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Old 07-20-2005, 01:49 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Chris,

I don't really think the angles are the issue. They really are pretty much the same as shomen/yokomen,kote, do..they are just moving so damn fast!

Speed, hardness of the stick, and the extension of the stick is the real issue.

yea in theory, aikido footwork is wonderful and I find it very relevant. That said, the best thing to do is to either run (stay out of range)...or two, move into his center very rapidily to a clinch (irimi) and avoid the sticks. Don't be so concerned with the angles as to the range/distance of the fight.

If you have no sticks...get some, or get his, or run!
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:50 PM   #27
csinca
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Kevin,

It could be a style difference but the angles I'm refering to were the "backhand/backfist type and came off the parry. I was also surprised by the force generated by the simple rotation of the forearm which looked like simply flicking the stick but in reality was a bit more painful, taking us back to the velocity issue!

So the stick in the right hand is generally going to come in along a yoko or shomen path as long as you're starting out with the hand on the right side of your centerline. Once the right hand comes across the centerline you start getting into "backhand" type strikes, both high and low/upward.

Of course once the hand crosses the centerline you can check/trap it, but then you (okay I) catch the end of the 28-30 inch long stick coming down on the bride of my nose when the other guys rotates his "trapped" forearm.

The other thing I noticed was that the stick guys I've worked with are not coming in with a snigle committed strick but are more intent on working a series of a dozen or so strikes while they circle. This is a different attacking mindset than most aikido dojos I've ever been to work with.

When it's two sticks, that also changes the openings for entrance. Entering past one can put you right into that second one.

I'm definitely at the run way stage, that's why I cross train in "running" every Sunday! After you chase me four or five miles, my stick takeaways get much better!

Chris
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Old 07-21-2005, 09:16 AM   #28
Stanley Archacki
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I agree that you really have to know what you're doing when attempting to trap, control or disarm an escrima stick. If any of you have seen the Abaniko style of striking, you know what I mean. Say I come in with the but of the stick for a shomen uchi. If you block my arm and attempt to control it, which right away seems more like Karate than Aikido to me, I rotate my wrist only, while you have a reverse katate tori, no matter how tight, and can strike you hard on both sides of the head in less than a second. Similarly, if I have the stick in my right hand chambered at my left side like a sheathed sword, and you attempt to control the wrist, I could put my left hand on your hand and quickly rotate my right wrist, simultaneously striking you in the head with the tip of my stick (the most dangerous part), and pulling you into that strike. This doesn't even get into all of the locking that we train in Arnis from stick play. While we're infighting, we train as soon as nage touches uke's stick or arm to apply nikkyo, sankyo, yubi dori or countless other locks, not from traditional Aikido entries but from the stick play itself.

As I progress in Aikido, I will be looking for Aikido defenses to the sticks. I hope I don't come off like a prizefighter for the FMA. It's just where my experience lies. If I didn't think that Aikido offered very efficient and elegant defenses for all attacks from all styles, I wouldn't have started to study it. Still, the FMA's are a lot of fun. I encourage anyone who is interested to check it out. The group I train with is the International Modern Arnis Federation. They put on a ton of seminars and camps open to people with any or no experience and are a really friendly group. Professor Presas called Modern Arnis "The art within your art", and many have studied it to enhance their primary style, without taking anything away. The web site is www.modernarnis.net. I'm in Chicago and I'll be at the Orland Park Arnis Fest in October. If anyone here is interested, I'd be happy to meet you there.

Regards,
Stanley
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Old 07-21-2005, 10:23 AM   #29
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
In Aikido, we don't worry about the tip of the sword...or the jo...or the whatever .....
He wasn't asking about how weapons are used in Aikido, he was asking about Kali, specifically, what if a trained FMA person came at him with one or two sticks. The speed of the tip is important because at longer ranges, that is what (s)he will be hitting with, and Kali people put their whole bodies behind the move to get the most speed and power out of it. ("Kali," in fact, is a contraction of "Kamot Lihok," which means "hand (and body) movement.")

Of course, for training, you go slower, but predicate your techniques or drills on the assumption it's going much faster, just as with a boken you train as if it's a live sword which can cut you when, in fact, it's not (although it can bash your brains in). The system does eventually walk you up to going full speed, though for safety, the vast majority of people who do full contact stick fighting wear what can best be described as padded Kendo armor -- that's what it looks like, and the helmets have the exact same kind of grillwork as kendo helmets. (The Dog Brothers use considerably less padding but can safely be considered unique in that regard.)

And having said all that, the tip (punto) is not all you can use; close in you can hit with the but of the weapon (punyo), or just treat the stick as a roll of quarters and punch with your stick hand. And you still have your other hand and both feet to punch and kick with. As well as trapping, grappling, and generally fighting dirty.

So an aikido person facing a Kali person of comparable skill would probably have his (or her) work cut out for her/him. Would the Aikido person get his butt kicked? Or would the Kali person be pinned to the ground like a bug? I don't know. But our hypotheitcal Aikidoka would have a lot of variables to deal with, and I was just pointing that out, based on the 7+ years I've been training in LaCoste Inosanto Kali.
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Old 07-21-2005, 10:30 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Stanley I think you just provided a much better description of what I experienced!

When I first saw the striking coming off the wrist rotation I wasn't much impressed, then I got to feel a little taste and then I got to do it. It's a wicked and fast shot...

Chris
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:24 AM   #31
Stanley Archacki
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Yes, Chris, you're right about the wicked fast! Techniques like these lend easily to principles like flow and counter for counter. Little of our practice is attack > defend> finish. Rather, we play continuous counter for counter, stopping in training to point out where we can finish, but also where we are vulnerable to counter ourselves. A good FMA player will not overcommit, and does not rely on one strike, one kill. You have to TAKE their center; they will not give it to you.

Stanley
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:28 PM   #32
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Mike G...

Don't get caught up on the phrasing...it's the point that is relevant.


Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
1)I certainly understand what you are saying philsophically..but extensions of the ego, or not....you had better be focused on the "here and now" and protecting your own ego (body) if you have some skilled sticks flying at you.

2)Most aikidoka are not trained to catch sticks...as much as we'd like to think we are good enough to see those movement in a moment of mushin..I have yet to see this demonstrated very effectively with full force.

3)Maybe you could hook up with the Dog brothers and do a demo for us?

4)I hate to see aikidoka have their heads full of stuff that will get them killed or hurt.

5)I am as philosophical and elightment seeking as they come...so I hear ya!

6)Just like to try and balance it with a good realistic paradigm and comon sense though!
1)Yeah, I thought that the concrete interpretation that followed in the second paragraph of what you're referring to would clarify what I was saying...apparently, not. Reread my post...atleast respond to the point.

2)Aikidoka AREN'T!!! responding to sticks, fists, knifes, what have you. But, I'll drop this one. I hope your training develops to a point where you understand what I'm referring to.

3)Sure...but I think there's already a lot of demos that illustrate Aikido...Unfortunately, the nuances that you're missing will not be any clearer to you now or then...atleast not because of a demo.

4)Me to. I'd prefer they spend time in an Aikido dojo learning a meaningful MA rather than mess around with a MA of the week...or splitting their attention.

5)Yeah, reread the second paragraph of the post you're referring to...it's a more practical interpretation of the preceding of that post.

6)Not me. I want to see people get into Aikido dojo and learn uncommon sense...the kind you've got to work hard with on a single technique within a single art a lot of times to understand...
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Old 07-21-2005, 01:39 PM   #33
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

again, I said I agreed with you in Theory...correctly applied the principles of aikido will work the way you described. The issue comes from what happens when you make mistakes at full speed as 99% of us will do. In real life, you need to develop a game plan that allows you to compensate for those mistakes and adjust your fight plan to get things back on a level playing field and back to your advantage.

Just as in a knife fight...it is fine to practice slow, methodical technique with correct posture etc...but in a real situation, many times you don't have the luxury of seeing uke's subtle moves, so you must commit to a strategy to irimi or run, it may not be ideal the ideal side, but it is better than waiting for a fast knife to come at you. Once you are "in" or "out" you can adjust your game to get things where you want them.

I really don't care about the nuiances being clear to me in a real full speed attack, what I care about is surviving with minimal damage. I am very careful not to confuse my training (where I care about learning the nuiances) with reality/survival.

I think you are selling many people and their ability to study multiple things that are complimentary in nature short. I have found that it doesn't split my attention, but helps me "push" the envelope and develop my art. Maybe when I was new to the art of aikido it would have been confusing, and maybe I am not the best aikidoka in the world, and maybe I could be better at aikido if I spent more time on it...but that is not my entire goal in life right now, as is for many.

I have a responsibility to prepare myself and the people I train for combat, so when I look at topics such as "Kali versus Aikido" I tend to be pragmatic and look at "effective" and th 80% solution...not the theoretical appropriate response that is principally correct.

Meaningful means different things to different people. Your post seems to assume that other martial arts are not meaningful in someway. I find Aikido meaningful to me as a long term goal, not so meaningful when I need to defend myself against two by fours, sticks, knifes, and guys that want to kill me right now. There are better ways to develop strategies for this defense than aikido...so I do find other arts very relevant and meaningful!

I think we like to think that our martial art (aikido) is the ultimate end all and be all of martial arts..that it has the appropriate response for every situation...it simply does not.

You really set yourself up for failure when you try and look at a aiki response to kali, since there really is no pure aiki or non aiki response, only what works!
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:00 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Around here Filipinos have a reputation from being quite volatile and lethal. I know a few people who used to train with Angel who have told me stories about some of the Kali guys that were very...colorful. One that comes to mind was about a local master who doesn't take non-Filipino students who stabbed a guy he walked by on the street just out of the blue, and from what I understood it took the guy a few seconds to realize he had been stabbed and it was probably an aorta shot.
Stabbing out of the blue?...premeditated violence is rare with true martial artists. This event you are describing is probably gang related, as Stockton has a long history of Filipino settlers circa 1920s and these are deep rooted more than you think.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:53 PM   #35
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
...only what works!
When Aikido is trained in properly, it will always work.
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Old 07-21-2005, 07:33 PM   #36
Jay Mills
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

If Kali is trained properly it will always work too. I dont really think people understand how simple, fast, and effective the FMA really are compared with other systems. I have seen children in Manila that would make you rethink your styles effectiveness against the blade! These arts derived from centuries of tribal warfare, everything was trained to be 100% effective in real time, against someone that was fighting you back. It also doesnt take years to get good at and it compliments most other systems! As far as sticks being a real concern today, yes that is possible be it a club, or any stick like object, but i would say that most FMA practitioners, myself included, would be using a blade or multiple blades for practicality sake. You think a stick is tough to deal with, try a blade or multiple blades, they are so fast its unreal, and they dont miss! The FMA is weapons based but ultimately an empty handed system, we also use single stick, double stick, stick & dagger, double dagger, panatukan (Filipino boxing), Sikaran (Filipino kicking methods), Domoug (Filipino Wrestling, Kino Mutai (Biting & Eye gouging), and Kuntao & Silat techniques. Everyday objects, such as umbrellas, books, bandannas, etc., become effective means of self-defense. The FMA are for combat, they are NOT a budo or an esthetic practice, they were and are used to survive a violent encounter, period.

Yes its fun to debate these types of scenerios, but please believe me when i say, you do not want to come up against someone who really knows how to use blades, whatever your style is!

By the way, i have been seeing Magulang Na Guro Dan Inosantos name being brought up on these boards. Yes he trained and was greatly influenced by Grandmaster John La Coste, but his FMA are drawn from 26 primary influences. He will probly be looking heavily into Sayoc Kali these days, that and the iilustrisimo system are the best i have ever seen with a blade, and the whole combat mentality in general!
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Old 07-22-2005, 11:03 AM   #37
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Mike G...

Don't get caught up on the phrasing...it's the point that is relevant.
Great; now I don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 07-22-2005, 11:22 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Everyday objects, such as umbrellas, books, bandannas, etc., become effective means of self-defense.
Uh, yeah, but...can they defend against a banana?

RT (inquiring minds want to know...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-22-2005, 12:03 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Rod, I understand that the incident I mentioned is in the minority of people, however I have heard a number of stories from a friend who trians in FMAs as well as friends and faimly who work at the local hospital. I have also heard these same stories from medical people in Fresno.

I highly doubt that even 1 out of 50 people who train FMAs are like that, but from my perspective as someone who has spent time helping out in the ER and as EMS, I see the worst 1% of people as frequent flyers. I posted this thread out of curioscity. But you have to keep in mind, it is not uncommon for your local Ambulance crews to find themselves at the other end of a weapon, be it knife, gun, stick, baseball bat, dog, spouce or whatever. Does it happen most of the time? No. Will everyone get that freaky call on a Friday night to go to a bad part of town for unknown reasons? Yep.
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Old 07-22-2005, 02:33 PM   #40
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jay Mills wrote:
If Kali is trained properly it will always work too...
Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique.


Mike G.

You didn't get the point of the post you're referring to--the second paragraph of the post you were responding to gives the point of the post--the tip of sword and ego were/are just expressions of the point that followed.
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Old 07-22-2005, 03:00 PM   #41
Stanley Archacki
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique.
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/fighting.html


I have yet to see, and I never expect to see, an "unstoppable" fighting technique. These questions that come up about this art vs that art aren't yes/no questions about whether one trumps the other.

Rather, these questions are explorations about the possibilites that each art provides. I'm more concerned with the "how" than the "whether" in these hypothetical confrontations. Lets talk about specific techniques, stratagies and theories that the arts provide, not the supposed invincibility of a particular art.

Stanley
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Old 07-22-2005, 03:09 PM   #42
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Jean Wrote:

Quote:
Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique
Oh, Okay!

????? I am speechless! How do you address this?
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Old 07-22-2005, 03:10 PM   #43
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Stanley Archacki wrote:
1)I have yet to see, and I never expect to see, an "unstoppable" fighting technique. These questions that come up about this art vs that art aren't yes/no questions about whether one trumps the other.

Rather, these questions are explorations about the possibilites that each art provides. I'm more concerned with the "how" than the "whether" in these hypothetical confrontations. 2) Lets talk about specific techniques, stratagies and theories that the arts provide, not the supposed invincibility of a particular art.
1)Then you've never had anyone take your balance...Do you train in Aikido?

When Aikido techniques are performed correctly, Uke picks the technique, Sh'te just guides him/her through it...it's unstoppable because it's not confronting anything capable of stopping it.

2)That's what I'm saying...that's why I was trying to change the style of questioning to "pick a technique."
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:06 PM   #44
Stanley Archacki
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Any technique, from any art, will work, when it works. I cross train in tautolojitsu. An asset of my Arnis training has been ( I said an asset, not an advantage over Aikido) that I as "nage" regularly train with the assumption that my technique will not work. That it will get countered, be to slow, that I won't get a firm grip, etc. Not because that's how it's supposed to work, but because that's how it sometimes ends up. In Modern Arnis, specifically, we call this Tapi Tapi, or counter for counter. Many other FMA styles practice this way too, and call it something different.

I know Aikido has kaeshi waza. It's just that we start practicing in this counter for counter way from several months in. It helps in making a student see connections between techniques and situations. Within the first year, a student learns the Nikkyo lock for example, and then is challenged with finding appropriate places to apply it, even if they were never taught that specific application. Another art I have some small experience in, Small Cirlce Jujitsu, also stresses this ability to move to a different technique when the first one doesn't work as planned.


I have no "unstoppable" techniques in my Arnis arsenal; nor would the high ranking masters or even Professor Presas himself (when he was with us), in the way that you, RonJon, talk about them. I'm sure that ideally Aikido has a counter for anything I could throw at you. That's not the point of this thread.

As I see it, some of the strengths of the FMA's are:
1) "hedging one's bets" so to speak- Not relying on one strike and not giving away much balance when attacking

2) the ability to generate power quickly from many angles without much chambering or setup- This allows for a great deal of responsiveness.

3) the aforementioned ability to "flow", and really just deal with whatever happens

In my opinion one of the great strengths of Aikido is the ability to cut throught the "tenticles", the two arms and sometimes legs moving so fast they seem like eight, and go right for the CENTER of the beast. Aikido is particularly strong at this.

There has been some interesting, constructive discussion on this forum from people with experience in Aikido, Kali and both. Let's keep it up. We all love Aikido. That's why were here on AikiWeb. We don't need Aikido cheerleaders to keep up our Aikido morale. We would all hate for this forum to be to Aikido what Bullshido is to MMA and BJJ. If it's not AIKIDO, it's CRAP!
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:18 PM   #45
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Stanley Archacki wrote:
In my opinion one of the great strengths of Aikido is the ability to cut through the "tentacles", the two arms and sometimes legs moving so fast they seem like eight, and go right for the CENTER of the beast. Aikido is particularly strong at this.
Hello Stanley,

I agree with your points about going into the centre of the BEAST. Once my dojo had a student (dojo yaburi actually) came to my sensei and asked him how does aikido handle multiple jabs ala boxing. So sensei said, OK go ahead. So the dojo yaburi err.... I mean student went into a boxing guard stance and started the jabbing moves. Sensei was unperturbed and went right in, and control the student's neck, did a variation of iriminage, when they are on the floor, sensei continue with what I think was hadaka jime until the student tap out. BTW, the student was in his twenties and my sensei is in his sixties.

Stanley, sometimes, people on a different art are trained to move their hands very fast, making catching it impossible. I guess my response would be like the above, ignore the hands and cut right into the centre (eg the neck) where you can control the opponent. But that may just be me, whose only ever learned the jutsu type art.

But I caveat, if the opponent is carrying two live knifes and doing the move, I would run, or get a pole or projectile weapon.

On a lighter note, if I have a live blade (shinken) the opponent with knives can cut my arms while I would, again cut right through and slice the carotid artery, end of story. But then, this is not olden day Japan. I guess, a better choice would be to run and get help from the authority. Remembering the assailant body structure, face, any distinct facial feature and conveying these to the investigating officer is a better option.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:29 PM   #46
Jay Mills
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

"Not against Aikido. Pick a technique (Kali), any technique--give a detailed description of the move--I'll give you an Aikido technique that whoops your Kali technique."


Well anyone can give a detailed description of any martial art technique from any system then supply a theoretical step by step counter to it!
Im talking about what happens in combat, not 1, 2, 3 step moves practiced in a prearranged manner with little to no resistance!
If you truly believe that Aikido alone is the be all end all answer to a skilled knife fighter, or ANY encounter with a live blade for that matter, then you are living with some very dangerous misconceptions, and people can end up dead with that type of training mindset!
I have worked with several aikidoka, from several different styles, ranging from 1 - 20 years in experience, their understanding of surviving a real knife attack is non exsistent to minimal at most! My youngest student using a red magic marker made most of them look like they had been mauled by a bear! Maybe we should all plan to have a gathering of somekind, we could get everyone togather using chalked training blades or magic markers and just show how really difficult it is to defend against fullspeed non prearranged attacks using 1 and 2 blades! Im not going to argue or try to convince anyone of anything further but If anyone is interested in trying something like this, let me know, i can probly set something up within the next few months!
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Old 07-23-2005, 12:17 AM   #47
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Mike G.

You didn't get the point of the post you're referring to--the second paragraph of the post you were responding to gives the point of the post--the tip of sword and ego were/are just expressions of the point that followed.

Yeah, well, somebody missed something because my response was to describe the physical dynamics of stick technique and other issues an Aikido person facing that would have to worry about, and you seem to be saying, "Don't worry about that." Sorry. Don't go along with that.
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Old 07-23-2005, 12:51 AM   #48
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Stanley Archacki wrote:
..... We all love Aikido. That's why were here on AikiWeb. We don't need Aikido cheerleaders to keep up our Aikido morale ....
Well said. If you ask me, the Aikido-v.-kali my-art-can-beat-your-art part of this thread has got out of hand. Everyone should just take a deep breath and calm down.

At the end of the day, I came back to Aikido after a 16 year abscence because I love/am addicted to (pick one) Aikido; it got in my blood back in the '80s and that was it. I did so with my Kali instructor's blessing and encouragment (I was reluctant because I thought I would be exhausted at the end of the week, but he said "Go for it!"); in fact, he has told me he's happy that I'm doing everything I'm doing. I sometimes think I'm crazy, but OTOH, I'm not doing anything I want to drop.

There are plenty of things in Kali that Aikido people don't formally train against. Then again, there are areas where Kali and Aikido play with the same ideas. This is not a surprise; Kali is such a huge system that it has to look at things generally. That's the only way to describe it. Aikido, in contrast, is more specialized, but works what it does work on to death. And that's ok. Everything has something to offer; I approach Aikido with no expectations except to see where it leads me.

I love both arts and I like practicing both arts; I like and respect both my teachers. If someone asks me a question related to Kali, I'll answer it to the best of my ability, not because I think Kali is better, but because I know something about it (and at this point, know it a bit better than Aikido). I should after all this time. Yet I am content with Aikido as I find it. No, it doesn't look like the Aikido class covers kickboxing combinations or shoots. So what? As I said before, I'm not going to Aikdo for what the don't teach. Nor do I care if Aikido never "pops out" while sparring in Kali; there are any number of reasons why that wouldn't happen. Big deal. I'm working to compartmentalize the arts I'm doing anyway. I want to find out what Aikido does teach and see what I get out of it. The question of which one can beat the other never comes to mind.
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Old 07-23-2005, 03:53 AM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

last few post make some very reasonable, relevant, and good comments!

Agree with you Jay. Also, Mike good comments!
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:49 AM   #50
Charles Hill
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I read in Mark Wiley's book on the martial arts of the Philippines that the old masters were all extremely religious and believed that whatever God sent their way must have some positive reason, no matter how bad it looked. This provided them with a large amount of fearlessness. Sounded like O'Sensei to me. Maybe the two arts are similiar in the aspects that count.

Charles
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