the ground and middle to your forearm. The unbendable arm is about getting your middle out to your elbow. A kokyu throw is about getting your middle to touch your opponent via some part of your body and propelling him (well, there's some conditioning and maybe a couple of other tricks of training, but the central idea is the same). The being difficult to lift is about training your body to "sink" and yet automatically get your weight to wherever it is being lifted. It's all the same thing, if you think about it.
Quote:
The other part of the "trick" has to do with the other person's body alignment, and where their vertical stability is weakest, only that the trick is transmitting the power thru their elbow to their center and out their right knee in a spiral.
Theoretically, all you should need to know is what his core forces are and adjust yours ("harmonize") accordingly through a good connection (well, if you really are an expert in the understanding and manipulation of someone else's core forces, I guess you could manipulate and throw them with some feints and not need a good connection... we could call that an "aiki" throw).

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:33 PM   #36
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Re: Defining Kokyu

OK, here's a really good way to see if one has the ability to transmit power from center to the extremeties. Have someone grab both your hands (one hand each) from the front and try to throw the person like a rag doll left and right. No straight/unbendable arm stuff, just transmission of power from center to hands, without moving the feet.

Ignatius
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Old 07-17-2005, 06:48 AM   #37
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
OK, here's a really good way to see if one has the ability to transmit power from center to the extremeties. Have someone grab both your hands (one hand each) from the front and try to throw the person like a rag doll left and right. No straight/unbendable arm stuff, just transmission of power from center to hands, without moving the feet.
Throw them how? Kaitenage? It's easiest to learn to bring power to your hands/arms straight ahead because there's less strain on the shoulders and elbows. Too much strain on the shoulders and elbows makes the normal strength kick in and you want to stay relaxed and avoid that.

I think the analysis straight ahead with a push is a fairly clearcut way to try and define what is kokyu power.. and then apply the basics to all directions. Although someone may have a better way they can suggest.


Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 12:07 PM   #38
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Smile Re: Defining Kokyu

Hi guys,
I have been reading this thread with interest mainly because I see in it one of my most frustrating problems in training: Being able to put into words what it is exactly that we do. Not just in our feedback to others but in our "self talk" when trying to explain the principals to ourselves.

Most of us can agree that Aikido can seem very complicated and even overwhelming at times. There are so many different aspects at work in a single movement that we must deal with them separately to really define and develop each one. (An argument for kihon perhaps?) This can be difficult because it is so hard to stick to the subject, so to speak, since many times once we think we have completely isolated and idea we find that we must further address several more aspects individually.

Moreover, since I am not Japanese and was not raised speaking or, more appropriately, "living" Japanese, this task becomes even more complicated. As a result, I find that it becomes easier to get the true meaning of these words from "inside out" as opposed to attempting to translate it to its English equivalent and then apply it to my physical practice. In other words, I find it much easier to develop an understanding of principals in Japanese terminology by allowing them to sink in through physical training. In this way my cognitive process begins to associate the Japanese terms we use to describe Budo principles with English terms that I am already familiar with.


Jason
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Old 07-17-2005, 01:00 PM   #39
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote:
I find it much easier to develop an understanding of principals in Japanese terminology by allowing them to sink in through physical training. In this way my cognitive process begins to associate the Japanese terms we use to describe Budo principles with English terms that I am already familiar with.
Well, I respect your right to an opinion, Jason, but I don't think we're having difficulty translating terms because we don't just practice enough, because they're foreign terms, etc. The real problem, in my opinion, is that despite many aggregate years of training by a number of people in western Aikido, no one showed them how to do some things and as a result they don't know how to do them and therefore it's hard to get substantive conversations off the ground. If all those years of practice by many people didn't work, over a couple of generations, now, do you really think the best solution is just to practice more?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-17-2005, 01:22 PM   #40
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Mike,

What are these "some things"? Are these techniques, drills, practices, traditionally used for developing things like kokyu-ryoku? In some of your posts, you seem to be suggesting that - just wanting to make sure.

thanks,
dmv

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Old 07-17-2005, 01:39 PM   #41
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
What are these "some things"?
Lost me, David. Which message has the "some things" remark and the context?
Quote:
Are these techniques, drills, practices, traditionally used for developing things like kokyu-ryoku? In some of your posts, you seem to be suggesting that - just wanting to make sure.
Certainly there are drills, practices, etc., specifically for developing kokyu-ryoku. All movements in Aikido, not just select few, have kokyu and by extension kokyu-ryoku in them. Aiki-Taiso are good examples. Suburi is another important example. Kokyu-ryoku is the power you develop from moving with kokyu-powered movements. Focused exercises and drills which utilize kokyu repetitively in basic movements (Hey!!! That's what the kihon waza are for!) speed up your development of kokyu power. Doing kihon waza without kokyu and the "Divine Will" (as O-Sensei called "intent") may lead to some kokyu over time, but probably not much. Waiting for your "ki to awaken" is another route where people need to get ready for a long fruitless wait.

