Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-04-2005, 12:57 PM   #51
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Can you explain what you mean here a bit further? I'm a little unsure, because no form of Aiki will work without proper body unification, be it Aikido style aiki or bjj style aiki. So perhaps I've misunderstood?.
I'd say that if there's no unification, it's not Aikido (this applies to another topic where I misused Aikido also.). However, I learned hand work before I learned body work (unification). So, although I'd agree with you that what I do on the ground is not Aikido (if body isn't unified), it's the result of Aikido training and therefore makes the point that I'm going for.

As far as the hand work goes, I've never really felt that techniques were taught "hand connected to feet" or "hand connected to hip connected to feet." I've always felt that it was "hand in relation to chest"...then the rest gets connected. (Actually, reading "Aikido Exercises for Training and Teaching" confirmed this just today in Yoshinkan...atleast that's my interpretation of what it meant.) So, for me when you say,"Once you're on the ground you can't step (obviously). You need to shrimp, cut, hip escape, reverse shrimp, base switch etc." I respond, that's not a problem, my first understanding of my body, via Aikido, is how my hand position related to my body.

Further, in Aikido, I've learned an incredible amount about my knees, elbows, hips, and the rest of my body as they individually relate to my body.

Keep in mind, again, I'm not saying that an Aikidoka could walk off the street into a BJJ or JJ dojo and start smashing their top students. I'm just saying the basics are there.

However, your issue with what I'm saying is the speed at which you pick up the arts. I don't have an argument against that. If you want to learn some ground stuff, I can't say that you wouldn't benefit from some cross-training (If I knew everything, I'd even say it was beneficial).

However, because you didn't respond to my "walking through water" post, I'm wondering what your position is on it. I'm wondering if you've never experienced a real technique--in either role?

The way you described a technique (being where uke is heading) compared to mine, brings me to interpret that you haven't experienced it, where as I, describe what it feels like to muscle it.

I sincerely do not intend this as an attack. I'm just saying that if that's the case, maybe cross-training has done you a disservice. Possible?

Another thing, in the one post, I clearly mention the heel. Do you know what the heel means to unification in Aikido? I don't know what it means to BJJ, but it's major for us as Aikidoka. If cross-training has done you so well, how is it that you missed it?

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a ****...but I'm totally confused.

After ten plus years, is it possible that splitting your attention has prevented you from reaching the high levels of either art?

Do you think the greats of Aikido could be taken down consistently by the greats of BJJ? (serious question)


That's all for now.

BTW, that last post, definitely true. I was more just talking smack. However, you may want to consider your own advice and be cautious about what you post. On a less pleasant day, I'd of been offended
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 01:07 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Jean wrote:
[/quote] Do you think the greats of Aikido could be taken down consistently by the greats of BJJ? (serious question)[quote]

In what rules? what would be the parameters? You have to establish this up front. You pick the rules...and don't say "no rules". cause I'd say the guy who seizes the advantage first, has a superior weapon, or has buddies.

If you are talking empty hand, defined boundaries...only two dudes...well then that is a different story. One we may never know sense we have never seen (or I haven't) a guy who professes to be pure aikido climb into a ring with a BJJ guy or MMA guy. We have plenty of BJJ guys that have...but no aikido guys.

Jean I really don't understand your pontification about the "higher points" of the arts. From your post I'd say you are not all that qualified to judge the "higher points"...(nor am I)....btw...what are the higher points...can you define them? Better yet...can you demonstrate them?

Plenty of us can get on here and talk about the "higher points" theory is great...that is why we have educators in academa....but it is "C" students that usually go out in the real world and put it into practice...I'd like to be able to do both...but if I had a choice...i'd rather be a well rounded "C" student.

In all seriousness...I'd love to have a discussion on what the "higher points" of aikido or MA are. How do we know when we get there? What happens to us once we reach there?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 01:08 PM   #53
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Do you know what the heel means to unification in Aikido? I don't know what it means to BJJ, but it's major for us as Aikidoka.
I'm curious. What about the heel is so important for unificaiton, in your opinion? Compared to say the ball of my foot? or my ankle? knee? hip? spine? Please elaborate.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 01:13 PM   #54
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
I'd love to have a discussion on what the "higher points" of aikido or MA are.
My opinion is that intermediate points of aikido are that you can avoid directly pushing, pulling, lifting, yanking, cranking (using sudden and jerky movements), threatening (with non-violence?!), and still be able to unfiy with the partner in such a way that they cannot do much about the overall movement because they are continueing to contribute to it. Higher than that, well, I think that you can do those thing (being true to principle) against people who are actively trying to resist you and hurt you. What do you think?

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 01:20 PM   #55
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Kevin, I'd like to think that's it's not "pontification."

But, on the "higher points": I think the levels that are always described by people who've been uke for those people..."just when I was about to make contact," "this time I thought I had him," "it was like floating in the air," "He always had his balance"...those types of levels.

There's occasions in your training where something happens and it seems so perfect that you know it must be "it".

Regarding Rules: Take it at face-value...assume that which hasn't been mentioned.

Regarding the "C" student: Sure. Then we all should shut off our computers.


Rob: It's where motion is rooted in an advancing movement (could be the case with backing up too...I don't know yet.). Sure, you've got the toe and ball to the floor, but you don't add the ankle (an unnecessary joint) for forward-motion unification.


Honestly guys, I'm not trying to be rude about any of that. It's all serious stuff to me...worth sincere discussion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 01:34 PM   #56
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

thanks for the description Jean. Believe it or not, it happens in BJJ too! If you get with a really skilled buy like Royce Gracie...he will throw you around like a rag doll and it will feel like you are floating...no different from aikido.

The problem with BJJ is mainly that it exploded so fast that you have lots of good dudes out there that have not achieved the mastery of 20 years of training full time. Aikido tends to be a more etheral and mature art. It has been in the states for a while now and we have many, many good practioners.

BJJ though is still in it's infancy...but some really good guys are coming along.

I am really not following you on the heal thing. Are you talking about rooting the connection to the earth...that kind of thing?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 04:17 PM   #57
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

I don't think "root" was a good word to use. I figured, after writing it, that you could also say that movement is rooted in the center, etc. Awful confusing.

If you push a wall, to get the most power, you don't get the ball of the foot involved (not in the path of power atleast), you push against the heel.

I hope that's better. It's been difficult enough to get the sensation while training, let alone describe it
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 06:03 PM   #58
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

To clarify: nage's hands are at his (nage's) own chest, not way up in the air. Also the MMA guy is always overbalanced/off-balanced foward when they punch from the full mount. I am well aware of how the mount works and how MMA operates, been there done that. It can be done, but you have to remember the rules for doing any technique, particularly 1. Create one heck of an offset- take the wrist/fist coming at you and direct it as far across uke's body as possbile, try to make it contact the floor outside the line of your shoulder 2. Keep it fluid - bringing the arm that far across his body releases the pressure on yours so that if you roll/bridge (do not shirmp or it will not work) with uke's arm (which should be fully extended) and body (offset already) lateral resistance is almost nullified. 3. Lock Uke up NOW - if you are dealing with someone who managed to get you on the ground and mount you he is dangerous and has some experience on the ground, you cannot afford to be nice or peaceful, put on that ikkyo until his arm is about to break and he ceases all movement -- he stops or loses his arm

This is not by any means meant to be a defenative way to slap ikkyo on a MMA/BJJ person at all. It is just a simple drill to help someone learn to apply ikkyo on the ground and learn the principles of motion on the ground and where the energy is. This is just like the armbar from the guard that they teach you when you start BJJ or ikkyo when you start Aikido. I've seen plenty of armbars from the guard exactly as taught to the beginner. As I said, try it with a partner in a cooperative atmosphere and see what you think, dont knock it until you have tried it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 06:24 PM   #59
Roy Dean
 
Roy Dean's Avatar
Dojo: Roy Dean Academy
Location: Bend, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 160
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

"I always wonder if BJJ goes where aikido can eventually go in terms of much more sophisticated body skills."

Let's look at the development of coordinated body skills in BJJ, for those interested parties:

White belt and blue belt: Everything is done with the hands, pushing for escapes, pushing the legs down to pass guard, etc.

High blue and purple belt: The legs are discovered, and used more for sweeping, passing guard, and manipulating balance. Palms of hands and soles of feet are the dominant tools.

High purple and brown: More proficient use of all appendages, particularly the knees, elbows, and head. Knees are used for pushing and pulling forward, backwards, left, and right; the instep of the foot is used more for lifting, and the head is used as a third hand. Guard passing is done with far less use of hands, and can often be accomplished using only your legs, while your arms are immobile and anchored under their torso. To be able to isometrically hold and apply pressure with one half of your body while being fluid and mobile with the other is a challenging aspect of physical coordination.

Black: I'll let you know when I get there...

RonJon, as far as Aikido giving you the basics of BJJ, I think you're partially correct, but not in the way you'd expect. The taijutsu skills and footwork of aikido have little bearing (initially), to the ground.

It's the ukemi that sets Aikidoist ahead on ground. Knowing how to roll, how to flow with resistance, and how to generate momentum by turning your body into a ball is the greatest asset Aikidoists have.

Humans are the rationalizing animal- we can convince ourselves of anything. Experience has been my greatest instructor, truth stick, and humility device. Go to a BJJ school and roll around. Test things out. Enter a submission grappling tournament (all Aikido techniques are generally allowed). Do it! You will learn more than you than you think from your endeavors. Good luck!


Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Last edited by Roy Dean : 08-04-2005 at 06:37 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 07:16 PM   #60
csinca
 
csinca's Avatar
Dojo: Various
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
Go to a BJJ school and roll around. Test things out.
Best information in these three pages. If your question is about another art, substitute it in place of BJJ...

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 08:24 AM   #61
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Dustin and Roy, nice posts.

Ikkyo is an arm bar. If you set it up correctly, works like a charm. Especially if you combine the ikkyo entry with hiji shime, ude garame, ude osae.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 01:31 PM   #62
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Bright as the sun and you still couldn't show a blind man light.

Come on folks. Did you read the posts talking about knees, elbows, etc.? Oh!?

Did you compare my Aikido experience to yours?

What is it, you're dropping in without responding to the points already made?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 01:37 PM   #63
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
My opinion is that intermediate points of aikido are that you can avoid directly pushing, pulling, lifting, yanking, cranking (using sudden and jerky movements), threatening (with non-violence?!), and still be able to unfiy with the partner in such a way that they cannot do much about the overall movement because they are continueing to contribute to it. Higher than that, well, I think that you can do those thing (being true to principle) against people who are actively trying to resist you and hurt you. What do you think?

Rob
I think the unification is just a preliminary step in a technique. After that's accomplished, uke is there for you to do what you see as necessary--push, pull, twist, etc.

I reread your question about the significance of the heel...I previously ignored that it was a question about comparison. All of them are important, however, I think someone experienced with unification would have recognized what mentioning the heel signified. That's what the point of the original post was...not to say that one thing's less important than another.


One other thing, on the importance of the heel vs. ball of foot/toe. I think, in my desire to get to my point, I expressed under-estimation in the importance of the ball/toe. That's not the intent...more intended to say that power flow down a path. If your knee is the last point, then power will be fulcrumed there, if the heel is the last point, then from there.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 08-05-2005 at 01:40 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 01:50 PM   #64
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Hi Jean,

The post before the last one has me a little confused...what exactly is it in reference too?

Sorry,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 01:53 PM   #65
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Roy Dean mainly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 02:13 PM   #66
csinca
 
csinca's Avatar
Dojo: Various
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Since I've started visiting this forum, I've seen a BUNCH of "Aikido vs...." threads. Of course, one group says this, the other says that...

In relation to that, first, I'd like to say: Consider the source. How many of us, after years of training, really understand Aikido to really say what Aikido can do? I doubt there's anyone. I figure, I can only respond with what I think I can do against this or that utilizing the Aikido techniques I know...but none of us know Aikido...Shioda said in the 90's that he was just catching on to it...how many years of training is that?

Find a "Master" and ask him/her the question.

Ultimately, I think to compare one art to another you'd have to know the techniques of both of them...you'd need to be, or ask, a someone who's a "Master" of both arts.

However, seems to me, you could take every technique from one art and say,,"is there a technique in the Aikido repertoire to counter this. If the answer is "no" then the question becomes, does Aikido offer an option that could of been utilized to avoid being in the position where that technique is applicable?

So, for anyone to answer those questions, I hope they've done a lot of homework. That's all.

I'm just jumping in here and saying that some of that homework be done on someone else's mat. If you want to evaluate aikido vs. BJJ (in this particular case) then you also have to have an understand of BJJ, and you need to get into a BJJ class to do that homework.

Going back to the Kali thread, if you want to understand how aikido provides options against Kali (or a stick oriented art) then your homework should include some time in and with that art.

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 03:17 PM   #67
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
I'm just jumping in here and saying that some of that homework be done on someone else's mat. If you want to evaluate aikido vs. BJJ (in this particular case) then you also have to have an understand of BJJ, and you need to get into a BJJ class to do that homework.

Going back to the Kali thread, if you want to understand how aikido provides options against Kali (or a stick oriented art) then your homework should include some time in and with that art.

Chris

Geeze. What you're responding to is a tangent from the initial idea. The tangent seems to be an effort to demonstrate that Aikido principles can be practiced by an Aikidoka on the ground...it was not an assessment of BJJ or any other art beyond that.

Regarding the Kali thread (which should probably have been stated there): A point of this thread...and a point a made in that one...is that all arts are rooted in body movement. Aikido trains to recognize body movements. Unless Kali or any other MA has figured out a way to contradict the thus-far ways in which the human body moves, regardless of weapon held, Aikido trains for it.

You should be practicing right now instead of playing.

Hehehe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 04:14 PM   #68
csinca
 
csinca's Avatar
Dojo: Various
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 66
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Okay, I suggest that the "homework" that you mentioned in your initial post might include experiencing other arts and it would appear you disagree with me. If you are of the opinion that you can find everything you are looking for in aikido then life is good.

