Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-04-2005, 04:42 PM   #1
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Different aikido concepts

I basically just want to hear some of your views on this...

Recently in our dojo, we've been having another sensei come in every now and then for class. (I guess he just started working in the area or something) But anyway , one class our usual sensei was absent for family reasons, so 2 of the other shodans in the dojo and this other sensei decided to take turns teaching class. They each taught for about 30 minutes of the class.

Well , we had been focusing mainly on shihonage the whole class , and when the new sensei got his turn to teach , he introduced a concept that was new to me in aikido. First off , we started from katatetori grip (cross grip on the wrist) Then this sensei would take his hand (him being nage) and he would thrust it towards our eyes. He would then say " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" , and from there, he went on to do shihonage.

He later stated that this was a more effective method for aikido because it gave uke a motive for holding on to your wrist. He also explained that his former sensei used alot of methods like these because they were much more effective.

But then he explained that too much of this can cause u to be brutal and that was the reason he stopped going to that sensei was because , his sensei was too rough for the traditional style of aikido. ;

I actually like these methods better because they would be alot more effective in a real life situation.

I love the dojo I'm at and i would probably never switch but i do like these concepts quite a bit.

Anyway, im not exactly sure why im writing this. I would like to hear about your take on it , and similar experiences if u like.

-paige
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 05:19 PM   #2
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

If you take someone's eyes out you are going to jail, every time.

If you do shihonage you are most likely not going to jail, and as an added plus you haven't taken anyone's eyes out. My guess is that that sensei has never really taken anyone's eyes out and is just adding things to shiho.

And taking someone's eyes out isn't 'more effective'...it just means that the next guy will shoot you from behind or split you in two with an axe or some such. You'll always be known as the freak who took someone's eyes out, not a good chatup line I assure you.

Anyway, taking eyes out is a fine skill and you need a cow or sheep head to practice it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 05:28 PM   #3
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

I think u misunderstood me. It wasnt actually that he was going to take out nage's eyes , he just used that as a device to give them a motive for holding on to his wrist. He wasnt teaching us how to take out someones eyes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 05:59 PM   #4
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 210
South Korea
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

I think Mark was being a bit of a smart-alec.... The idea of making an offensive motion in order to cement one's connection with uke is not new or unique. Many Aikido styles/schools use it. Not sure what else I could tell you. You can explore your own options every time you connect with uke, look to see where they might be vulnerable to a strike, or eye-gouging.
And, you won't need to kill any innocent sheep...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 06:28 PM   #5
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

I am not sure I understand...he thrusts he fingers at your eyes and then *says* "don't let go or you lose your eyes"??

Isn't that a little late? Wouldn't you have already blocked or moved away and let go or something? I can't see just poking at your eyes making you want to hang on...although as Joseph said there are many ways of keeping your uke holding on or attached to you.

Can't visualize this very well...sorry. But the whole speaking thing (if that is the case) usually happens after the guy has been pinned. Something like..."roll over or I will dislocate your shoulder" or something like that.

cheers,

--Michael

-

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 07:16 PM   #6
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

No, it's what Joseph said. It's using your intent (and uke's ability to sense your intent) to effect the technique. Without the (martial) intent, shihonage (or whatever) simply becomes a waltz.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 07:20 PM   #7
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 789
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

That was the way I learned shiho-nage in Kyushindo. And, in disaster terms, shihonage is probably more violent than a poke in the eyes Anyway, it is a very good concept that can be applied in every technique. You don't have to go for the eyes, but you do have to extend towards uke a little to get the desired effect. I would listen to that guy and find out more of what he has because it could be good.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 07:42 PM   #8
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Am I just being dense here?

If someone starts to go towards my eyes and I have one hand free I am going to do my best to block that.

And although I might keep hanging on with my other hand because I am focussing on blocking, I still don't understand if the person actually says " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" or if that is a description of the discraction and there is no actual speech involved.

I also have no problem with the intent to affect the technique. When we do shihonage there is a movement of the grasped hand at the same time as a punch between the eyes in order to force a block. The block distracts from the fact that uke is holding on. The movement of the grasped hand is to affect ukes balance so that the next movement is easier and more controlled.

If the don't block then I'll hit them between the eyes and in the ensuing confusion as uke sees stars I will do shihonage.

I don't get this "motive for holding on to your wrist" ... key word here being *motive*. I've always understood the atemi to be a distraction or a place to take uke out if they don't block...not a motive.

This may be semantics...but it is confusing the Aiki out of me <wry grin>

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 07:54 PM   #9
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Hi Michael,

Sounds like you need less technique and more "feeling"
Without intent, there is no motive
No motive, no feeling (i.e. connection).
No feeling, no aiki.

Or at least how I was taught...

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 08:12 PM   #10
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

I'm still stuck at the "is this guy speaking" question.

I have no problem with intent and feeling within technique. The only speaking I expect is a good kiai from the gut.

Confusedly,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 08:23 PM   #11
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 210
South Korea
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Am I just being dense here?
If someone starts to go towards my eyes and I have one hand free I am going to do my best to block that....I also have no problem with the intent to affect the technique...If they don't block then I'll hit them between the eyes and in the ensuing confusion as uke sees stars I will do shihonage.I don't get this "motive for holding on to your wrist" ... key word here being *motive*. I've always understood the atemi to be a distraction or a place to take uke out if they don't block...not a motive. This may be semantics...but it is confusing the Aiki out of me <wry grin>
--Michael
Maybe not dense, but certainly wrapped up in the semantics of the initial poster. If you look at the highlighted portion of your quote, I think that you'll find yourself in agreement with the original poster's instructor. You are probably overreacting to the instructors embellishment about "poking eyes out". This is in fact quite hard to do. While the embellishment is a little over the top, it is the idea behind it, which you yourself have displayed, that is important. Don't get too wrapped up in trivialities (if that's actually a word?).
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 08:24 PM   #12
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Like I said, the motive for uke to hold on, is due to uke's ability to feel that if he were to let go, he'd get poked in the eyes. Just like an atemi gives uke the motive to respond. If uke not move, he get hit.

