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Old 08-01-2005, 11:54 AM   #26
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Let me put it another way. You or I could go and give a lecture on the pincipals of Aikido. We could sit people down in classroom with a whiteboard and explain how it all works why it makes sesnse from a physics point of view etc. and they could really get it and understand exactly what Aikido is looking to accomplish and how. But understanding does not imply competence. We wouldn't expect them to be able to go and start using techniques without having had done the physical training right?
I'd like to add something to this example that makes it a closer comparison for me.

If you showed those people photo after photo of Aikido techniques and explained how it was working (I think that's what you're saying) and then showed them photo after photo of different ground positions, then wouldn't they be able to point out where the Aiki principles would be applicable? I mean, if you say they totally understand the imagery and ideas, shouldn't they see the same relationships in photos that you see in practice?

If you'll agree to that, doesn't it also seem comparable that a person of equal understanding of the practical side of Aikido, in addition to the above understanding, would be able to see it and express it on the ground?

Now, I know pictures aren't a very good substitute, but I picked up a book on BJJ. I'm looking at all these positions and it's clear as a bell to me which Aikido technique goes where. Don't get me wrong--there's plenty of pictures where you know your a** is done...but it'd be the same if the picture was of an all-direction that's completed.

I'm thinking that, sure it's a push, but, the recognition is so quick, I think it'd be reflex. It's all the same techniques--just without the same type of unification we have.

I think the disagreement is that I believe if you truly understand the principles and your body, you can apply them on the ground.

Just to see (not that I claim to know them that well), I'm heading down to a BJJ club to play for a spell. I'll report my findings.


On the last question of using the techniques without the physical training. I don't see that as being similar in principle to what we're talking about. I think, as Aikidoka, we have done that stuff--we've trained with grasps to the lappells (sp?), wrists and arms.

Seems like the major difference appears to be that the energy will generally be coming toward you and the redirection (pivot) of energy will be very tight.


On "reinventing the wheel." Absolutely, there are limits. However, returning to the original point of "Aikido vs.," seems like the limitation would be set by the practitioner...not the art.


On "Aiki on the ground is BJJ", etc.: Nice point. If Gracie had stood on his feet and applied what appeared to be an Aikido technique but was definitely in the reportoire of BJJ, then we'd call that BJJ only because of what he trains in. We'd do the same if it was an Aikidoka on the ground. The differentiation is insignificant...I think.

That goes back to the original point: Aikido vs.

I think you pointed it out earlier (if not this thread, another) your position is the training differs. I wouldn't disagree. But, I'd say that that doesn't contradict what I'm saying. If two Aikidoka got together and went to the ground applying Aiki, would it be BJJ or Aikido? Aikido of course--they have no other point of reference.

Would they be effective? I think they'd be as effective as someone training both part-time. I think that's what it boils down to.
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Old 08-01-2005, 04:53 PM   #27
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs....

Sean,

Boy! oh, boy!! You sure got a good grip on all this Aiki stuff !! So, you will do great in BJJ.
Please let me know your findings at the BJJ club?
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Old 08-01-2005, 05:42 PM   #28
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs....

Sure thing! Big Fella. I hope if I don't do well you'll start to feel a little better about yourself.
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Old 08-01-2005, 06:39 PM   #29
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
If you showed those people photo after photo of Aikido techniques and explained how it was working (I think that's what you're saying) and then showed them photo after photo of different ground positions, then wouldn't they be able to point out where the Aiki principles would be applicable? I mean, if you say they totally understand the imagery and ideas, shouldn't they see the same relationships in photos that you see in practice?
I'm not sure they would. Maybe. But it's hard to know how to apply Aiki in a situation without an understanding of where the energy is going which is hard to get from a photo. Lets not dwell on this too much
Quote:

If you'll agree to that, doesn't it also seem comparable that a person of equal understanding of the practical side of Aikido, in addition to the above understanding, would be able to see it and express it on the ground?
The problem is no one can. Because it takes alot of experience to understand the energy flow in that context - it's quite different to standing. *maybe* after years of trying two pure Aikidoka may come up with similar techniques - but again, why take years for something someone can show you in a class
Quote:
Now, I know pictures aren't a very good substitute, but I picked up a book on BJJ. I'm looking at all these positions and it's clear as a bell to me which Aikido technique goes where. Don't get me wrong--there's plenty of pictures where you know your a** is done...but it'd be the same if the picture was of an all-direction that's completed.
Ok this is sounding interesting. Can you give an example. The book should tell you what the BJJ term is for the position they are in, if you could explain what you think your solution to that position is, it might help us understand what you mean.
Quote:
. It's all the same techniques--just without the same type of unification we have.
Can you explain what you mean here a bit further? I'm a little unsure, because no form of Aiki will work without proper body unification, be it Aikido style aiki or bjj style aiki. So perhaps I've misunderstood?
Quote:
I think the disagreement is that I believe if you truly understand the principles and your body, you can apply them on the ground.
I agree that this is the heart of the disagreement. I certainly think I'm capable of progressing faster in BJJ in some respects because of my understanding of Aiki. But I certainly don't think someone can take the principals they've learned in a traditional aikido dojo and instantly make them work on the ground without training. You may have a head start on the untrained doofus, but against someone bigger, stronger, or trained, you'll need to practice and ideally, be shown how aiki is manifested in the physical techniques of BJJ.
Quote:

On the last question of using the techniques without the physical training. I don't see that as being similar in principle to what we're talking about. I think, as Aikidoka, we have done that stuff--we've trained with grasps to the lappells (sp?), wrists and arms.

Seems like the major difference appears to be that the energy will generally be coming toward you and the redirection (pivot) of energy will be very tight.
Actually the major difference is that you can't move the same way. The first thing you get taught in Aikido is footwork. How to move your body in such a way as to facilitate the techniques. Once you're on the ground you can't step (obviously). You need to shrimp, cut, hip escape, reverse shrimp, base switch etc. There's a whole new series of physical movements you need to learn to be able to move your body fluently on the ground so you can apply aiki (imagine trying to do aikido without moving your lower body, and this is what it would be like trying to fight on the ground without learning these new movements). It's like learning to walk again.
Quote:

On "Aiki on the ground is BJJ", etc.: Nice point. If Gracie had stood on his feet and applied what appeared to be an Aikido technique but was definitely in the reportoire of BJJ, then we'd call that BJJ only because of what he trains in. We'd do the same if it was an Aikidoka on the ground. The differentiation is insignificant...I think.
Hmmm...perhaps you misunderstand? I don't mean that BJJ is Aikido techniques applied on the ground. BJJ is a set of techniques that are completely seperate to aikido (in the main), but with similar principals - unbalancing an opponent to a weak point, alighing your body againse their weekness, keeping a strong centre, captilising on their likely next move etc. But the techniques are entirely different. My point was you can't claim omoplata as an Aikido technique just because it uses the same basic principals as Aikido.
I would make a case that as the principals are so similar, BJJ techniques would be at home in an Aikido syllabus but that's another discussion. The point is that whatever the underlying principals to a technique may be, if no one trains it in an Aikido class and no pure Aikidoka can pull it off, it seems silly to call it an Aikido technique.
Quote:
That goes back to the original point: Aikido vs.

I think you pointed it out earlier (if not this thread, another) your position is the training differs. I wouldn't disagree. But, I'd say that that doesn't contradict what I'm saying. If two Aikidoka got together and went to the ground applying Aiki, would it be BJJ or Aikido?
It would be neither. It would be a mess of bodies that quickly degenerate into a strength battle.
Quote:
Aikido of course--they have no other point of reference.

Would they be effective? I think they'd be as effective as someone training both part-time.
I train both. Not sure I'd say part time. On the ground, I will guarantee you I will dominate any pure Aikidoka whatever the rank. Not blowing my trumpet, I'm pretty average at BJJ, but BJJ just gives you too much of a head start. Plus it makes my Aikido better.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:40 PM   #30
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido vs....

Jean, in this respect I have to agree with Fooks.

I've done BJJ for a while and done Daito/Aikido with some Kito Ryu mixed in. The concepts are teh same since both are based on basic jujitsu - armbars always look the same but how you get there is a completely diffrent story. Movement is a pain in the butt until you get used to it. In theory you are right, but once you try it you gain an entirely new respect for ground-fighting.

Not to say that most of your techniques cannot be done on the ground. Kito is a style of groundfighting that was a sister-art of Daito, which aikido is based on. It is kinda like aiki-bjj, same principles, same hand motions, same type techniques, and most of the time you have your opponent neutralized in less that 30 sec.

Honestly I'll never go back to BJJ, it simply doesn't meet my criteria for what I am looking for. Great sport, better than no training at all, and you will get some legitimate skills there, but just not what I am looking for.
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Old 08-02-2005, 03:45 AM   #31
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

sorry to drift off topic for a bit, but Ben if you're still reading this thread PM me and let me know how your shoulder is.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-02-2005, 11:31 AM   #32
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs....

Hell of a post. I can't respond to all today. I'd rather take one topic (or a couple quick ones) at a time, complete it and then move on. Does that work?

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
The problem is no one can. Because it takes alot of experience to understand the energy flow in that context - it's quite different to standing. *maybe* after years of trying two pure Aikidoka may come up with similar techniques - but again, why take years for something someone can show you in a class
I'm not saying that you are...but I get the impression that you're changing subjects--slightly. The question, I think, is can you...not how long.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Ok this is sounding interesting. Can you give an example. The book should tell you what the BJJ term is for the position they are in, if you could explain what you think your solution to that position is, it might help us understand what you mean.
It's not in front of me now, but the first recollection of the top of my head is...

Black is in guard (on his back with his legs around White). White is pressing both hands on lapelle. It's the first move of the book. It's a demo of how to go from gaurd to being on top.

In the postion of Black, the first thing I think is that it calls for a shoulder-grasp, first-control. Black strikes White's face. Striking hand grips the same (R-R, L-L). Opposing hand comes under to break arm's position (and also further breaking uke's balance with was resting on those arms) with the first. The heel on the same side of the first-controlled (?) acts as the base from which to send uke over.

By the look of it, sh'te could maybe hook uke's leg and get some momentum to bring himself up to as uke goes over.
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Old 08-02-2005, 11:50 AM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido vs....

If black is on his back, he has white in his guard (could be open or closed, I'd prefer closed).

From having someone in my guard, if I can hit them in the face, then they can hit me...I'd prefer to extend my hips and push them away so that I don't get pounded by having them in range. Conversely, I might pull them in tight and work for an arm bar or something...it just depends.

This last post illustrates very clearly why the MMA/BJJ crowd are VERY good at what they do...there is an entire language, methodology, positional framework, etc. that they train repeatedly to accomplish their goals. If you are outside of that...it gets difficult enough to discuss, let alone defend. If you haven't spent time with someone in your guard, you may not realize just how much damage can happen and how quickly if you don't push them away with your hips, and how weak your own strikes will be from that position.

Best,
Ron (and I don't even really do this stuff...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-02-2005, 12:45 PM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

I have been out of town for past couple of days. Just perused throught this thread.

Here is a thought. You really have to think hard about the dynamics/situation of the fight you are developing.

I cover this alot with my guys in Army Combatives, which is predominately BJJ right now for us.

If I approach the situation from an a civilian aiki standpoint, I don't want to engage uke. I will use footwork and distance/timing to keep him/them away and get to the door and escape. I try not to grapple at all and avoid the fight all together. It forces the fighter to close distance and hopefully go off balance. I will use tables/chairs, door ways, other people to avoid the situation.

If I am setting up a scenario where I am suprised, tackled, or overwhelmed...and cannot control things, or if I am approaching uke to apprehend and he is fighting..well that presents a totally different dynamic. I will always try and keep distance, irimi/tenkan...my preference is for back control as in irimi nage...not go to the ground. However, if I go to the ground/clinch...then things are back to BJJ again.

I like having both skill sets.

As far as combining techniques and pictures in books and stuff...I can see parallells in both BJJ and Aikido...I see no difference principal wise. Where things differ is in philsophy and strategy in most cases.

Sure I can find the aiki technique in every BJJ technique and how you can counter it..what is your point Jean?

It is not aikido vs.... to me..but aikid is the same as.
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Old 08-02-2005, 02:52 PM   #35
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Hell of a post. I can't respond to all today. I'd rather take one topic (or a couple quick ones) at a time, complete it and then move on. Does that work?
Seems sensible
Quote:

I'm not saying that you are...but I get the impression that you're changing subjects--slightly. The question, I think, is can you...not how long.
Well it comes back to my point of theoretically possible but practicly so unlikely as to perhaps never happen, amounting to the same thing.
I mean if the time it takes is 120 yearrs does that affect the question of whether you can.
Let me clarify what I said. I don't mean that after years of trainng Aikido maybe someone will come up with something that looks like BJJ. I'm saying take two experienced aikidoka, and have them spend years in isolation just fighting on the ground (not doing standard aikido) and maybe, maybe they'll arrive at some similar stuff. I mean it must be posssible because someone else came up with it in the first place. But it would take such a long time, and still be so low percentage as to make the exercise ridiculous when, as I say, someone down the road could cover off with you what you "invent" in those years in a day and do it better.


Quote:
It's not in front of me now, but the first recollection of the top of my head is...

Black is in guard (on his back with his legs around White). White is pressing both hands on lapelle. It's the first move of the book. It's a demo of how to go from gaurd to being on top.

In the postion of Black, the first thing I think is that it calls for a shoulder-grasp, first-control. Black strikes White's face. Striking hand grips the same (R-R, L-L). Opposing hand comes under to break arm's position (and also further breaking uke's balance with was resting on those arms) with the first. The heel on the same side of the first-controlled (?) acts as the base from which to send uke over.

By the look of it, sh'te could maybe hook uke's leg and get some momentum to bring himself up to as uke goes over.
Well first of all Ron's right, trading blows with someone in your guard is a bad idea. Secondly they'll either have their head in your chest were you can't deliver any power, or they'll be postured up. If postured up they'll have one hand on your chest and the other on your hips. Your chest is pinned so you can't sit up (say for a choke), your hips so you can't swivel (for armbars). There are of course ways aroun this (winning the grips war) but atemi isn't one of them.
But it's clear to me that this track is going to be of limited use. It's nigh on impossible to have these types of discussion online, you really need to be on the mat with each other, so my bad. Let's call this one a dead end, at least until you actually get to play with some BJJers and pick up some of the other points.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-02-2005, 03:03 PM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido vs....

Hi Michael, perhaps you could talk about sweeps/open guard a little bit...maybe that is what Jean is envisioning.

Just a note: there is an excellent summary of some basic chokes from BJJ in this month's JAMA. Also, it really doesn't take much to start to get familiar with the terms, positions, sequenses etc....not the same as training on the mat...but I've found a certain amount of familiararity to be helpfull.

Best,
Ron (again, forgive me if I've got my terms wrong...)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-02-2005 at 03:07 PM.

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Old 08-02-2005, 03:13 PM   #37
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

Well the reason I thought this wasn't a fruitful path was because I'm not quite sure what Jean is envisioning, maybe some sort of ikkyo? The lack of clarity is not his fault, it's just hard to do this stuff online.
From a BJJ point of view sure you want to disrupt balance and sweep, or uncross your ankles and play open guard. In both of these instances what is crucial is the use of the feet and the "hooks" (the part of your leg where it curves into your foot). You raise a good point, what Jean's post does contain is alot of arm movements and nothing about the hips and feet, which is what you need to be using to really be effective on the ground. I suspect that while he was doing whatever with his hands he'd end up uncrossing his legs but not doing anything with them and get passed immediately. Just a hunch, like I say you really need to be on the mat to have this conversation properly.

Last edited by Aristeia : 08-02-2005 at 03:18 PM.

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Old 08-02-2005, 05:59 PM   #38
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs....

Michael Fooks wrote,

"you really need to be on the mat to have this conversation properly."

Good point! BJJ training is so different from Aikido training. Aikido is a MA that really almost anybody can do, and do well. On the other hand, BJJ is really a high contact MA, so its not a MA everyone can do like Aikido, it's especially not a MA just anybody can be really good at either (in my humble opinion ) BJJ is something you have to "do" to understand, not just theories to understand.
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Old 08-03-2005, 09:33 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido vs....

Well, by going back in my mind to my wrestling days, and a very minimal amount of time on the mat with folks who know this stuff, its gotten me this far...

I think if you have any body to body conceptualization of what happens on the ground, you can really gain a lot just by paying attenttion. Sure, there's a vocabulary to learn, and no, you're not going to be a wiz on the ground, but just the basics gives you an advantage over a total newbie, as well as the ability to avoid the major pitfalls.

I guess the real case I'm trying to make is that you don't need to leave your aikido training for a year of solid bjj training...some basic seminar type instruction, getting familiar with the postures and language, and some idea of basic transitions / openings can go a long way to supplimenting your aikido for when you end up where you don't want to be...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-03-2005, 11:46 AM   #40
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
1)maybe some sort of ikkyo?

2)You raise a good point, what Jean's post does contain is alot of arm movements and nothing about the hips and feet,
Geeze, I just reread that description...and now I'm confused.

1)Yeah, something of an ikkyo. The bending uke's elbow would definitely be the objective. However, for the wrist portion, that seems optional...sankyo might be a better choice depending on how uke moves. But, in either case, you need to break the balance with the elbow.

2)It's in there...buried...but it's in there. I mention using the heel of the side opposite the direction uke should be heading.

From that perspective, the involvement of hips...and unification that I didn't realize existed...is cake.

For me, in this situation, the other leg would stay wrapped around uke...low...to prevent uke's leg from spreading out to improve his balance.


Give me a link to a picture of something, and we'll try it that way.


On the subject of uke striking and moving, etc. Agreed, but, isnt' that like walking into an Aikido class, seeing a technique and saying,"Yeah, but I'd never hit someone like that. It will not work."?

I'm offering an example within a very small frame. No doubt, if uke were different, my response would be

Further, on "if you can hit, you can be hit": No doubt. However, I think the significance of the strike isn't to do damage (of course, catching a choice point with even a light strike would be nice) but redirect attention momentarily. Further, by getting the hand in between there, seems like it would give you a shield against uke's left for a brief moment.


On another note...

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Aikido is a MA that really almost anybody can do, and do well.
Haaaahaaaaahaaaaahaaaaa. ROTFLMAO (I've never, ever used that, this is the first time it's fitting.).

Now I get it...You've never trained. You're a BJJer who's been hypnotized by the delusions of UFCs (No kidding...what's up with the BJJ books and the "greatest art ever?" How stupid is that?).

Here you go Roy...another tip: Read "Dynamic Aikido" by Kancho Shioda (thanks for the correction Boon). And, "Principals of Aikido" by the Second Doshu (Is that how it's said?).

Sure, anyone can "do it well." However, not in the same sense you're using "well" in comparison to BJJ. The person who does "well" (in the sense you're using it for BJJ) in Aikido will also do "well" in BJJ. In fact, the person who reaches high levels of "wellness" in Aikido will not only have the physical ability...but, most likely, be significantly more intelligent due to Aikido's cerebral demand...You know what I mean, right? It's not just memorizing techniques and muscling through them that teaches us...it's a little more complex than that.

Oh my, LOL, keep them coming troll.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 08-03-2005 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 08-03-2005, 02:29 PM   #41
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Further, on "if you can hit, you can be hit": No doubt. However, I think the significance of the strike isn't to do damage (of course, catching a choice point with even a light strike would be nice) but redirect attention momentarily. Further, by getting the hand in between there, seems like it would give you a shield against uke's left for a brief moment.
This is not necessarily true. If you control uke's hips and center you can hit him, but he will not be able to hit you effectively.
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Old 08-03-2005, 06:04 PM   #42
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Well, by going back in my mind to my wrestling days, and a very minimal amount of time on the mat with folks who know this stuff, its gotten me this far...
Hi Ron
I agree,as has been discussed on RMA a few times, it doesn't take much training to have some really good escapes on the ground against a doofus. Which is why I don't get why someone would want to spend years trying to get there by doing stand up aikido when they could get shown it in a day long seminar and save their aikido training for practicing vs the problems aikido was actually designed to solve. *shrug*

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Old 08-03-2005, 06:13 PM   #43
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Geeze, I just reread that description...and now I'm confused.
Yeah, like I say I think this is all but impossible to do over the net. On the one hand there's confusion as to what people describe, on the other there's the issue of "oh but you'd just" which can go on ad infinitum. Be sure and let us know how your BJJ trip goes though.
[quote]

Quote:

Haaaahaaaaahaaaaahaaaaa. ROTFLMAO (I've never, ever used that, this is the first time it's fitting.).
Well actually I think you're both being a little silly here. I don't think Aikido is any harder to acquire than BJJ or vice versa. For both all you need is a good sensei/coach, and the willingnes to practice. If I had a newbie come to me and say they wanted to start a martial art and which would be easier to do BJJ or Aikido I'd say give me another criteria to choose from because that's a wash.
Now BJJ will give you street ready Self Defence quicker but that's a different topic (and I actually think Aikido gives you very valuable skills much quicker than it's given credit for if you can convince people not to go technique hunting).
Aikido will give you other things.
But in terms of which one is more accessible to your average jo to start learning - six of one half a dozen of the other imo
Quote:
in Aikido will not only have the physical ability...but, most likely, be significantly more intelligent due to Aikido's cerebral demand...You know what I mean, right? It's not just memorizing techniques and muscling through them that teaches us...it's a little more complex than that.
.
Jean this is why you put people's backs up. You have never trained a day of BJJ in your life, but here you are claiming Aikidoka are more cerebral, that BJJ is all muscle and not complex. You couldn't be more wrong. If anyone came on and made those sort of assumptions about Aikido having only seen the clip of it on tv, you'd be rightfully p$@sssed at them.
I think you've got good intentions, but you really need to understand you don't have experience in a lot of the things you are making assumptions about. So better to listen to people that have that experience and maybe give them a modicum of respect.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-04-2005, 12:10 AM   #44
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido vs....

Here's a concept for ya'll....done it before in class as part of ground fighting cirruculum:

Ikkyo on the ground- nage flat on back, uke in full mount. Uke rears back for the punch, nage's hands are up around his chest area, nage's feet are flat on the floor with knees up. Uke delivers punch (energy going downward with likely more than a slight bit of offset from good posture) at nage's face, nage deflects/guides uke's hand away from face so that uke's arm crosses his body. In a continuation of the deflection across uke's centerline nage bridges in the same direction uke was deflected in with one leg (Uke's right hand would mean Nage deflects with right hand to right and bridges on left leg) and rolls across his other leg onto his stomach and brings the other hand up to cut at uke's elbow ikkyo style. Essentially nage uses uke's momentum from the downward stike to create the kuzushi then rolls in the direction uke was just predisposed to go. This roll will leave uke extended on his stomach at around a 40 degree angle of of nage's centerline with his arm extended in a full blown ikkyo. Nage will shrimp up using legs to bring uke's arm closer to his own center then apply a gooseneck/corkscrew (palm facing uke with the wrist twisted so that the elbow is exposed even further and the radius and ulna come into opposition against eachother) and apply a cut with his left hand while raising uke's corkscrewed arm slightly to provide a better angle for the cut.

If you can try it with a partner. I think that is about as descriptive as I can get with words. It should be one fluid motion that is initiated when uke pulls up for the punch. If uke throws two punches you can just deflect with the other hand across his center the other way and preform the technique (uke's arms will probably be overlapped if you didnt let go of the wrist from the first hand and he will be locked up). . If you want I can post the mechanics and reasoning I am assuming here, it aint exact but maybe it will help expand some horizons.

Last edited by DustinAcuff : 08-04-2005 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 08-04-2005, 05:20 AM   #45
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
, nage's hands are up around his chest .
if by his, you mean uke, nage is about to get armbarred.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-04-2005, 07:45 AM   #46
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido vs....

Quote:
and I actually think Aikido gives you very valuable skills much quicker than it's given credit for if you can convince people not to go technique hunting
I agree with this, but I'm curious what skills you feel they are. I would imagine you are talking about standing evasion (entering and turning) to get to superior position (and remain a more difficult target), practicing the choice to do less than maximum damage, learning to take a great deal of impact by getting smashed on the ground repeatedly, a healthy respect for how ridiculously ineffective surface level understanding of technique is, maintaining full body-resistivity especially in a situation where you have _almost_ lost your balance, etc. What are you thinking is valuable?

I think growing towards the intermediate stages of aikido and BJJ people (advanced beginners being sandan in aikido what in BJJ brown belt?!) the mind/body unification thing is probably similar enough. I always wonder if BJJ goes where aikido can eventually go in terms of much more sophisticated body skills.

I know there is a level of body movement sophistication in both arts up to a point - and up to that point I can see why people want to say they are so similar. I always wonder if given the degree of "checking to make sure it works" in BJJ, if those folks don't put a cap on their development of body movement sophistication - simply because it's good enough (a zillion times better than someone with a few years in BJJ and a bajillion times better than a total doofus) to remain effective, and easier to focus on learning more and more new patterns to stay ahead (or at least with) the other people in that system rather than giving up effectiveness for a while to develop sophistication further. I don't know. It might just be that the world will never know.

Rob
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Old 08-04-2005, 07:54 AM   #47
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido vs....

Hi Rob...apples and oranges I think. The major innovations in BJJ (my opinion only) are these (as opposed to traditional judo newaza):

The idea of positional dominance
The sophisticated use of transitions from one position to another and one submission to another
Non-jacketted as well as jacketted wrestling
some added sophistication in chokes

Its not about the type of body skill I believe you are refering to...kokyu and what not. I believe highly trained atheletes tap into parts of that sort of thing naturally...but its not the same kind of total approach someone like Mike S., for example, is talking about.

As to sophistication, BJJ seems very sophisticated to me. Its not all the bruiser, beat 'em up sport that it gets portrayed as. If it was, some of the Gracie standard bearers would be getting whooped, not whooping others.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-04-2005, 09:02 AM   #48
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido vs....

I didn't mean in any way to imply that BJJ wasn't sophisticated at all, or that it was limited in sophistication in _every_ area. I also see that there is an apples and oranges thing going on, in one particular area (the one that most people are looking at when they tell you BJJ is aikido on the ground) that I see a potential difference towards the intermediate/advanced levels. Maybe they could say we all agree that "BJJ is like aikido on the ground up to a point and then we may never know."

Rob
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Old 08-04-2005, 10:52 AM   #49
darin
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Re: Aikido vs....

Aikido is an effective martial art. So is karate, kung fu, bjj, wrestling etc... I think it really depends more on the person than the art.
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Old 08-04-2005, 11:57 AM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs....

Dustin wrote:

Quote:
Ikkyo on the ground- nage flat on back, uke in full mount. Uke rears back for the punch, nage's hands are up around his chest area, nage's feet are flat on the floor with knees up. Uke delivers punch (energy going downward with likely more than a slight bit of offset from good posture) at nage's face, nage deflects/guides uke's hand away from face so that uke's arm crosses his body. In a continuation of the deflection across uke's centerline nage bridges in the same direction uke was deflected in with one leg (Uke's right hand would mean Nage deflects with right hand to right and bridges on left leg) and rolls across his other leg onto his stomach and brings the other hand up to cut at uke's elbow ikkyo style. Essentially nage uses uke's momentum from the downward stike to create the kuzushi then rolls in the direction uke was just predisposed to go. This roll will leave uke extended on his stomach at around a 40 degree angle of of nage's centerline with his arm extended in a full blown ikkyo. Nage will shrimp up using legs to bring uke's arm closer to his own center then apply a gooseneck/corkscrew (palm facing uke with the wrist twisted so that the elbow is exposed even further and the radius and ulna come into opposition against eachother) and apply a cut with his left hand while raising uke's corkscrewed arm slightly to provide a better angle for the cut.
Situational. I suppose it could work. Maybe on an inexperienced guy. I am able many times when mounted to work sankyo on an inexperience guy and shrimp out. It only works a few times however and in NHB the risk of getting hit is too great to work it.

I'd say your scenario would work on a guy who punches off balance possible. An experience guy won't do this. I'd agree with Michael on the Arm Bar deal with your arms extended up.

Most guys will ride up into your arm pits prior to punching you...negating your ability to roll or do any technique at all. also, a experience guy will keep good posture and control when he punches so you aren't going to grab his center...he has yours!

About the only thing you can really do it start brigding. Maybe you can gain control of an arm...trap and roll him to the guard...that is usually what happens.

As far as ikkyo...one of the best examples in BJJ is the omaplata...(just finished doing three submissions about an hour ago!)

I was also working with a greco roman wrestler today. He showed me a russian...he said it is the basic starting point for all take downs in G-R. What is interesting about it...is that it is Ikkyo!
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