Ah... I think I see the "some things". What I meant was that people haven't been shown how to bring kokyu to areas of the body, haven't been taught how to train the body to "sink" effectively, and many other exercises. Most people don't complain. In fact, I think most people finish their Aikido careers without even a clue that they missed the basics because no one showed them or (in many cases) their teacher. My opinion.

Regards,

Mike

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Old 07-17-2005, 01:53 PM   #42
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Mike,
Perhaps I was unclear or didn't understand the original intended subject of this discussion. If so, for that, I apologize.

I am getting the feeling that you took some of my ideas to mean that you are not training enough or properly or whatever. Is that right? If so that was not my intention. I simply wanted to explain a little about where my understanding of our principles comes from so y'all would know where I'm coming from when I posted about this subject again-sorta like introducing myself

Correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that eastern teachers have intentionally withheld information from their western students, and that is why it is so difficult to pinpoint the meaning of/understand/practice Kokyu?

Regards,
Jason

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Old 07-17-2005, 02:10 PM   #43
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote:
I simply wanted to explain a little about where my understanding of our principles comes from so y'all would know where I'm coming from when I posted about this subject again-sorta like introducing myself
No problem, Jason... perhaps I did misunderstand. If you would explain kokyu and it define it in terms of western terms, that was the question at hand.
Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that eastern teachers have intentionally withheld information from their western students, and that is why it is so difficult to pinpoint the meaning of/understand/practice Kokyu?
Yes. They also don't tell all their eastern students, either. If you'll notice, a number of O-Sensei's students went to outside sources for ki and kokyu understanding because O-Sensei didn't show them.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 02:43 PM   #44
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Mike,
I agree, to some extent, that there are teachers that intentionally keep "secrets" to inhibit some peoples progress, however I do not believe that this is the intention of the majority of teachers. I think the vast majority of teachers who fail to pass on these methods of training simply don't know them or have chosen to dismiss them or they don't see the connection ect. Fortunately, I have not had to deal with this sort of thing (that I know of -or not know of ). If anything I have always had way more information than I could process.

Regards,

Jason
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Old 07-17-2005, 02:48 PM   #45
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote:
I agree, to some extent, that there are teachers that intentionally keep "secrets" to inhibit some peoples progress, however I do not believe that this is the intention of the majority of teachers. I think the vast majority of teachers who fail to pass on these methods of training simply don't know them or have chosen to dismiss them or they don't see the connection ect. Fortunately, I have not had to deal with this sort of thing (that I know of -or not know of ). If anything I have always had way more information than I could process.
Hi Jason:

I pretty much agree with you and concur that a lot of stuff is not taught simply because people don't know. Worse yet, many of them have ignored pretty obvious clues that they don't know things. Since you haven't had to deal with it, could you give us the breakdown on kokyu in western terms that we were looking for??

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 03:53 PM   #46
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Re: Defining Kokyu

I sure will try to give you my take on it, Mike. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Well, as I said before there are several different things that need to all be right simultaneously to get that sweet spot feeling in our techniques that we are all looking for. Posture is one, if not the most important of these things without that you loose your abitily to sense your balance in relation to uke's balance/structure, deliver energy efficiently, make evasive movements and changes and breath freely.

Another is simply proper movement which is somewhat, but not not entirely, a result of proper posture. Proper movement in Aikido is accomplished by dropping weight, to move, by simply bending the knee allowing gravity to propel us forward as we position our forward foot and then recover the rearward foot as our weight settles to our new location. I know this sounds simple pimple but it does take some practice. Consider this, most people, before they step with one foot will shift their weight over the opposite foot before bending the knee to LIFT the forward foot. This causes a situation that directly opposes gravity on the body because the rear foot is thrusting the body's weight away from the earth in order to propel it forward essentially making the body much less stable. Totally different mechanics at work here. For a demo just push on a wall with your back leg thrusting and your torso leaning into it then try it by keeping your back strait extending your arms and simply bending your forward knee and let gravity do the rest. You can generate more force on the wall with the thrusting rear leg, head down, gnashing teeth way, but try em both on a wall that changes attitude on you (uke) and you'll see it is much easier to adjust to the moving surface from the proper posture and dropping weight.