Maybe he was speaking thusly as a "wake up" call for uke...? I know I sometimes do that...

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 08:55 PM   #13
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

To be honest I'm tending to agree with Michael also. Maybe it's something in the way it's being explained. But this just makes no sense from a viewpoint of practicality, unless I am just misinterpreting the description.

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
First off , we started from katatetori grip (cross grip on the wrist) Then this sensei would take his hand (him being nage) and he would thrust it towards our eyes. He would then say " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" , and from there, he went on to do shihonage.

He later stated that this was a more effective method for aikido because it gave uke a motive for holding on to your wrist.
I don't get how telling me that "I will get my eye poked out if I don't hold onto the wrist" works, since if you thrust your fist at my face I'll initially block it and start positioning myself to resist and counter if you stand there talking to me without having taken my balance.

Unless I am missing something, in the midst of talking you'd be eating mat imho.

Though I can understand how the initial thrust can force Uke to hold onto the wrist for an instant due to physical and mental distraction, I don't see how giving him an "or else" proposition is going to entice him to continue holding on if it does not serve him, since he could just as easily poke out your eye with his other hand during this exchange unless he is made unable to do so by some other means.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 09:11 PM   #14
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

From where I'm sitting, it looks like a case of seeing the forest for the trees.

Sometimes it is necessary to say things like that from a teaching/demonstration point of view, because sometimes people just plain "don't see it", "don't know", "don't get it", "don't understand". i.e. it's a pedagogical tool.

Otherwise it would simply be unspoken communication between uke and this sensei only, and everyone else would be thinking (and seeing) something else.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 09:13 PM   #15
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 210
South Korea
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

If you're in an actual physical confrontation, telling your attacker, "if you don't hold on I'll poke your eyes out", won't actually work. However, in a class during the execution of a set of prearrange motions, explaining that uke would want to maintain that contact through his grip in order to avoid, however momentarily getting "poked in the eye", thereby giving nage an opportunity to exploit, is not outside the paradigm of Aikido. While you might disagree with the particular phrase, "poke your eyes out", the sentiment that it represents is valid.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 09:16 PM   #16
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

I think everyone is kinda missing the point. The sensei is nage. The person attacking has grabbed his wrist. This is when he goes for the eyes. And this is what keeps uke holding on , (keeping his hand away from their eyes) When he goes for their eyes it turns their arm over for shihonage.

The whole speaking thing ... he only said that when he was explaining it the first time , its not like he said it for every technique, he was just explaining it to us like im explaining it to u now

hope this makes it clearer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 09:20 PM   #17
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Makes perfect sense now.

Thanks Paige.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 09:34 PM   #18
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Japan
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Oh...he's going for the eyes with the hand being held. Perfect sense.

Thanks Paige.

--Michael...now much less confused....and glad I wasn't the only one.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 09:36 PM   #19
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

lol its ok michael , i didnt make it very clear
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 10:02 PM   #20
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
..... First off , we started from katatetori grip (cross grip on the wrist) Then this sensei would take his hand (him being nage) and he would thrust it towards our eyes. He would then say " Now, if u dont continue to hold on to my wrist, then i'm going to poke out your eyes w/my fingers" , and from there, he went on to do shihonage.
It sounds like a valid explanation for the wrist grab. I haven't come across that in the dojos I go to, but it is a variation on the theme of nage striking first, uke responding, and nage does the technique off that, although that comes in training. Pretty violent, though, so you want to think carefully about whether you want that tool in your tool box.

I wouldn't worry too much about the explanation for katate dori. EVERY self defense system in every culture has that, because it is a vlaid attack or part of an attack ie grab and strike. I also think it gives a relatively simple reference point for sutdying basic techniques even if it implies high level timing (pinning uke to the ground before he has a chance to fire the other hand -- not an easy thing to do). Don't sweat it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2005, 11:02 PM   #21
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

i was talking to michael stuempel
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2005, 04:49 AM   #22
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

I was with Michael for a while on it, until the explaination, makes more sense now. You can go for the eyes or for a head level atemi, I agree, without the intent of atemi, there is no motive for nage to "protect" himself, or no openning for uke to continue the technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2005, 09:58 AM   #23
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
i was talking to michael stuempel
I was answering your original post, not the one addressed to Mr. Stuempel; I know you weren't talking to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2005, 10:03 AM   #24
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
.... without the intent of atemi, there is no motive for nage to "protect" himself, or no openning for uke to continue the technique.
Maybe. Maybe uke just wants to restrain one arm and hit you with the other arm, so they're not grabbing to protect themselves and threaten you. That makes more sense to me; the explanation that they're stopping your strike, well, it's kinda valid, but there are better defenses against strikes out there. But l like I said, don't sweat it.

Mike "I know you are talking to Michael Stuempel" Gallagher.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2005, 10:59 AM   #25
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Different aikido concepts

good points Mike (not Michael Stuempel )
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Philippine ranking and other stories aries admin General 27 06-27-2006 04:27 AM
Propostarganização do Aikido em Portugal kimusubi0 French 0 05-01-2004 02:30 AM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:13 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate