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Old 08-06-2005, 11:33 PM   #76
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs....

Dustin,

Good point Ueshiba did study Daito ryu Aikijujutsu! I believe under Takeda? Aikido encompasses quite a bit more than Aikido. I agree that cross training in MA, will take time, or focus away from a single MA training, and one will probably not master either by doing so. But aside from that, where does this negative Idea of cross-training come from?
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:26 AM   #77
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido vs....

There is nothing wrong with crosstraining! What gets me irritated is people who keep saying that aikido will be beaten by almost any other art or random brawler. Or that aikido is nothing but a small set of skills that are only effective when applied with force and in conjunction with other skills. Nobody has yet said that if O Sensei went up against ??? he would be beaten, or that the powers that be in the aikido world would be beaten by ???. If a person with six months experience can throw a grown man across the mat today, why can he not throw a grown man in a bar across the room with 5 years of throwing people across the room?

A large part of my frusturation probably comes from the fact that I am not being taught in a normal manner by the average person and I am definately not being taught aikido. I am being taught DR by a 5'6" 140 lbs bouncer/police officer who has worked in situations that required a no strike policy for the last 20 years and who hated being trained in the traditional way because it was no longer applicable.

Yep, Ueshiba was under Takeda for quite a while until he (U) became very caught up in the Omoto-Kyo.
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Old 08-07-2005, 10:39 AM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

Dustin, applicable for what?

It depends on your goals. I study much differently with my Army Combatives program than I do in aikido. One does not negate the other though.

What matters is your personal goals.

If it is to become an effective bouncer, police officer, or to develop skills as a member of the military to assist you with clearing buildings, then aikido is probably not the most effective methodology for training. Certainly there are aspects of the art that are. I always draw from my aikido background to teach guys, but I am not doing aikiDO.

If your focus is in studying the path or way to peace and harmony...I can really think of no bettter way than aikido. Taiji Chaun is a bit esoteric for me it kinda skirts the whole conflict thing and is really like a PhD program. Aikido strikes a good balance between the internal skills, center/balance and principles and dealing with attacks....(sort of like a Masters Degree). Where as karate DO, tends to be more external.

It is not Aikido vs..... it is really ridiculous to take a DO art and apply it to a limited scenario.

I'd say the traditional methods are relevant to the traditional goals.

What we are finding today is that as people mature in the martial arts in the west...that there is much more out there that can be accomplished and there is no one path. Guys like your instructor have found that the traditional ways are not the best way to train for those that have goals other than following the DO.

What we see is that MMAs are becoming legitimate in their own right...it does not discredit the DO, but may discredit it as a path for a particular individual.

I find it interesting that DO arts evolved from the SU arts. We saw the DO arts brought to the west really since WWII. Now we are seeing the DO arts evolve back into the SU arts as those that have studied them are rediscovering the roots of what the DO arts were based on!
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Old 08-07-2005, 01:55 PM   #79
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido vs....

What we are finding today is that as people mature in the martial arts in the west...that there is much more out there that can be accomplished and there is no one path. Guys like your instructor have found that the traditional ways are not the best way to train for those that have goals other than following the DO.

Exactly! And keep in mind I'm in a SU art not a DO art.

I find it interesting that DO arts evolved from the SU arts. We saw the DO arts brought to the west really since WWII. Now we are seeing the DO arts evolve back into the SU arts as those that have studied them are rediscovering the roots of what the DO arts were based on!

I think that it is possible that the DO arts are the same as they always were, but for a time DO arts became more of a cult-like spritual movement because in the West the understanding of the principles and the cultural connotations were lost. Just a thought.
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:09 PM   #80
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

i suspose it is possible....i think though that there are many who went to the DO arts (and plenty of people that are still involved in them) because it was the only game in town and they frankly do not/did not know the difference.

I find the majority of the conversations we have here on aikiweb are over people confused in their paradigm and expectations of what DO and SU arts are.

I believe simply that there are people out there now that have figured it out and have the experience to teach things now.
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:15 PM   #81
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs....

Consider the source of your info.