Whew! I hope y'all can understand that cause now i'm not sure if I do.

Mull it over...anyway.
Jason
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Old 07-17-2005, 04:35 PM   #47
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote:
I sure will try to give you my take on it, Mike. Of course, this is just my opinion. (snip)
Fair enough, Jason, but "kokyu" includes various demonstrations like the jo-trick O-Sensei did, Tohei's "ki tricks", and so on and so on. I'm not sure how those relate to your "sweet spot", but if you could elucidate, I'd appreciate it. Incidentally, did you study from a western teacher or one of the Japanese teachers?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-17-2005, 05:25 PM   #48
sutemaker17
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Guy's I want to be clear on the fact that I am not a teacher and do not expect you all to follow this as if it were gospel. My main concern is to try to persuade people to open up a little and realize that the stuff we do is really not all that mystical when we describe biophysical phenomena in the light of the best way to apply the natural laws that we are all stuck with like gravity, inertia and goemetry. I would also like to hear everyone else's take. OK?

Mike,
I think we need to go backwards to a somewhat bigger picture if we are going to get into the ki demonstrations. The type of movement mentioned in my last post is only a small example of the total type of muscle training that must take place to be able to accomplish the types of tricks you're talking about. BTW I am not that familiar with all the various types of demos as most of the ki demonstrations I've seen are in the form of really nice techniques.
But, I am familiar with the unbendable arm cause I saw it in a book.

In the same way you use certain muscles to drop instead of thrust with the legs you also use different muscles to hold your arm straight and unable to be bent. Here's why. If I hold my arm out and flex it till ALL my muscles are rigid and then you come up and attempt to bend it by placing your hands in the crook of my elbow and oppose that by resting my wrist on your shoulder it will take very little force to bend my arm by overcoming the triceps because the biceps is opposing it. In other words, I am helping you bend my arm by flexing both the biceps and the triceps simulaneously. However, if I concentrate on flexing the triceps only you will not be able to bend it. That is why they tell you to focus the ki flowing out your hand like a hose because this picture tends to induce the triceps only flex. Simple. Another possibility that makes this even more effective is that while you were getting set up on the arm just before you get your posture and feet set up correctly to apply force the demonstrator has changed his position in relation to you very slightly (by taking a little weight off one leg or vectoring by pivoting the hips) and taken your balance so you cannot exert force from a strong position without first adjusting your feet.

Oh! And my teachers are all American Westerners.

What does everone else think?
Jason

Last edited by sutemaker17 : 07-17-2005 at 05:29 PM. Reason: spealing lol
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Old 07-17-2005, 06:07 PM   #49
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

All movement is mechanical and can be explained. Once you mention the ki word, all logic goes out the window.

When I was young I had a job in a steelworks - I was a radiographer, lots of lifting stuff all day, but quite cushy by comparison to others. Occasionally, when we had little to do we were sent here and there to help out. A frequent 'excursion' was to the smelting area and I had to fill the crucible with small cut-offs of steel plate. It was only a small crucible and only took 1 ton of steel and the fork-lift truck couldn't get near it. I had to shovel the stuff in, walking back and forth. Needless to say, it was back-breaking work. However, the old-timers, many in their late 50s, would laugh at me. Indeed, they had done it twice a day for many, many years. My technique was really no different to theirs, rather, their bodies were accustomed to it. But in an Aikido context, lacking explanation, they would probably have advised me to - "Use yer ki lad!" And they would have been right, but I would have been none the wiser.

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Old 07-17-2005, 06:45 PM   #50
eyrie
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

I agree Rupert. Using the "whole" body as a connected series of springs, fulcrums and levers is far more efficient kinesthetically. Can this be defined as "kokyu" then?

In answer to Mike's earlier question.

Quote:
Throw them how? Kaitenage? It's easiest to learn to bring power to your hands/arms straight ahead because there's less strain on the shoulders and elbows. Too much strain on the shoulders and elbows makes the normal strength kick in and you want to stay relaxed and avoid that.

I think the analysis straight ahead with a push is a fairly clearcut way to try and define what is kokyu power.. and then apply the basics to all directions. Although someone may have a better way they can suggest.
Simple! No technique! Just use your kokyu power from center to hands and spiral the power left or right thru uke's center and manipulate their center thusly. My teacher Takeda Yoshinobu and some of my sempai can do, have done this to me. I have felt it. I'm close to doing it occasionally, but not as consistently as I would like.

Ignatius
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