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Old 07-18-2005, 01:05 PM   #126
senshincenter
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
If the attack was moroteroi, I have to say that this is one of the hardest attacks that one can get out of. If your partner has a "vice grip of death" it is POSSIBLE to perform the technique, but you have to be very precise as to your angles as you enter. Yes, it's frustrating as heck to not to be able to perform the called for technique and it's even more frustrating when your partner doesn't seem to know the answer (or isn't willing to help you). There is a way "out", but it would be really hard to describe over the internet.

I've trained many a times with a "vice-grip-of-death" partner. 99.9% of the time their intentions are good and most of them know how you can get out. The key is to ask them "what do I need to do?" If they don't know, then ask your sensei what you need to do when they grab that strongly. If sensei is busy then ask them to ease up and let your practice a different aspect of the technique. If they don't, then bow out and find another group to train with.
As great a piece of advice as one is ever going to get.

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 07-18-2005, 07:59 PM   #127
wendyrowe
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Dear Paige,
I think that you and Wendy Rowe are dealing with the same sort of challenge. Perhaps you should pair up and try different tactics and come up with solutions, whatever they may be.
It would be a lot easier for Paige and I to work together if we weren't nearly 1000 miles apart!
Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Dear Wendy,
I have worked with smaller people, and at times I can be stubborn and not move. I usually do this because I feel that if I did, it would be a complete exaggeration. I especial don't give in when they try and use there strength. But one thing I always noticed is that once their unbendable arm is locked and/or connected to their navel for power, their effectiveness is greatly increased.
I'm still working on it; heck, I'm still working on everything. I haven't yet mastered my mind sufficiently to harmonize it best with my body, let alone my uke's. But that's OK, I've got a whole lifetime ahead of me to work on this stuff.

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
I've trained many a times with a "vice-grip-of-death" partner. 99.9% of the time their intentions are good and most of them know how you can get out. The key is to ask them "what do I need to do?" If they don't know, then ask your sensei what you need to do when they grab that strongly. If sensei is busy then ask them to ease up and let your practice a different aspect of the technique. If they don't, then bow out and find another group to train with.
I like working with a lot of resistance, once I've learned the basic moves of the technique (so like I've said, we increase resistance as we train). The one thing that I get completely stuck on is when we're starting from a static double wrist grab if my Uke is lots stronger than me and won't let up at all. If he's got me strongly enough, I am unable to turn or separate my arms or drop or succeed at anything I'm trying to take his balance. If he is willing to let up slightly I can practice things and get them to work, but there's a point where I just can't do it yet from a static start. I agree with Anne Marie that that's an excellent time to ask your partner or your Sensei what to do -- actually, the people who have done this to me have all been strong beginners so they don't have any advice for me. But I'm glad to see that Anne Marie also says that there's a time to bow out and find another partner.

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking this is more of a problem for women than for small men. The people I've had this problem with were all male, new to our school, strong, and large, and I believe they enjoyed the idea of being able to hold me helpless. When it got bad enough, I gave up on the technique we were supposed to be practicing and got out using other technique, and I avoided partnering with him. And like I said, none of the people who did that to me lasted at our school; so I'm pretty sure I have some evidence here at least that they were not good-spirited people who just wanted to help me train harder.

That's why although I agree with people giving Paige technique suggestions and telling her to ask for advice, I also think it is particularly important for a 15-year-old girl to talk to her Sensei about the issue to make sure the uke is observed by someone who can consider his intent and adjust him as needed.
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:36 PM   #128
Brett Charvat
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Wendy Rowe said: "...I also think it is particularly important for a 15-year-old girl to talk to her Sensei about the issue to make sure the uke is observed by someone who can consider his intent and adjust him as needed."

--I hope I'm not the only one who feels that Paige's uke doesn't need any adjusting whatsoever. He clamped down hard. Isn't that his job? I'm not sure where this idea about aikido being "cooperative" comes from. I've always been taught that uke's job is to attack in a prescribed manner, period. If Paige is unable to perform the specified technique, I would hardly lay the blame at her uke's feet. Struggling to perform a technique against a strong, large opponent is what studying aikido is all about, in my opinion. Aikido is not step aerobics. We're not trying to just mimic the movement that our sensei demonstrates over and over until it's time to stop. Studying aikido is about learning why a technique works or doesn't work, and most of the time this learning takes place while NOT doing a technique; while trying and failing to do one. For the past three years I've lived and studied aikido in Japan, and both of the dojo I train at are chock full of large, strong ukes who never give less than 100% of themselves in their attacks. Most of the time, I try and fail to do techniques against them, just like they often try and fail to do techniques against my attacks when I'm the uke. Are we therefore unable to learn? I certainly don't think so. Our high-level students and our instructors have very little trouble applying their techniques regardless of the size or strength of the uke, and I don't think they got to that level by training with cooperative ukes. I guess I'm confused why so many on this thread seem quick to want to adjust the uke because the tori (nage) was struggling and frustrated. Struggling and frustrated; isn't that what we all are while training?
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:54 PM   #129
wendyrowe
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
...I hope I'm not the only one who feels that Paige's uke doesn't need any adjusting whatsoever...Struggling and frustrated; isn't that what we all are while training?
I'd love to hear everyone here answer both of those questions.

"Struggling and frustrated" is not at all how I'd describe my feelings as I train, although I have been frustrated at times with my inability to pick up a technique as quickly as I think I should. And where I train, we're not over-cooperative -- we don't fall down because we think we should, we fall down when nage takes us down. But I don't believe someone can do a technique if when s/he first starts learning uke resists 100%. We train cooperatively and give increasingly more resistance as nage gets better at the technique.

Again, remember what we're talking about here is practice of a specific technique, from a static start it sounds like. That is already two strikes against nage (in terms of good Aikido rather than just good Aikido technique practice) -- if they were doing randori, nage wouldn't let uke reach a static position and certainly wouldn't keep trying just one technique that uke is expecting. Once you're in an unnatural situation set up to optimize technique practice, why wouldn't you adjust your resistance to match what nage needs to learn the technique properly?
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:12 PM   #130
maikerus
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
I like working with a lot of resistance, once I've learned the basic moves of the technique (so like I've said, we increase resistance as we train). The one thing that I get completely stuck on is when we're starting from a static double wrist grab if my Uke is lots stronger than me and won't let up at all. If he's got me strongly enough, I am unable to turn or separate my arms or drop or succeed at anything I'm trying to take his balance.
Here's a thought on a training method. Ask your uke to release your wrists and instead grab one finger or two fingers. Then try and do the technique...

The advantage of this is that it is really easy as shite to notice when you aren't going in the right directions because your fingers start to hurt. Unlike the wrists which don't bend so easily.

It's also good because uke can't grip quite as strong and also feels bad for almost breaking your fingers. This is assuming uke isn't being malicious in his/her intent.

Try it with other techniques as well...anything katate or ryote should be fine. Just a thought.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:23 PM   #131
maikerus
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
--I hope I'm not the only one who feels that Paige's uke doesn't need any adjusting whatsoever. He clamped down hard. Isn't that his job? I'm not sure where this idea about aikido being "cooperative" comes from. I've always been taught that uke's job is to attack in a prescribed manner, period. If Paige is unable to perform the specified technique, I would hardly lay the blame at her uke's feet. Struggling to perform a technique against a strong, large opponent is what studying aikido is all about, in my opinion.
Hi Brett...I think you have a good point. I don't think you can blame uke or adjust uke unless their intent is malicious. If they are just attacking the very best that they can and shite can't deal with it then shite needs to get better. I also believe that it always shite's responsibility to put uke where they want them...not uke to move themselves.

However, I do think that Paige (or anyone else in this situation) is within their rights to say something like "Okay. I can't do this with you being that strong. Can you perhaps hold me at 75% power or 50% while I try and do my best from that grip.

The idea in a dojo is to train and if someone holding as hard as they can intereferes with your training - because you can't move and don't know how to start - and with their own training - because they can't learn breakfalls or to learn what the movement should feel like. Interfering with training is bad.

There are definately times to train at full resistance. There are also times to train at no resistance. I prefer the 50 - 75% resistance or resisting to the point where you can feel the direction is right and then move before you actually get injured.

There are times for all kinds of resistance and speeds. If your instructor doesn't set the pace then you and your partner have to decide which kind of training you are going to do right then. It can't be one person wanting to resist strongly while shite wants to figure out where that circle is without any resistance.

Communication between partners is important and that failed in Paige's case. Most of the advice here is how to re-engage that communication.

FWIW...

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:40 PM   #132
Mike Sigman
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
--I hope I'm not the only one who feels that Paige's uke doesn't need any adjusting whatsoever. He clamped down hard. Isn't that his job? I'm not sure where this idea about aikido being "cooperative" comes from. I've always been taught that uke's job is to attack in a prescribed manner, period.
Well in that case, maybe her sensei should throw Paige as hard as he does his better students since it's up to her to figure out ukemi and that's what it's all about.

