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Old 07-12-2005, 11:53 AM   #51
Chris Li
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Mats Alritzson wrote:
Paige,

I think you should train with this guy until you lose your frustrations. When you train with an uncooperative uke he doesn't learn anything but you can learn a lot. You win, he lose.
I would say that you can learn quite a lot by being uncooperative as an uke.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-12-2005, 11:56 AM   #52
Janet Rosen
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
I would say that you can learn quite a lot by being uncooperative as an uke.
Chris, I'm so glad I wasn't drinking a mug o tea; it would have been a keyboard lost.....
thank you!

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-12-2005, 12:07 PM   #53
Qatana
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
So what are you saying Jo?
What are you asking, Charles?

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-12-2005, 12:22 PM   #54
BC
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

A few more options for you:

1. Start your technique BEFORE he gets a chance to really grab onto your wrist. This way you can practice being able to respond to an attack the moment you sense it.

2. If he is able to grab onto you, execute a different technique than the one he expects. Henka waza is an excellent practice.

3. Begin the technique with an atemi to break his balance and concentration.

Robert Cronin
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:02 PM   #55
Karen Wolek
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Paige,

All I can say is BTDT. I'm very small. As my 6 year old likes to say, "You're very small for a mom." So I'm smaller and/or weaker than everyone in the dojo. I have to deal with clampers and non-movers, too. Last night a really big guy (same rank as I am) decided to just stand there as I attempted the technique. Sensei was watching the whole exchange and trying to help me. At one point, I pretty much smashed into uke, since he wouldn't move...and I said, "It's like crashing into a freakin mountain!" I was frustrated and annoyed.

My sensei has told me that I need to hit these kinds of guys.....just once would probably do it, I'll bet, LOL. But I have trouble hitting people on purpose.

I think the frustration comes from the fact that I CAN'T do the same thing to them. Of course they can stop me...they are much bigger and much stronger and they know what's coming! They don't see that, though. The GOOD thing is....I've been told that I will learn much faster because I can't just push anyone over.

I'm a lot better with dealing with these kinds of situations than I have been in the past. Sometimes I just remind uke that our dojo motto is: Shut up and take ukemi. <grin>

Hang in there. You're getting a ton of good advice. Just relax and try not to try to move uke....just try to move yourself. That's what I've been working on.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:19 PM   #56
John Boswell
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

ATEMI!

Relax... Relax... Wait a minute... Relax...

Just as the uke's grip starts to let up... WHAM! Atemi and enter in on him.

He'll learn.

But don't lose your cool. And the hard he holds on, the longer you wait and relax...

Good luck!

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Old 07-12-2005, 02:22 PM   #57
Charlie
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
You outrank him and he is bigger and stronger. How well I know this. We have a fifth kyu who also grabbed way too hard. Now, I outrank him but he's been training longer than me so it was a very sticky situation, until sensei saw that Robin, a nidan, was having the same trouble with him that I and my kohai had, and told the guy to lighten up in general.
OTOH, my very best friend has been training for about a year, on & off, and she still truly believes that she is supposed to resist with all her might, has gotten injured because of this, and Still has the same belief.
And OTOOH, my sempai are now giving me much more resistance....because at nearly 3rd kyu I ought to be able to get underneath it at least half the time...

I, personally, could not follow what you where trying to say?

You've encountered a presumably similar scenario twice...Once by a stronger, lower ranked male and once by a best friend female. Additionally, it has become part of your current training due to your achieved ranking...

And in conclusion?

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

"Calmness is trust in action"
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Old 07-12-2005, 03:23 PM   #58
Qatana
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Is one not allowed to share similar experiences without having to draw a conclusion? I was merely telling Paige that she is not alone in this problem; and that different people have different interpretations of what ukemi is supposed to be.

Q
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www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-12-2005, 03:44 PM   #59
James Davis
 
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Talking Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Mats Alritzson wrote:
Everytime I can't do a technique on a resisting uke I call on the instructor and ask what *I'm* doing wrong. If I'm lucky he shows me a different variant or an applied form of the same technique
That's a good idea. Also, try "tenderizing" him with a completely different technique and finishing up with what your sensei asked you to do. It's easy for people to "block" technique when they know what's coming, but surprise is a valuable weapon.
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Old 07-12-2005, 04:11 PM   #60
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

As for "solutions" - I am not one for using atemi here to "fix" this. For me, that is on the same side of letting this person dominate the situation. It's not that I'm against atemi, it's that atemi as a solution here is all part of looking outwardly when it comes to interpreting this situation (i.e. the other guy is still messing me up). Ideally, one's instructor should simply tell uke to provide the right energy feed - end of story. Outside of that, if that can't happen where you train, let go of practicing the prescribed waza and go with finding another lesson to be learned (e.g. observing one's emotional content and/or reflecting upon one's deeper-seated habitual responses, etc.). Primacy though should be given to embodying the prescribed ideal - not with doing the throw. The closer you get to the ideal, the more skillful you become, the more in the future you will be able to find the technique even against mis-matched energy feeds.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 07-12-2005, 04:22 PM   #61
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Primacy though should be given to embodying the prescribed ideal - not with doing the throw. The closer you get to the ideal, the more skillful you become, the more in the future you will be able to find the technique even against mis-matched energy feeds.
You're absolutely right, but I thought having that potential you should go for 3rd Dan (at least) not for 3rd Kyu.

But Paige, David is right. That is what you should aim to. But please, you should not be frustrated if that does not work either at the moment.

Cheers Dirk
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Old 07-12-2005, 04:51 PM   #62
Charlie
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Is one not allowed to share similar experiences without having to draw a conclusion? I was merely telling Paige that she is not alone in this problem; and that different people have different interpretations of what ukemi is supposed to be.
One is allowed to do what ever they please within the parameters that are dictated, including to ask "what" when one doesn't understand.

Precisely because of the fact that you left your post open and ambiguous to the reader, I opted to ask "what" instead of responding to an incorrect assumption on my part.

Cheers,

Last edited by Charlie : 07-12-2005 at 04:55 PM.

Charles Burmeister
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"Calmness is trust in action"
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:06 PM   #63
RebeccaM
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

There's two things you can do if your uke decides to clamp and hold. One, you can try to figure out where he/she is pushing or pulling you and follow that. Once you get them moving, you can do the technique. Two, you can use atemi. Most people will move when there's a hand coming at their face, and once they're moving, you can throw them. And if he blocks you can do a technique off the block (we practicfe this quite a bit at my dojo). If he doesn't move or block, well, he deserved the blow. The last thing you ever want to do is turn it into a wrestling match.
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:08 PM   #64
cguzik
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Paige,

You didn't really say whether your instructor was expecting you to practice this from a "static" grab or not. If you have the leeway to start moving before he has completed the grab, as has been suggested above, that can be a good way to prevent him from getting a stranglehold on your wrist. Even if you are practicing from a "static" grab, though, there are things that you can do to change your partner's posture right at the moment of the grab... and it does not take a big dynamic movement to do it. Pay attention when you grab your seniors whether they make small adjustments just as you grab that cause you to change your posture. Play with dropping your center and your elbow just as your partner comes to grab, and see what affect this has on their posture and strength. Change the angle to better blend/lead just as the grab occurs. Don't let him grab you on his terms.

Chris
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:27 PM   #65
Tubig
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Paige, the beauty of aikido is we do techniques in turns. What one can do, may be done by the other. I am not saying it will be done, I am saying it may be done. In your case you had this guy giving you a hard time, you can do that as well. The question is... would you stoop the same level? There are a lot of ukes and toris that you will encounter in your aikido life that will frustrate and irritate you. The best thing is get used to them, identify them, asses them, analyse them, then do somthing about it. Do not succumb to their rules, that is what victims of bullies do. Remove yourself out of their rule, be equal, be strong and be assertive.

And if he still give you the S*#ts, youre a girl, you can get away with it, just kick that punk ass in the nuts, let's see if he really is stronger than you. hehehe!!!!


Last edited by Tubig : 07-12-2005 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:42 PM   #66
JAHsattva
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

i hope you find my post out of all this good advise!

