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Old 07-04-2005, 12:08 AM   #1
Tubig
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Aikido versus Knees and elbows

We have a classic begginer at the dojo.

19 years old, full of energy, keen, wants to know how handle kicks, knees, and elbow shots.

I showed him some techniques with front, side, round house, stomp, and hook kicks. I adviced him that any kick higher than the hip; avoid or enter then irimi or kokyu nage.

However I had a blank because ikyo is my only efficient technique for uppercut elbow, side elbow and yokomen elbow shots. I even hit an even more blank about knee (muay thai) types, where one's head is locked by the opponents arms whilst the knees start stabbing up the abdomen. My best adviced him was never let this happen to him.

My fellow aikidokas we might need some efficient advice on this one. How does one awase or blend with such attacks?
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Old 07-04-2005, 02:42 AM   #2
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
knee (muay thai) types, where one's head is locked by the opponents arms whilst the knees start stabbing up the abdomen.
I would say the latest possible timing one can recommend is before the head is locked, as the attacker is pulling you through your head, neck & shoulders towards him (in fact, he is both pulling you and coming towards you). Instead of trying to resist the pull, you can enter and perform a technique (outwards Irimi Nage or sore-age seem like options for me).
From my ow experience, when I practiced the knee techniques during a TKD lessons, one could often block the knees using his hands and then try to find an opening in the clinch and perform a counter technique. However, this latter exercise is not suited for beginners.

As for the elbow attacks, I would think the real problem is evading in time, once you are outside the line of attack, there numerous possibilities. For example, for an uppercut elbow, you can evade from either direction and preform sore-age, or you could evade from the outside and perform a strangulation technique or some other headlock.

Similar concepts apply for the other elbow techniques: blend and evade and enter to perform a technique on his head/body. Note that these attacks are performed at very short distances, and the main difficulty is not to perform a technique but just to identify the attack on time and evade it.

In any case, I would not consider any of these situations as situations a beginner should start his learning with, I would only start teaching them to good students with 2-3 years experience and would adjust my expectations.

Amir
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Old 07-04-2005, 02:53 AM   #3
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Let me try:

For uppercut elbow: How about ushiro ate (ushiro nage). You avoid the uppercut by going to the rear side and the give him a rear throw... for those with sadistic streak throw in a hadaka jime or okuri eri jime just for fun.

If you are locked in a head lock ala Muay Thai style... I guess sutemi type of throw (uki waza or uki otoshi) will do... if opportunity present itself... maybe a minor reaping tech (e.g. kosoto gari)? OK OK, for a more aikido response... how about shomen ate (irimi zuki)... ?

I am sure there are more responses... but these are stuff that come to my mind at the first instance.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-04-2005, 11:35 AM   #4
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Have fun exploring the options! I love it when I get to meet a newcomer who is exploring the paradigms of aikido.

While the solutions (principles) are all in aikido, the hard part is getting the new student to look past all the techniques and learn the principles that aikido has to offer.

I personally find that once you enter to the position of the clinch or your head is being held down and knees are flying up, that there are things that are typically not within the repetoire of traditional aikido technique that work much better. That said the principles are there! Have fun exploring!
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Old 07-04-2005, 11:53 AM   #5
aikigirl10
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Im definitely going to bring this up at my dojo b/c we never really practice against kicks
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Old 07-04-2005, 12:12 PM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

from "normal aikido" range, a kick is really nothing more than a shomenuchi or yokomenuchi. You would enter just the same, using irmi and tenkan.

However, once you move into "grappling" range, and you are doing knees and elbows, it gets difficult to move using irmi and tenkan. Usually you start worrying about keeping your posture and you start trying to control the center of the person you are clinching with. Try to prevent it being a fight. Aikido hip throws (koshi) can work well. If you bent over at the waist and he has grabbed your head your gonna have to lower your hips and try and bring your center back under yourself again and get into a clinch again, while protecting yourself against knees and uppercuts. Irimi and tenkan are actually still there however!
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Old 07-04-2005, 04:42 PM   #7
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

I went to training last night as one does, and I asked one of my sempais who is san dan. He actually disappointed me with his response. He said that that is one of the weaknesses in aikido. In fact he said that he would not use aikido in this case. I could not believe it, in fact I refuse to believe it. There must be a way to counter that Muay thai headlock attack with knees and elbows using aikido. I can imagine Osensei would take out his wooden spoon and spank him on the forehead for such blasphemy.
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Old 07-04-2005, 05:25 PM   #8
mj
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

I'm not sure it is always wise to try to blend with the strongest part of the attack.

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Old 07-04-2005, 05:52 PM   #9
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

I agree with you there MJ. One can not really blend with this Muay thai lock. So how do we defend against it using aiki?
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Old 07-04-2005, 07:33 PM   #10
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
Cromwell Salvatera wrote:
I went to training last night as one does, and I asked one of my sempai who is sandan. He actually disappointed me with his response. He said that that is one of the weaknesses in aikido. In fact he said that he would not use aikido in this case. I could not believe it; in fact I refuse to believe it. There must be a way to counter that Mauy Thai headlock attack with knees and elbows using aikido....
Be at ease....There are ways to deal with Mauy Thai. My Aikido instructor has had an illustrious career as a fairly prominent fighter in Korea. He started the first Mauy Thai federations here and even won a few Mauy Thai tournaments in Thailand. Two of his Maui Thai students competed in the 1998 Asia Games in Bangkok and won the Silver and the Bronze in Mauy Thai. So he knows quite a bit about Mauy Thai. His Aikido practice started back in the late 80's under Yasuo Kobayashi Sensei, so he knows about Aikido. Put the two together and you get Aikido-esque ways to deal with Mauy Thai.
I'll endeavor to convey some of our practice but it will not be easy....

Evading the Clinch...as uke starts to wrap his arms around your neck, press up on one of the elbows, while lowering your center and duck your head under his elbow. This puts you in a good position to slide behind him and apply Iriminage or whatever...

If your in the Clinch...Lower your center, get your hips under you shoulders, close the distance between your hips and uke's hips (the closer your hips are together the harder it is for uke to throw a strong knee). If you can get your center lower then uke's hips, then you can straighten out your legs and you should displace his balance and you can give him something akin to aikiotoshi...

Breaking the Clinch...This is interesting and not necessarily easy ...If you're in the clinch you can break it utilizing a whole body coordinated movement. Alternate your left/right side, but for discussion purposes we'll use this specific example...start by getting your hips under your shoulders as much as possible, this allows your body to move as a coordinated whole rather than independent parts. Insert your right hand in-between uke's elbows; extend your left arm behind you and rotate the left side of your body away from uke while simultaneously extending your right side through uke placing your right forearm on the right side of uke's head/neck. Your extension will allow you to dislodge uke's grip and allow you the freedom to move into some pretty solid Aikido techniques.

Just some food for thought...there are many more examples out there and an infinite number of possibilities. Have fun sorting it all out.....
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Old 07-04-2005, 09:21 PM   #11
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Joseph... Mate! that is awesome. I will give that a go tonite. Cheers
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Old 07-05-2005, 04:56 AM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

The issue we typically run into in aikido is that we don't usually practice a fight from this position. I think what Joseph said is good stuff...give it a try.

I would not go so far as to say it is a weakness of aikido from an aikido perspective that we don't practice from this range, but a weakness of using aikido as a fighting system.

Aikido is typcially practticed as a DO art, so methodolgies typcially center around practices that do the best to convey the DO.

I too like to explore all ranges of the fight from weapons, to striking distance, to grappling distance. I am right now exploring grappling distance and ground fighting. Might want to check out Jason Delucia's videos...Lynn Seiser gave them a good review, I think they will show you options of aikido closer in.
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Old 07-05-2005, 06:14 PM   #13
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Joseph... Mate! Your suggestions on the clinch worked. My whole dojo is happy with the result, even my sempai was impressed. Aikido at this distance is hard, but the bloody thing worked. When Sensei gets back from his seminar abroad we will show him, chances are he probably knows something on the clinch as well, but we'll show him anyway. Cheers mate!

I suggest anyone that reads this thread should try it. Anyone that has an aikido technique against the muay thai clinch, defence against sharp elbows and heavy knees should write in this thread. Osensei always said that aiki is universal and complete; us aikidokas should help each other fill in the gaps and fill in the blanks. Spread the techniques that will make our aikido complete and really universal.
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Old 07-05-2005, 06:26 PM   #14
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Outstanding! I'm glad you were able to extrapolate the technique from my description. I wasn't sure if the descriptions were accurate enough, but good to hear that they were sufficient.....
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Old 07-05-2005, 06:34 PM   #15
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Joseph, if you have anymore techniques against the clinch I suggest "spread the Love" mate!

I am really curious and impress about your type of aikido, do you have any websites or links that shows a visual on your ryu or dojo's style?
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Old 07-05-2005, 08:56 PM   #16
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Not exactly. You can check out the following websites to get more information about us, but you won't see too much in terms of actual waza.

http://www.aikido.co.kr/
http://www.geocities.com/yongsanaikikai/

We're pretty much your standard Aikikai organization, with just a few folks having some unique expertise....
Youn Sensei, Chief instructor of the Korea Aikido Federation is really quite a good Aikido instructor, practicing with him has been pretty phenomenal. Youn Sensei's previous experience in Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Keoktugi and Mauy Thai add a real sense of validation for Aikido here in the Korean Martial Arts community. There is a link to a biographical interview I did with him on my Yongsanaikikai page. Additionally, we have a guy named Rupert Atkinson who recently published a book on Aikido in the UK. He has been here for about 10 years. His Aikido is very good as well, plus his background in Judo, Wing Chun Kung Fu and Jujitsu, makes learning from him fun as well. Enjoy the sites, and if you ever fancy a holiday in exotic Korea, give us a ring....

joe
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Old 07-05-2005, 11:31 PM   #17
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Dear Tubig,

I too was experimenting with the Muay Thai style type clinch yesterday night after class, unfortunately none of us are true Muay Thai practitioner... but we try anyway.

My adjutant sensei's response:
1) Just as I am about to go into the clinch, using the hiriki no yosei ichi type movement ala Yoshinkan syllabus, he blocked my clinch. Then he followed using a irimi-tsuki technique which he applied on my chin and titled my head backwards which resulted in a throw.

2) Next we tried when uke already got tori in the clinch and tori is busy applying the knee strike to the ribs. Again, adjutant sensei uses his tegatana to block my upward knee strikes, then using a leg sweep coupled with iriminage, he did put me down.

However, after some more experimenting, we decided aikido works best just before the clinch... when uke is coming in for the clinch. When uke has already got into the clinch... some modification (which include some atemi) are needed.

It was nice to experiment. But then, I never underestimate the Muay Thai guys. They can be tough nut to crack.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-06-2005, 01:43 AM   #18
Stethomas
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Hi All

My advise would be to just keep it simple, technique from uppercut.

KAITENAGE.

From a headlock you can always just bring your opposite arm over & across his face.

Last edited by Stethomas : 07-06-2005 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 07-06-2005, 03:50 AM   #19
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Not sure about the others, newby LOL. Some excellent feedback here though. Will try tonight, cheers.
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:50 AM   #20
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Was having a few beers and a couple of bottles of wine with a friend a few months back. He practices boxing and kick boxing and finally got round to the "I'm really curious to know how Aikido stacks against...".

I shouldn't have succumbed, but did. Whilst I'm no expert, I didn't come off too badly (and I know it's how good I am at my art vs how good he is at his art, and we were drunk etc.). One of the things he wanted to try was the head clinch pulling me onto a rising knee. I entered straight away using one arm to protect/ push against him, the other arm grabbed his crown jewels and squeezed hard, stopped the attack pretty quickly. Atemi worked for me

MAybe not the best way, but it was an instinctive reaction


rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 07-06-2005, 11:29 AM   #21
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

I like sokumen iriminage and shiho for the uppercut. Sokomen entry works well to set up the shiho...

Ron

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Old 07-06-2005, 07:28 PM   #22
Tubig
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Bryan mate... I think I will leave the crown jewels as my last resort. It is just not cricket mate.
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:03 AM   #23
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

Quote:
Cromwell Salvatera wrote:
Bryan mate... I think I will leave the crown jewels as my last resort. It is just not cricket mate.
Cromwell,

I was just demonstrating to him that there's no competition in Aikido, therefore no rules either


rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 07-07-2005, 10:13 AM   #24
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

in the clinch you can put either hand across the body and on the hip and push a bit so (right hand right hip) to prevent knees and keep the person off balance. now if you are bigger than your opp. drop a bit to get under their hips give them a hug and pick them up slightly so that their toes barely touch the mat/floor make sure to keep your head down and tight against the body to prevent getting punched. work it from there, same for the smaller person hug in tight with hands wrapped around the small of the back hug tight with hands and push with head in chest, most cases the opp will fall to the ground and let go
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:57 AM   #25
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido versus Knees and elbows

I cannot speak for Aikido 100% because I am not aikido and have a variety of different techniques that you may or may not have depending on your dojo but.....
1. get off the line
2. irimi
3. tenkan
4. blend & intercept
5. cut
For the clench: irimi, raise one of uke's elbows and cut the other one down, make tenkan as the raise and cut is made. SLOWLY in practice or uke will fly head over heels. This can be done at any time. If you so desire and uke's hands stay clenched go into suwariwaza and cut both elbows to center. Very important: you must maintain posture even if uke is still attached behind your head.
For elbows: how many techniques involve the wrist near your shoulder position? ikkyo nikyo yonkyo shihonage numerous garami kotegeashi... the list goes on. you can "catch" any of these from an elbow strike. For upwards strikes/uppercuts just evade the elbow and you have iriminage and tenchi nage already set up.
Knees: you have no balanceon one foot. find yourself a good pressurepoint and atemi HARD or just come up the face and cut downward and backwards while making irimi.

Just incase you didn't notice these are just the basic principles of how aikido works--in reality you dont get "techniques" per se unless you have very trained or they just happen but as long as you apply the principles you can easily hold your own against anyone as long as you have to.

Last edited by DustinAcuff : 07-07-2005 at 12:05 PM.
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