If you encounter one person that knows an art well enough to cross-train, that's probably rare. If you know a person who know two arts well enough to direct you in both to high levels...well, I'd check their credentials.
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:26 PM   #82
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
I think that it is possible that the DO arts are the same as they always were, but for a time DO arts became more of a cult-like spritual movement because in the West the understanding of the principles and the cultural connotations were lost. Just a thought.
Extremely well said imho. From my understanding, the difference is a lot more subtle than some westerners may want to believe.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:23 PM   #83
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
You're a student of Roy Harris? I'm jealous! I've got his video on leg locks and it is great. Roy Harris seems to be a very gifted instructor from the videos I have seen of him and the articles I have read that were written by him.

I have to ask, have you had discusssions with him in regards to aikido? His opinons on it's training methods? Techniques? I think it would be great to talk to him about it.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:28 PM   #84
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
Roy Harris seems to be a very gifted instructor from the videos I have seen of him and the articles I have read that were written by him.
True dat. Ask anyone what instructionals a BJJ newbie should look at and Roy Harris is usually the first name out of their mouth.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-12-2005, 10:11 AM   #85
Roy Dean
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

Keith and Michael,

Indeed, I am very fortunate to train under Mr. Harris. He truly is a young master and gifted teacher, I can't say enough about how he's advanced my BJJ skills. He's a living example that you can train in multiple arts and achieve expert status in each.

I've talked with him at length about Aikido, and his take (as well as Dan Inosanto's) is this: It all boils down to training method. All arts can be effective, but you have to do attribute training to fuel your techniques, and do plenty of non-resistant repetitions (kata) before graduating to a "live" environment. But that last step has to take place.

Whenever he gets kotegaeshi on someone while grappling, Mr. Harris playfully shouts "AIKIDO!" as the person goes down. It's also on some of his instructionals. He loves that lock and loves to show that yes, these techniques DO work. It's all about how you train them...

Roy Dean
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:05 PM   #86
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Aikido vs....

The decision to study only one art should be made based on an understanding of that arts advantages and it's limitations. Limitations are a big part of aikido practice, and I focus on aikido training because of them. Having enjoyed the taste of my own blood a few times, I kinda dig the fixes in the game.
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Old 08-14-2005, 07:15 PM   #87
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

Roy - yes I've noticed the Aikido calls in the BJJ 101 tapes. I myself have been known to let forth with the requisite "Aikido Wins!" call when I get a wristlock while rolling. At one of the places where I train there's a BJJ purple (judo blackbelt) who knows I'm an Aikido guy so takes great delight in wristlocking the hell out of me. Just goes to show, once you control position you can finish pretty much any way you want to :-)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-15-2005, 02:08 AM   #88
Jorx
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Re: Aikido vs....

No disrespect to Roy Harris - he has done very much for the BJJ community. It's just for example me and my teachers completely disagree on his training methods

Also... I would watch his instructionals when suffering from insomnia and be surely cured

Just to point out that his way is not the only way...

BTW... I also heard that Michael Jen, a student of Roy Harris (who IMHO has much better instructionals than Harris) when he used to compete back in the day he yelled after a win by wristlock in competitions "Aikido wins!" everyone else seemed pissed
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Old 08-15-2005, 05:48 AM   #89
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

what is it about his training method you disagree with Jorgen, out of interest...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-15-2005, 11:33 AM   #90
Roy Dean
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

Jorgen,

Yes, there are some that disagree with his training methods, but they've been effective for him, and while I believe "aliveness" is necessary, without repetition at some point in your training, the precision of technique suffers. Matt Thornton and Roy Harris disagree strongly on this point.

Michael Jen has NEVER competed in a BJJ or submission grappling tournament. He did do a few Judo competitions as a brown belt in BJJ, though, when he was working out with the San Jose State Judo team.

I'm glad you like his instructionals, though. People like different instructionals for different reasons. Some like concepts, some like to be entertained, some like to see as many different techniques for their dollar as they can. For some reason, most of Mike Jen's videos remind me of a private lesson with Joe Moreira. Joe is an encylopedia of techniques!

Roy Dean
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Old 08-15-2005, 07:29 PM   #91
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

So the detractors of Roy Harris have a problem with the mix of drilling/live training?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-15-2005, 08:58 PM   #92
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido vs....

Speaking of Mr. Harris and Aikido wrist locks, I found this browsing around over at his site.
http://www.royharris.com/index.php?o...924&Itemid=163


Keith Lee
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