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Old 07-15-2005, 11:44 AM   #101
aikigirl10
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Bryan -morotetori
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Old 07-15-2005, 12:22 PM   #102
wendyrowe
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Karen Wolek wrote:
.. At one point, I pretty much smashed into uke, since he wouldn't move...and I said, "It's like crashing into a freakin mountain!"
I spend a lot of time crashing in to freakin mountains, it's just something us small folks get used to. And I keep remembering that this is supposed to help improve my technique. Meanwhile, when I'm outside I practice my technique on real trees with about as much success.

The hardest part of Paige's situation is that when your uke's got your wrists in a death grip for a static start and you just can't move, you can't do the technique Sensei wants you to do. If you were "really" using your Aikido, you would never keep trying the same technique when it would clearly fail -- you'd switch to a second and maybe third, trying different things until one worked. But if the lesson plan is to use one particular technique, there has to be enough cooperation to make that possible -- and the Vice of Death clamped immovably onto your wrists is NOT cooperative.

Paige, I agree with everyone who says you need to talk to your Sensei. First, though, try to figure out what it is you're hoping he will do or tell you and plan what you're going to say with that in mind since what you say will surely affect what he tells you. Depending on what you say/ask, he might tell your uke to let up a bit, or might tell you move before he clamps on, or might give you some good advice on how to use atemi or better kuzushi, or might say something completely unexpected that will help.

I'm glad to say that although I've worked with people like that, none of them are in our dojo at the moment. There are few things worse than feeling powerless -- but feeling like you're powerless but shouldn't be and knowing your teacher's watching you is definitely worse! Talk to Sensei, take care of yourself, keep training, and you really will learn a lot from this. I hope it gets fun again soon.
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Old 07-15-2005, 12:42 PM   #103
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
Bryan -morotetori
Paige,

my mistake, but the principle is the same, your body needs to do the work and he's not holding that .

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 07-15-2005, 01:25 PM   #104
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
my mistake, but the principle is the same, your body needs to do the work and he's not holding that .
He's not holding the foot part of her body and she considered kicking him in the balls, which is pretty focused atemi and kuzushi all rolled into one, IMO. Maybe she had it right to start with.

Mike
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Old 07-15-2005, 01:48 PM   #105
Chris Li
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
But if the lesson plan is to use one particular technique, there has to be enough cooperation to make that possible -- and the Vice of Death clamped immovably onto your wrists is NOT cooperative.
So your're saying that it is impossible to execute one particular technique on a non-cooperative partner?

I think that it is certainly very difficult, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the solution is to give up on it and do something else in a training situation.

It's very difficult (for me) to speak French, so when speaking to a French person I might well try using English in order to communicate. But if I did that in a French class whenever I had trouble saying something then the point of taking the class would more or less vanish.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-15-2005, 05:20 PM   #106
wendyrowe
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
So your're saying that it is impossible to execute one particular technique on a non-cooperative partner?
Well, I can say it's impossible in certain situations for me, and apparently also for Paige -- so although it might not be true for everyone, it's definitely true in some cases.

Specifically, I'm saying that when you're at a particular level and your uke is sufficiently stronger than you are, yes at that moment it could be impossible to do that particular technique from that position on that person. You might be able to do it if you get advice that helps you improve your technique, and you might be able to do it if you start earlier or are able to position yourself differently; but yes I am saying that it can be impossible for a particular person with a particular amount of training to execute a particular technique on a particular uke who is using superior strength to keep nage from moving.

Notice I'm not saying no-one could do it. For instance, as my technique improves working cooperatively against more and more resistance, eventually I can execute techniques against stronger resistance than before I practiced. But unless you're REALLY good, you'd be naive to think there isn't SOMEONE out there who's so much stronger than you that he can prevent your success if you start from a prescribed static position and are told to apply a particular technique in a certain way.
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Old 07-15-2005, 05:32 PM   #107
Mike Sigman
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
Specifically, I'm saying that when you're at a particular level and your uke is sufficiently stronger than you are, yes at that moment it could be impossible to do that particular technique from that position on that person. You might be able to do it if you get advice that helps you improve your technique, and you might be able to do it if you start earlier or are able to position yourself differently; but yes I am saying that it can be impossible for a particular person with a particular amount of training to execute a particular technique on a particular uke who is using superior strength to keep nage from moving.

Notice I'm not saying no-one could do it. For instance, as my technique improves working cooperatively against more and more resistance, eventually I can execute techniques against stronger resistance than before I practiced. But unless you're REALLY good, you'd be naive to think there isn't SOMEONE out there who's so much stronger than you that he can prevent your success if you start from a prescribed static position and are told to apply a particular technique in a certain way.
I totally agree. It's very easy for larger people to counsel smaller people on how something is "possible", but until you've been that size you haven't paid your dues. I'm 225 pounds and I have to constantly remind myself that *always* as a part of anything I do, there is a contribution of my mass and strength, regardless of how skilled I may think I am.

Although a smaller person's "technique" is very important, until a smaller person's ki, kokyu, and ability to manipulate kokyu are good, they won't have enough of an edge to beat larger people consistently, IMO. I guess I could argue that those things are a necessary part of really "good technique".

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-15-2005, 05:55 PM   #108
Chris Li
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I totally agree. It's very easy for larger people to counsel smaller people on how something is "possible", but until you've been that size you haven't paid your dues. I'm 225 pounds and I have to constantly remind myself that *always* as a part of anything I do, there is a contribution of my mass and strength, regardless of how skilled I may think I am.
Well, I weigh in at around 125 pounds, so my dues are paid up . Anyway, my point was that if it's possible then you should be working towards it. That's why it's training.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-15-2005, 05:59 PM   #109
Zato Ichi
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
But unless you're REALLY good, you'd be naive to think there isn't SOMEONE out there who's so much stronger than you that he can prevent your success if you start from a prescribed static position and are told to apply a particular technique in a certain way.
Wendy, you've hit the nail on the head. Some techniques simply are not suitable to use on someone where there is a signifigant size/muscle difference.

For example, I am stronger and have a big mass advantage on others in my dojo... more on the gorilla side of things. If I wanted to shut down someone when we're practicing, in about 95% of the cases, it wouldn't be an issue - I could do as Paige's "uke" (and I use the term in his case in the loosest possible sense) and just become a rock - a 45kg gokyu vs a 115kg shodan is not a winning proposition for the former in this situation. Substitute a 45kg rokudan for the 45kg gokyu and the dynamic changes completely, but then there is a huge skill differential and a lifetime of little tricks which come into play.

The thing is, I honestly can't understand why someone would do this - it doesn't help anyone's training, tori's or uke's. It just seems like an excuse for the muscle man to be a jerk.

Side note: I still remember the first time the rokudan in question told me to grab his wrist with as much resistance as I could and he sent me flying... it was like something out of the movies. Little oriental man sends a much younger, bigger guy to the ground without seemingly trying too hard. Spectacular!

Last edited by Zato Ichi : 07-15-2005 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 07-15-2005, 06:06 PM   #110
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Well, I weigh in at around 125 pounds, so my dues are paid up . Anyway, my point was that if it's possible then you should be working towards it. That's why it's training.
I agree with you, Chris. What I would add to the equation is some skills with kokyu, kokyu manipulation, and the difficult-to-express relationship of "ki" training that O-Sensei and others used but kept close to their chests.

Mike
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Old 07-15-2005, 06:07 PM   #111
Chris Li
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
The thing is, I honestly can't understand why someone would do this - it doesn't help anyone's training, tori's or uke's. It just seems like an excuse for the muscle man to be a jerk.
Yukiyoshi Sagawa makes a pretty good case for this kind of thing in "Tomei na Chikara" - fun reading if you can read Japanese, and widely available in Japan.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-15-2005, 06:20 PM   #112
wendyrowe
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Although a smaller person's "technique" is very important, until a smaller person's ki, kokyu, and ability to manipulate kokyu are good, they won't have enough of an edge to beat larger people consistently, IMO. I guess I could argue that those things are a necessary part of really "good technique"
I was thinking about the "highest level aikido" thread as I was replying, unsurprisingly. And I was going to say that one of the things I do when I go from not being able to execute a technique to being able to do it is use kokyu -- but then I realized I couldn't explain it, so I left it out.
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Old 07-15-2005, 06:31 PM   #113
Mike Sigman
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
I was thinking about the "highest level aikido" thread as I was replying, unsurprisingly. And I was going to say that one of the things I do when I go from not being able to execute a technique to being able to do it is use kokyu -- but then I realized I couldn't explain it, so I left it out.
So give it a try. You can at least get your foot in the door. My experience is that by talking you have to think, as you think you begin to sort out the logic, as you sort out the logic you begin to see which way is the optimal approach to what you want to do.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-16-2005, 06:36 AM   #114
Kevin Masters
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

I don't know if anybody's already said this. Sorry if it's redundant.
Here goes.

My sensei teaches us that when your wrist is clamped down on your first instinct is to "look" at it or give it your attention. That's where uke has you focusing on your wrist instead of your center. You're captured. It's good training to force yourself to relax and just move yourself.

I'm sorry that it sounds like (and probably feels like) you're being bullied. I hope you continue with your training and get past this with a smile soon.

Smiling.

Kevin.
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Old 07-16-2005, 05:17 PM   #115
crbateman
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Paige,

Have you tried to do some other technique that IS effective, rather than forcing something you know won't work? Part of Aikido is adaptive, and to turn the tables on an overly enthusiastic uke is both physically and mentally unbalancing to him. Use his aggression to your advantage. Once he gets tired of ending up on his face, he'll get the message. Another thing is to meet the attack earlier, rather than just standing there and letting him get a grip. Some would say that insisting that uke lighten up is unrealistic, because that won't happen in the real world. This is very true, but the real world wouldn't give advance notice of the technique you're going to counter with, either. Uke should learn to expect the unexpected.
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Old 07-17-2005, 05:17 PM   #116
aikigirl10
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

All of you have ALOT of good points. I cant argue with any of you because all of you are right in some way. When i started this thread , it was right after practice and i was pretty upset. I've chilled out some since then.