I don't see your logic, Brett. When someone is learning, it's probably best to go through a progression that represents where they are, at a given time... not give them the hardest thing possible and let them try to figure it out. They might wind up just as strong and muscular and techniquey as the really strong guys, but I'm not sure they'll wind up "relaxed". But that's just my opinion.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:24 PM   #133
Brett Charvat
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Mr. Sigman, I'm confused as to how you extrapolated an uke giving 100% to their attack into an instructor intentionally injuring their kohai. It didn't seem to me from Paige's original post that she was in immediate danger from her uke's strong attack; merely that she was unable to perform the technique. I certainly did not intend to imply that at our dojo we greet newcomers with a handshake that leads into a vicious ude gatame and if they don't know enough to tap then too bad for their elbow. I merely meant to convey that our ukes do not make a habit of cooperation with their nage/tori/shite. If a student is unable to perform the technique effectively four times, then they attempt it four times instead and the roles switch. Usually this only occurs a few times before either the instructor or a nearby senior student steps in and instructs through demonstration, and then it's back to struggling and frustration. I guess it just seems to me that either a person's technique works or it does not, and whether it does or not cannot be blamed on their uke. But of course I must include the caveat that this is merely my opinion, and Paige should do what she feels is best for herself.
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:49 PM   #134
Mike Sigman
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
Mr. Sigman, I'm confused as to how you extrapolated an uke giving 100% to their attack into an instructor intentionally injuring their kohai. It didn't seem to me from Paige's original post that she was in immediate danger from her uke's strong attack; merely that she was unable to perform the technique.
Hi Brett: We've all had jerks for uke's at one time or another. From the description she gave, I'm a little confused at how anyone would confuse the kid with a well-intentioned uke. The question from Paige seemed to be more "what do you do when you get a jerk for an uke" than anything else. If she had been wondering what to do when a powerful uke has her in morote-tori, I would probably have answered completely differently or not at all.
Quote:
I certainly did not intend to imply that at our dojo we greet newcomers with a handshake that leads into a vicious ude gatame and if they don't know enough to tap then too bad for their elbow. I merely meant to convey that our ukes do not make a habit of cooperation with their nage/tori/shite. If a student is unable to perform the technique effectively four times, then they attempt it four times instead and the roles switch. Usually this only occurs a few times before either the instructor or a nearby senior student steps in and instructs through demonstration, and then it's back to struggling and frustration.
That sounds pretty good. Maybe that's what Paige's sensei needs to do in a "jerk uke" situation (assuming the original description was accurate).
Quote:
I guess it just seems to me that either a person's technique works or it does not, and whether it does or not cannot be blamed on their uke. But of course I must include the caveat that this is merely my opinion, and Paige should do what she feels is best for herself.
I got out on the mat with an instructor, just playing around once, and the morote-tori grab was one of the things we tried. I'm fairly large at 225 and strong and fairly hard to move if I don't want to be moved. He tried to break my grip with turns of his forearms powered by his body, since he couldn't move me. Every time he committed in the direction to effect the grip-break I took him down. He never got the upper hand, so to speak. The problem was that he, like Paige, *offered* his two forearms to me in a static situation... I'd have never gotten his two wrists easily in a dynamic situation. It's easy to screw with someone if you know how and/or you're strong enough. I would have never played that sort of game in a classroom setting because it's needlessly embarrassing, just as Paige's scenario was.

Probably the most important thing nage is working on is angles and forces in morote-tori, but the static lock-em-down situation never seems to be all that productive for nage, IMO. I think a moderate grasp so she can explore a number of answers is the answer, rather than just one that maybe works sometimes, in addition to the needless humiliation. But that's just my opinion.


FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:41 PM   #135
Brett Charvat
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Mr. Sigman, you used the terms "needlessly embarrassing" and "needless humiliation" in your last post. Do people you train with feel embarrassed when they are not able to perform a technique? That seems to me to be a very strange attitude to have towards training. However, I sense this point may be hijacking the thread a bit, and I apologize. Back to the topic at hand regarding Paige's situation, I still contend that if the only thing "wrong" with her uke's behavior was that he applied his grasp too firmly, he was simply doing an excellent job of what he was asked to do. However, it is both understandable and natural that we should have different opinions as we come from different backgrounds. Despite our differences of opinion, I'm sure that Paige has gotten much sensible advice from the other posters on this thread and I hope this issue has been taken care of satisfactorily for her.
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:41 PM   #136
maikerus
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Probably the most important thing nage is working on is angles and forces in morote-tori, but the static lock-em-down situation never seems to be all that productive for nage, IMO.
Hmmm...I still think it has value because you get to find out if you've improved or not, for one. There should be feedback from uke to help you know this if you can't physically see the results.