Have a great weekend!

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2005, 06:42 PM   #69
Roy Dean
 
Roy Dean's Avatar
Dojo: Roy Dean Academy
Location: Bend, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 160
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Bright as the sun and you still couldn't show a blind man light.

Come on folks. Did you read the posts talking about knees, elbows, etc.? Oh!?

Did you compare my Aikido experience to yours?

What is it, you're dropping in without responding to the points already made?

I am choosing to respond to specific questions, where I feel I have experience that may be useful to others.

RonJon, listen up. You may think you're particularly talented, or disciplined, or have some kind of cerebral/conceptual edge because of your devotion to Aikido. Believe me, many many many posters on this forum have been where you're at and gone far, far beyond. I would display a little more humility, as some highly experienced budoka have openly offered insights that could really put you ahead in the learning curve. I am not the blind one, my friend.

If you really want to compare experiences, Aikido or otherwise, I am certainly game. But people can talk or post for hours and not really achieve ANYTHING if the parties involved are closed off to what's being offered.

If you really want to know the answers to your questions, you have to FEEL them, then you'll realize some degree of truth. Actually experience techniques. Enough with the books and anecdotes. They'll cast an Aiki-spell on you that will detach you from reality. Ground yourself through testing your skills. From the heel up.

You have an open invitation to come to my grappling class, where I teach a BJJ curriculum to many talented and dedicated Aikidoka. They see the light, recognize the value of cross-training, and grow from the alternate training methods offered. I can only hope you will evolve into such an open minded Budoka.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 12:52 AM   #70
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
Location: San Francisco, CA USA
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 178
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I was also working with a greco roman wrestler today. He showed me a russian...he said it is the basic starting point for all take downs in G-R. What is interesting about it...is that it is Ikkyo!
Love the Russian tie -- if it's what I think it is, also known as two on one? I think of it as "upside-down" ikkyo, or "ikkyo after I've screwed up the normal ikkyo".

sorry about the slight OT, now return you to your regularly scheduled argument^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussion.

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 08:48 AM   #71
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

agree with you Roy.

Nothing wrong with aikido...and nothing wrong with cross training. It is all depended on what achieves your goals.


WIlly: yea sounds like we are talking about the same thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 04:25 PM   #72
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

If you train in two MAs, you will limit your growth in such a way that you will not catch on to either.

That's it. I this thread has ended up demonstrating that.

Thanks folks. Your help has been appreciated.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 07:07 PM   #73
Roy Dean
 
Roy Dean's Avatar
Dojo: Roy Dean Academy
Location: Bend, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 160
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

"If you train in two MAs, you will limit your growth in such a way that you will not catch on to either."

Minoru Mochizuku would disagree, as would Morihei Ueshiba. But what do they know...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 07:42 PM   #74
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
If you train in two MAs, you will limit your growth in such a way that you will not catch on to either.

That's it. I this thread has ended up demonstrating that.

Thanks folks. Your help has been appreciated.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 11:01 PM   #75
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido vs....

Wow! I though this thread proved that we did not know enough aikido to ever claim that we knew anything about it....did I miss something??? I also thought it was supposed to prove that you could not make an Aikido vs ? post because since you don't know aikido you cannot know if you could defend yourself because it might not be "true" aikido??

And as to training 2 MAs keeping you from progressing in either: the samurai were expeced to be proficient with the sword (kenjitsu), spear (sojitsu or yarijitsu), bow (kyujitsu), swimming, horsemanship, knife (tantojitsu), staffs (bo and jo jitsu), and to top it off they were expected to have a functional knowledge of the courtly disciplines -- calligraphy, poetry, literacy, etc. when they were not at war. Sokaku Takeda was said to have mastered all 18 traditional martial arts -- I dare you to tell him or anyone in his faimly that they are stupid and hindering themselves because Daito generally comes complete with all the basic weapons curriculum as well as jujitsu and aikijujitsu levels. O Sensei at the least studied the sword, spear and Daito Ryu. I agree that training in two seprate arts is in general not a good idea, but since MAs are a hobby and not a lifestyle anymore it is sometimes the only way. It is better to study one thing at a time and really throw yourself into it, but it just isn't possible most of the time if you value eating or if you need a wide variety of skills relatively quickly.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Cool Rain Productions - Since 1976, the exclusive source for "Aikido in Training" Book/DVD Series



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 09:31 AM
Mixing Aikido with other martial arts Guilty Spark General 146 05-04-2008 11:10 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 08:27 PM
Aikido: Its Spirit and Technique TAnderson General 0 02-27-2007 08:50 AM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 12:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:07 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate