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Old 05-13-2001, 07:48 PM   #26
tedehara
 
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Timing

Quote:
Originally posted by taro
...TED...thanks for the info. Wish there was a Ki Aikido club nearby so I could check it out. Would you happen to have any of these Ki exercises written down at a website so that I can learn and try them? Oh, and the sixth sense thing, yes, I was partly referring to the kind of "surprise attack" you mentioned, but also what Peter and Mark wrote about in their last posts....
Probably the best way to practice timing is have your uke attack you more than once, generally three times, then move and do the technique on the last attack. On the first two attacks just get a sense of their timing and intention. Correct timing is not moving before they do and not moving after they do, but move when they move. If you've seen video tapes of top Aikidoists, you'll see that they move when the uke does.

When you do this exercise, make sure that you or your uke don't get caught in a rythmn. Try to vary the timing of the attack.

Hope this helps and sorry for the delay in response.

Ted Ehara
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Old 05-14-2001, 12:08 AM   #27
Chocolateuke
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We are talking about Urshiro which is sixth sense.
in shizenkai we have a whole set of throws that are Urshiro waza which consist of the tori attacking behind the back. if you wanna learn a great recorse to chakras ( it may not be a jappaness expression) I strongly reccomend sacred science by Norman Paulson. you can order it at
http://www.solarlogosfoundation.org/ It really is a comprehensive book about the chakras and what they do. it also explaains a meditation tecqnige which is good to. well gotta hit the hay.

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 05-14-2001, 06:12 AM   #28
tedehara
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chocolateuke
We are talking about Urshiro which is sixth sense.
in shizenkai we have a whole set of throws that are Urshiro waza which consist of the tori attacking behind the back. ...
Techniques like ushiro tekubitori kotegashi and ushiro tekubitori ikkyo might be practiced with someone holding from behind. However when the uke attacks from motion, I've always practiced that the uke attacks from the front, grabs one hand then circles around the back to grab the other hand.

I've always been told never to give someone your back, in other words never allow a person to attack from the back. Even the urshiro techniques are only done to develop awareness behind you. You should not really let this attack from the back happen. This is especially emphasized during randori.

Maybe this is a difference in teaching style?

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Old 05-14-2001, 09:05 AM   #29
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Thanks Ted. No need for apologies, we all lead busy lives I'm sure. In fact, I should apologize to all of you in advance if I'm away and don't respond for some time. It's the nature of my job

Good advice on timing Ted. It helped me figure out (I think)what is meant by this, "If your opponent doesn't move, you don't move. If your opponent moves, you have already moved." So basically, your initial reaction to his/her movement doesn't commence until they have first moved. But once you begin your counter, you must move fast enough that you make physical contact before they do. In essence, you complete your initial movement before they do. Does this sound right to you?
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Old 05-14-2001, 02:03 PM   #30
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Timing

Quote:
Originally posted by taro
...In essence, you complete your initial movement before they do. Does this sound right to you?
OK--now here is where it gets weird.

You want to move when they move. Not before they do and not after. A spectator should look at the timing as if someone yelled "Go" and both attacker and defender moved at the same time.

How do you get this correct timing? From what I've been told it's emphathy. You should be able to feel when your attacker commits themselves to the attack. Just like a good ballroom dancer learns to move, you practice to learn this emphatic timing. The strange thing about this is it means you're judging the attacker's state-of-mind. You are not looking for physical clues that they're about to attack, you're looking for a change in their psychology. You don't want to react to their movement, but become part of it. Told you this was strange.

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Old 05-14-2001, 10:21 PM   #31
Chocolateuke
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tedehara your right but that is not what I am trying to say. what I was trying to say about Urshiro waza is that it develops your sixeth sense and by coordanation of body. it also develops that you dont move unless he does move stuff and also for you to be aware of your surroundings. Latly at my dojo we have been practacing motion form anywhere whethere you are ready for the attack or not. but All I was trying to say is Urshiro is just learning to be aware maybe I confused myselfe well cya

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 05-15-2001, 07:28 PM   #32
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Ted: Okay, so you're not "reacting" to your attackers movements, is this correct? I've gotten the impression that sometimes(if not always), an aikidoka will "lead" his/her attacker (in a martial situation) by bringing up their arms for the "check"(not sure of the proper terminology here), at just the right time. When the attacker has "boiled" to the point where they are about to attack. This way, the aikidoka influences, or somewhat controls the form of attack the attacker chooses. But this only works in certain circumstances. What I'm still unclear on is how the aikidoka can read the attacker's psychology. Without any "physical" cues(muscle twitch, facial expression, tensing up etc.), I can't see how anyone could "feel" or "read" or "empathize" with the attacker's intent.

Dallas: hey, just caught your 2 postings. Thanks for the input. A little ahead of my level, but I can see how Ushiro waza could help with 6th sense stuff. Thanks.
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Old 05-16-2001, 01:42 PM   #33
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Question Reactions

Quote:
Originally posted by taro
Ted: Okay, so you're not "reacting" to your attackers movements, is this correct? I've gotten the impression that sometimes(if not always), an aikidoka will "lead" his/her attacker (in a martial situation) by bringing up their arms for the "check"(not sure of the proper terminology here), at just the right time. When the attacker has "boiled" to the point where they are about to attack. This way, the aikidoka influences, or somewhat controls the form of attack the attacker chooses. But this only works in certain circumstances. What I'm still unclear on is how the aikidoka can read the attacker's psychology. Without any "physical" cues(muscle twitch, facial expression, tensing up etc.), I can't see how anyone could "feel" or "read" or "empathize" with the attacker's intent.

Dallas: hey, just caught your 2 postings. Thanks for the input. A little ahead of my level, but I can see how Ushiro waza could help with 6th sense stuff. Thanks.
taro: I see this thing as is transcendence. You're trying to transcend your own physical reactions and simply move when they do. The way you do this is by relaxing. By relaxing you'll be able to take in more subliminal physical clues and feel when the attacker commits to their attack. A more traditional view would say "Feel their ki and when they extend their ki, you move.". Told you this stuff was weird, but look at the films of O Sensei and see how he moves when being attacked. Does he react to the attacks or does it seems he's moving within his own time zone?

Dallas: Ushiro waza is good for development. I'm not sure it could be called a sixth sense or a subtle use of physical clues (see my reply to taro). Whatever it is, it does work and Ushiro is a good way to practice.


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Old 05-16-2001, 03:07 PM   #34
taro
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"subliminal" cues eh? Okay, so you are picking up some physical information. I'll work with "Feel their ki and when they extend their ki, you move". I'm just discovering this thing about extending ki. Not personally, mind you, just through reading etc. I expect it will be some time before I really "get" this stuff. I suspect it's something that I can only learn from experience. What I'd like to do at this stage in my training is to make my training efforts as efficient as possible. I believe you only get out what you put in. I can practice Ikkyo all day, but if my mind's not in the right place, I may as well be watching the grass grow, right? What I'm hoping to get here are some tips that will improve my training in this particular area of "sixth sense" type of stuff. I gather, from what you've told me Ted, that I should work on being relaxed during a confrontation and trying to "feel" or "sense" a potential attacker's intentions. Other than this, would you have any other suggestions for my goals here? By the way, just curious, are you an instructor?
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Old 05-17-2001, 06:02 AM   #35
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Lightbulb Relaxing

Quote:
Originally posted by taro
... I gather, from what you've told me Ted, that I should work on being relaxed during a confrontation and trying to "feel" or "sense" a potential attacker's intentions. Other than this, would you have any other suggestions for my goals here? By the way, just curious, are you an instructor?
There are some who believe that repetition of technique will give you what you need. I tend to agree with you, in that you need to use your mind as well as your body. I've always thought that most people have fairly good minds, so it's worth developing.

The practice of having your partner attack several times, just to get a sense of timing (the exercise I mentioned before) is a good way to learn. Observing yourself and others, live or on video tape is another way. But probably the most common way to learn how to relax is doing breathing exercises and meditation.

Sometimes I'll fill in as an instructor if there is no one else around. The dojo I go to is very small and the instructors are 6th and 5th dan, while I'm a lowly 1.5 dan. So I'm happy just to attend. However it looks like I might have to instruct more often, since I'm lazy and want to have a class closer to where I live.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 05-17-2001, 07:05 PM   #36
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Well, as far as repetition, I believe in mindful repetition if you're going to do that. No move will be exactly the same twice. Besides I'm a little afraid of reinforcing bad habits by repetition of techniques I know poorly.

As for relaxation, I've begun meditation practice as well as abdominal breathing(throughout the day), but I still wonder if I'll remain relaxed in a stressful situation. Not just a martial situation, but ANY kind of sudden stress. I guess the only way to test it is to subject myself to stressful situations...unless you have a better suggestion.

Lowly 1.5 Dan. I wouldn't say so. I live in a town where we're pretty lucky to even HAVE aikido. The only blackbelt is the master who is 6th dan. The two seniors who do much of the instructing in his absence(and they do a great job as far as I can tell), are both kyu rated. One is almost 1st dan. Just out of curiosity(and please don't feel you need to answer this question), how long have you been practicing aikido?
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Old 05-18-2001, 03:21 PM   #37
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Talking Mat Time

Quote:
Originally posted by taro
...As for relaxation, I've begun meditation practice as well as abdominal breathing(throughout the day), but I still wonder if I'll remain relaxed in a stressful situation. Not just a martial situation, but ANY kind of sudden stress. I guess the only way to test it is to subject myself to stressful situations...unless you have a better suggestion.

...Just out of curiosity(and please don't feel you need to answer this question), how long have you been practicing aikido?
Imagine the worst things happening to you. If you stand on a curb, imagine a car hitting you. If you standing in a garden, imagine a tree falling on you. Pretty soon, you'll be so jaded that if something actually happened, you'll be ready for it, since you've already imagined yourself dead or dying a thousand times. Read this from an essay by a samurai. Seems to work, or at least keeps you occupied and not bored with your life.

This year I'm have almost a dozen years experience. Too short a time!

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Old 05-21-2001, 10:17 AM   #38
taro
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You know it's funny. I do that on my own actually. Trying to think of the worst-case scenario for any given situation. The response I usually get from people is that I'm being too negative. I've never completely agreed with people, but it still made me re-evaluate my way of thinking. After all, I do not want to become a negative-thinker. But I have found that this approach seems to work best. If you've covered all the bases as far as what can go wrong and basically ran a simulation in your mind, then what I've found is that usually nothing bad happens. But if I don't think ahead, all hell breaks loose and I'm caught with my thumb up my ass(so to speak). Expect nothing. Be ready for anything. I've been saying this to myself since I read it somewhere not long ago. Well, now that I've gotten some validation for this kind of thinking, I'm definitely not going to worry about being too negative. Thanks again Ted.
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Old 05-21-2001, 06:15 PM   #39
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Wink

Quote:
Originally posted by taro
You know it's funny. I do that on my own actually. Trying to think of the worst-case scenario for any given situation. The response I usually get from people is that I'm being too negative. I've never completely agreed with people, but it still made me re-evaluate my way of thinking. After all, I do not want to become a negative-thinker. But I have found that this approach seems to work best.
Reminds me of a quote from a seminar I attended this weekend: "If you learn to enjoy pain as you enjoy pleasure, you will find that the world is a beautiful place."
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Old 05-22-2001, 11:44 AM   #40
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Wow. I can't say I completely understand that quote, but it reminds me of the movie Fightclub. Especially the part where Pitt's character forces Norton's character to feel his pain by pouring acid on the back of his hand. I've had this notion that if we don't experience pain in our lives mindfully and accept it, it will keep coming back until we do. What do you think?
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Old 05-22-2001, 12:48 PM   #41
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Smile

..this reminds me of the inscription Prof. Wally Jay wrote inside my "Small-Circle Jujitsu" book (by Wally Jay): "pain makes believers".