And it has value for uke as well...especially when you do your best as uke to not let shite move...and they throw you two or three tatami. If nothing else, it does give hope for your technique one day

Which leads me back to my communication comment earlier

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:58 PM   #137
eyrie
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
When someone is learning, it's probably best to go through a progression that represents where they are, at a given time... not give them the hardest thing possible and let them try to figure it out.

Ignatius
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Old 07-19-2005, 06:57 AM   #138
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
--I hope I'm not the only one who feels that Paige's uke doesn't need any adjusting whatsoever. He clamped down hard. Isn't that his job?
It depends. In our dojo we learn the technique step-by-step under sensei's instruction, then are left to practice it amongst ourselves while sensei and the assistant instructor observe and help where needed. During this training (please emphasise the word TRAINING), if you can't start the move, you can't learn it, even in step-by-step mode. Uke's job here, is in fact NOT to clamp down so hard that she cannot perform the technique. Aggressive application of the technique comes later.

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
I'm not sure where this idea about aikido being "cooperative" comes from. I've always been taught that uke's job is to attack in a prescribed manner, period. If Paige is unable to perform the specified technique, I would hardly lay the blame at her uke's feet. Struggling to perform a technique against a strong, large opponent is what studying aikido is all about, in my opinion. Aikido is not step aerobics. We're not trying to just mimic the movement that our sensei demonstrates over and over until it's time to stop.
I do basically agree with this, but there has to be a ramp up from learning the move step by step, then flowingly at a slow pace, then quickly, and finally with full "combat intent". if Uke is uncooperative from the beginning, the practice cannot ramp up.

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
Studying aikido is about learning why a technique works or doesn't work, and most of the time this learning takes place while NOT doing a technique; while trying and failing to do one. For the past three years I've lived and studied aikido in Japan, and both of the dojo I train at are chock full of large, strong ukes who never give less than 100% of themselves in their attacks. Most of the time, I try and fail to do techniques against them, just like they often try and fail to do techniques against my attacks when I'm the uke. Are we therefore unable to learn? I certainly don't think so.
I don't think you're unable to learn, but I think starting a new technique slowly and ramping up to a level and speed that could be called realistic or "combat intent" is a more proper way to train. Once the move is understood, then it's time to have Uke resist the move, as a person on the street would try to resist. It's not a matter of "we are here to train!", it's a matter of the methods of the training. We're all here to train.

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
Our high-level students and our instructors have very little trouble applying their techniques regardless of the size or strength of the uke, and I don't think they got to that level by training with cooperative ukes. I guess I'm confused why so many on this thread seem quick to want to adjust the uke because the tori (nage) was struggling and frustrated.
I bet they started out with cooperative Uke's during the move. I've found it very beneficial to go slowly at first, and feel how the move is affecting the melee, both as Shite and Uke. Understanding the basics of the feel of the move will allow you to define what aspects of the move are causing the leverage, pressure, etc, so when practiced under duress, you'll know the technique thoroughly.

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
Struggling and frustrated; isn't that what we all are while training?
For me it's Attentive, Determined, and Inquisitive.


All this being said, and to relate it to the original poster, she was practicing a move with a Death Grip Uke. If he was doing this in the training stages of the move, he's wrong. We are there to TRAIN, and LEARN. He was not allowing her to learn the indicated move by applying too much force.

If it was later in the training of the move, and they were practicing a more combat application of the move rather thqan a step-by-step introduction of the move, then he's right to do it, because that's just more realistic.

I realize I have countered a lot of points here, but I do inherently agree with you, I just think there is an introductory, or step-by-step stage that should come before practicing the move in a full "combat" manner.

Thank you for your time,
D
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Old 07-19-2005, 07:38 AM   #139
Mike Sigman
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote:
Mr. Sigman, you used the terms "needlessly embarrassing" and "needless humiliation" in your last post. Do people you train with feel embarrassed when they are not able to perform a technique?
I dunno. There's a difference between feeling embarrassed and using the word as an adjective to describe a situation. My impression was that Paige was somewhat upset by the situation, along those lines, though.... you didn't get the same impression?
Quote:
That seems to me to be a very strange attitude to have towards training.
I'll pass on the strawman discussions.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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