"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you. " -Ueshiba Morehi-

the enemy will stew in his own juices if you let him.

is he wasting his time and energy on you? probably not.
so, what makes him so worthy of yours?

good luck and keep training!
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Old 07-12-2005, 09:33 PM   #67
maikerus
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
As for "solutions" - I am not one for using atemi here to "fix" this. For me, that is on the same side of letting this person dominate the situation. It's not that I'm against atemi, it's that atemi as a solution here is all part of looking outwardly when it comes to interpreting this situation (i.e. the other guy is still messing me up).
FWIW...I'm with David on this one. There are other ways to affect balance than atemi and we should practice those as well.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-13-2005, 01:48 AM   #68
Bronson
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

If he grabs on and has no directional energy or movement intent in his attack, then the grip alone was the attack. Escape from the grip, rinse, repeat and bow him in as nage. Alternately you could just stand there and smile at him. When he asks if you are going to do the technique tell him you will as soon as he gives the proper attack for what you're practicing.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:23 AM   #69
raul rodrigo
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

I'm with David and Peter; an atemi in this situation would be a cheap and not really beneficial fix. the technique is kokyu nage from a wrist grab, so nage should be able to blend and take uke's balance purely by one's own movement (taisabaki, kozushi, etc) acting on uke's grabbing hand. The grab is our friend. If you get fixated on the atemi, it makes your own aggression rule your mind. You have to do the movement and perfect the movement (tenkan or tentai), have faith in it. It will work if you really try to understand it.
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Old 07-13-2005, 02:24 AM   #70
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
FWIW...I'm with David on this one. There are other ways to affect balance than atemi and we should practice those as well.

--Michael
Me three.

kvaak
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:52 AM   #71
ruthmc
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

I forgot to add that a good way of dealing with a strong grip is to open your hand and extend through your fingers. This enables you to start to feel for other options. Allowing your hand to flop or trying to resist with strength will only make things worse.

I often used to practise just opening my hand when being gripped strongly until it became automatic - now my wrist can't be crushed becasue I don't allow it.

Ruth
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Old 07-13-2005, 06:46 AM   #72
Jorx
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Dear Paige. I had many similar experiences during the beginning period of my aikido career. And similar MENTAL experiences throughout the career.

However I've never seen anything like that happen in any friendly combat-SPORT enviroment. Sure, also in sport there are also ego-motivated-dumb*sses BUT somehow it seems to me that these are a rare species compared to their numbers in ANY traditional martial art (such as Aikido).

There seems to be something about the moment of competition that actually makes people humble not vice versa as claimed by very many non-sport-oriented martial artists.

"Everything I know about human morale and sense of duty, I owe to sports" (not-very-exact-quote of Albert Camus)

You seem young enough to try (combat) sports. I did and that's one of the best decisions in my life.
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Old 07-13-2005, 11:01 AM   #73
Janet Rosen
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
FWIW...I'm with David on this one.
I also feel that, in this specific situation, atemi is redefining the "problem" rather than accepting and dealing with it. It assumes "getting out of the grip" or "teaching him a lesson" is the issue at hand. I don't think it is.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-13-2005, 11:58 AM   #74
guest89893
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
There seems to be something about the moment of competition that actually makes people humble not vice versa as claimed by very many non-sport-oriented martial artists.
You played on different streets than I. Weather it was a sports oriented MA or other sports, I would say some people were as you described and others not so...

Quote:
"Everything I know about human morale and sense of duty, I owe to sports" (not-very-exact-quote of Albert Camus)
Everything meant everything both good and bad, don't you think.

Quote:
You seem young enough to try (combat) sports. I did and that's one of the best decisions in my life.
It is a path for some, she might like it. However, I wonder if this issue that Paige experienced may be more prejudicial than competitive? I am glad though Paige that your Sensei came and made suggestions to improve your technique as nage and not just admonish the UKE. It is better for you to improve the technique, and through that your AIKIDO. -fwiw-

Gene
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Old 07-13-2005, 12:45 PM   #75
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
I hated it when big guys (yes, it is almost always big guys who DO it, though of course the majority of big guys DON'T) clamp on hard to both wrists and stand there staring at me.
I was going to comment on this one...I wonder if it's true though that it's more often big guys who do this. IME which of course is just mine everybody does this, especially in the beginning, but it gets really noticeable if it's someone who is big enough and strong enough to stop me. The others just feel tense, lol. Maybe some big guys go on longer doing this because they can...

kvaak
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