Michell Knight, P.A.-C
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Old 05-23-2001, 03:11 PM   #42
Anne
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Smile

-taro
I've been looking around for this article about the "second brain". There is no English version available so far. But I found some web pages about the two scientists that might be interesting:
for Emeran Mayer
his email adress emayer@ucla.edu
http://www.today.ucla.edu/html/010424mindBody.html
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/000403/gut.htm

for Michael Gershon
http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/gsa...culty/Gershon/
http://www.newiq.com/mentalnote/20010110.htm
http://www.neuroscience.com
http://www.thedailycamera.com/health.../a308761a.html
http://keithlynch.net/cryonet/56/61.html
http://www.physiciansguide.com/bkscimed.html
http://main.biol.vt.edu/Department/r.../gut_brain.pdf

Michael Gershon wrote a book on this topic which is available from amazon.com

I hope this is some help
yours
Anne

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Old 06-28-2001, 02:58 PM   #43
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Talking

Just another note on the belly brain/ "main" brain interaction.
Last november I passed my diploma examinations at the university. I had stuffed my "head brain" for months with knowledge but my gut was really, really nervous. I had just about three hours of shallow sleep before my first exam...
Last saturday I had my shodan test in aiki toho iai (Shoji Nishio Sensei's iaido). I wasn't nervous at all, just a little bit excited. I think my body / belly brain just knew for sure that I had trained mind AND body hard for this and that it couldn't go wrong... I found this quite interesting and assuring. I was even able to sleep for half an hour right before the test which is a really good sign in my case. And so everything went fine, I even enjoyed doing the test!

yours,
Anne

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Old 06-28-2001, 03:31 PM   #44
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Hello Anne, Thanks for the reply. Interesting story. Funny that I just got an email message about your post today. I was just thinking about this stuff again today. Coincidence? Hmmmm...
Anyway, I was thinking about how to be more centered in everything I do. I've been trying to follow a suggestion I read in one of my aikido books, about being aware of your center at all times. While I meditate, I try to focus on my center/hara/one-point, whatever it's called. Not an easy thing to do. I was just thinking about posting a question about this meditating on my center. I'm wondering if anyone else meditates this way and the results they've gotten. My goal when meditating is to strenghthen my mental focus, increase mental clarity and general awareness. What do you think?
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Old 06-28-2001, 03:57 PM   #45
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I thought the goal when meditating was nothing (once you've relaxed).

You know, not the thoughts, but the space between the thoughts.

Jim23

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Old 06-28-2001, 05:57 PM   #46
taro
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Well, I meant that these are the results I hope to achieve from meditation. They are the reasons why I meditate. Or have I been mislead about the purpose of meditation?
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Old 06-28-2001, 06:49 PM   #47
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There are different types of meditation that are intended to achieve very different results. You need to get the right tool for the job you want done.

Do your homework and learn about as many different types of meditative practices as you can.

The best way is to find a guide/teacher, etc. that your instincts tell you will help you get what you need.

Chuck Clark
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www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 06-29-2001, 08:17 AM   #48
Anne
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Do symbol

I don't meditate in a sort of Zen way very often. But I always try to keep in mind what my mom uses to say: "If you are within youself you can't be beside yourself with sth. (translation?! German version: " Wer in sich ist, kann nicht ausser sich sein.")" That helped me already in many stressful situations when I just stopped, thought about this sentence and went on more relaxed, centered and focused.

yours,
Anne

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