I think i've come to a way to handle this situation thanks to most of your posts and advice. But i encourage that you keep posting if you want to because i'm still anxious to hear anymore that you guys can tell me. Thank you all!!!!


-paige
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Old 07-17-2005, 05:28 PM   #117
aikigirl10
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Jack Simpson wrote:
Paige,

If your dojo is the Aikido of Ashland I'm thinking of, I know your Sensei, and know him to be a very understanding individual and an outstanding aikidoka. Talk to him, about this problem or any other. That's what he's there for.

As far as the current dilemma, you could use this to work through, as others have stated, but I'm reminded of advice given to me by one of my seniors: "In aikido you can choose your partner". I'd simply choose not to train with this guy for awhile. I've done that many times. And some people have done that to me, and that was a real lesson. Life is too short to be miserable while pursuing your passion.

Cheers,
Jack

Jack, If you do know my sensei I would appreciate if you kept this thread confidential. I feel like i can confide in this website for advice on aikido situations from people i dont know. If people at my dojo find out i wont have that anymore.

If you want to know who my sensei is you can ask me in a private message and i will tell you if it is who you are thinking of.
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Old 07-17-2005, 08:07 PM   #118
Steven
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
Jack, If you do know my sensei I would appreciate if you kept this thread confidential. I feel like i can confide in this website for advice on aikido situations from people i dont know. If people at my dojo find out i wont have that anymore.

If you want to know who my sensei is you can ask me in a private message and i will tell you if it is who you are thinking of.
... are you 100% sure that your sensei and/or members of your dojo don't visit this website? I wonder how said training partner would feel knowing he's the center of a conversation on an open forum.
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Old 07-17-2005, 08:38 PM   #119
Mike Sigman
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote:
... are you 100% sure that your sensei and/or members of your dojo don't visit this website? I wonder how said training partner would feel knowing he's the center of a conversation on an open forum.
I can't resist saying that if Paige thinks no one in her dojo has already passed these conversations on to her sensei, she don't know jack......

Sorry. I'm addicted to wordplay.

Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 10:04 PM   #120
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Dear Paige,
I think that you and Wendy Rowe are dealing with the same sort of challenge. Perhaps you should pair up and try different tactics and come up with solutions, whatever they may be.

Dear Wendy,
I have worked with smaller people, and at times I can be stubborn and not move. I usually do this because I feel that if I did, it would be a complete exaggeration. I especial don't give in when they try and use there strength. But one thing I always noticed is that once their unbendable arm is locked and/or connected to their navel for power, their effectiveness is greatly increased.
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Old 07-17-2005, 10:06 PM   #121
maikerus
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote:
... are you 100% sure that your sensei and/or members of your dojo don't visit this website? I wonder how said training partner would feel knowing he's the center of a conversation on an open forum.
Maybe he does...and has already replied with what he *expected* her to do

Oh...the irony...

--Michael (sorry Paige...couldna resist )

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:16 PM   #122
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Thanks Roy,
I haven't heard a belly button called a navel in a long, long time. I got a good belly laugh!

Jason
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:24 AM   #123
Zato Ichi
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
Yukiyoshi Sagawa makes a pretty good case for this kind of thing in "Tomei na Chikara" - fun reading if you can read Japanese, and widely available in Japan.
I don't suppose there's an English translation? As bad as my spoken Japanese is, my reading skills are... uh... well I guess I'm functionally illiterate

Last edited by Zato Ichi : 07-18-2005 at 08:26 AM. Reason: The devil made me do it.
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:13 AM   #124
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
Bryan -morotetori
If the attack was moroteroi, I have to say that this is one of the hardest attacks that one can get out of. If your partner has a "vice grip of death" it is POSSIBLE to perform the technique, but you have to be very precise as to your angles as you enter. Yes, it's frustrating as heck to not to be able to perform the called for technique and it's even more frustrating when your partner doesn't seem to know the answer (or isn't willing to help you). There is a way "out", but it would be really hard to describe over the internet.

I've trained many a times with a "vice-grip-of-death" partner. 99.9% of the time their intentions are good and most of them know how you can get out. The key is to ask them "what do I need to do?" If they don't know, then ask your sensei what you need to do when they grab that strongly. If sensei is busy then ask them to ease up and let your practice a different aspect of the technique. If they don't, then bow out and find another group to train with.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 07-18-2005, 10:37 AM   #125
Chris Li
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
I don't suppose there's an English translation? As bad as my spoken Japanese is, my reading skills are... uh... well I guess I'm functionally illiterate
No such luck. The upside is that the Japanese is quite clear and straightforward (as opposed to something like "Take Musu Aiki").

Best,

Chris

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