Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-11-2005, 01:03 PM   #1
ald1225
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17
Offline
Tenkan on piece of paper

During my last class, a student ask about the footwork in Aikido etc. So the sensei asks us to do some exericise trying to compare it Aikido footwork on and off the mat, and one of the exercise that he gave us is walking/doing the tenkan on a piece of paper while on the mat.

The same student mentioned that in a show called "Kung Fu" that they do this as part of their practice but the sensei said that he has not heard of the show but it's a actually a training method by some samurais back in the day.

I'm actually curious about if it's actually possible to do a tenkan/walking on a piece of paper without making an indent. I have managed to do with little indent. I think it's pretty cool and interesting at the same time. It must be the at work.

Anyone else have tried this or went through this exercise? Any thoughts?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2005, 08:22 PM   #2
Jerry Miller
 
Jerry Miller's Avatar
Location: Spring Tx
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 163
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

I remember the Kung Fu shows. They were walking on rice paper. I do not know anyone who has done this however.

Jerry Miller
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2005, 10:05 PM   #3
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

it seems kind of anti-aiki to do it in this manner IMHO. the sliding feet are there to always keep you with both feet firmly on the ground so that you can have balance. maybe it depends on the type of mat, the type of paper or the quality of your feet???? i'm stumped.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 03:19 AM   #4
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Walking the rice paper! Fantastic stuff starring David Carradine I believe...

Walking the rice paper and showing no trace of your steps afterwards showed you were able to graduate as a shaolin monk.

Beats taking a dan grading any day !
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 04:00 AM   #5
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

pah - dead easy, just varnish the rice paper first!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 04:49 AM   #6
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 346
England
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Not quite the same thing, but almost...

Many years ago, when Kanetsuka Sensei was still living in Oxford, my father and I were practising some jo movements with him on his lawn.

After twenty minutes or so, Sensei stopped, and pointed at the grass. "Look at the mess you have made of the lawn!". Where the two of us had been tramping heavily, the grass was worn down to mud in places, while where Sensei had been there was almost no disturbance whatsoever...

Alex
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 06:05 AM   #7
guest89893
Dojo: Jihonjuku/ St.Pete. FL
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Walking the rice paper and showing no trace of your steps afterwords showed you were able to graduate as a shaolin monk.
Beats taking a dan grading any day !
But remember Daren, the main part of the Shaolin monk test was to lift very large metal pot filled with stones that sat over a hot fire. You lifted it with your forearms, thus burning the images of the tiger and the dragon on the monk's forearms.
Well at least due to the intense heat of the iron pot, you knew the tattoo equipment was sterile.
Gene
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 06:24 AM   #8
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Gene Martinelli wrote:
But remember Daren, the main part of the Shaolin monk test was to lift very large metal pot filled with stones that sat over a hot fire. You lifted it with your forearms, thus burning the images of the tiger and the dragon on the monk's forearms.
Well at least due to the intense heat of the iron pot, you knew the tattoo equipment was sterile.
Gene
Oh I remember this alright...I used to love it!

Of course you may also be showing your age now Gene!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 09:04 AM   #9
Jory Boling
 
Jory Boling's Avatar
Dojo: A.K.I.,Misakikai Dojo
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 193
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Walking the rice paper! Fantastic stuff starring David Carradine I believe...

Walking the rice paper and showing no trace of your steps afterwards showed you were able to graduate as a shaolin monk.

Beats taking a dan grading any day !
yes. in conjunction with grabbing the pebble from Master Po's hand (i have season 1 on DVD)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 09:17 AM   #10
cguzik
Location: Tulsa, OK
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 166
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
it seems kind of anti-aiki to do it in this manner IMHO. the sliding feet are there to always keep you with both feet firmly on the ground so that you can have balance. maybe it depends on the type of mat, the type of paper or the quality of your feet???? i'm stumped.
One must be able to move freely without losing one's connection to the ground. If you cannot turn without lifting both your feet, you are stuck. If you lift both your feet to turn, how can you maintain your connection to the ground?

Perhaps the exercise with the paper provides a learning experience to help understand this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 11:23 AM   #11
guest89893
Dojo: Jihonjuku/ St.Pete. FL
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Oh I remember this alright...I used to love it!

Of course you may also be showing your age now Gene!
What showing my age...Hhmmnn...I know, I saw it on the TV land channel, yeah that's it reruns...
Actually, one of the interesting bits of trivia surrounding that movie, was the person they considered for the main role was Bruce Lee.
So as to not completely hijack this thread, let's see if can add some detail to the rice paper walking.
"Grasshopper, sit here near me while we talk. It is said, Look for he can not be seen. Listen for he can not be heard..."
It demonstrates great control of your balance/grounding being able to shift so the weight of your body does not press as you step, thus making no sound nor leaving a trail. It is a combat skill for recon, also hunting -since Native -Americans of several tribes were suppose to be quite adept at, too. Ninja practice it(how else you going to sneak up on us warriors), So know thy enemy and the weapons of the enemy and how they are used. Why rice paper? Because rice paper is among the most fragile of substance and almost impossible not to tear. That and it was what they had on hand. It is not a fast moving walk, rather painfully slow and involves really being able to shift your balance & weight up & down as well across the body. Oh, I almost forgot to give credit for the other group who were adept at it. The Scotsmen who were hunters and assigned to protect the royal forests from poachers. This is the group that the "guilly suit" (sp) came from that a version is in use with todays military snipers.
But hey, what do I know. We've already established that I'm old , in fact at my next birthday if you calculate it in dog years I'll be .
Gene
anybody see where I put my walker, ehh? Ehh! Speak up I can't see to good you know.

Last edited by guest89893 : 07-12-2005 at 11:26 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2005, 10:48 PM   #12
ald1225
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

I rented the show Kung Fu, I'm sorry that seems to be a very bad show way back then.

Anyway the lesson from doing the tenkan on the piece of paper is to not to actually rely on the mat too much. While doing the tenkan, the paper should not move that much. And it's easier to move with one point towards the direction that one wants to.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2005, 11:08 PM   #13
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 210
South Korea
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

How big a piece of paper are we talking about? An 8x10? Are both feet on the paper? or is it one piece of paper under one foot?
In the Kung Fu series, which I'll admit seems a bit corny now, but back when I was watching it as a kid seemed really cool, Caine walked on a long strech of rice paper, which tears easily.
So, one big piece or two small pieces under each foot? Recycled paper, Ok?
Interesting idea, will have to give it a try...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2005, 04:41 AM   #14
intersimi
Dojo: Shinwakai
Location: Reading
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 14
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote:
Not quite the same thing, but almost...

Many years ago, when Kanetsuka Sensei was still living in Oxford, my father and I were practising some jo movements with him on his lawn.

After twenty minutes or so, Sensei stopped, and pointed at the grass. "Look at the mess you have made of the lawn!". Where the two of us had been tramping heavily, the grass was worn down to mud in places, while where Sensei had been there was almost no disturbance whatsoever...

Alex
It was his grass though

regards

Intersimi
http://www.martialforum.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2005, 06:23 AM   #15
guest89893
Dojo: Jihonjuku/ St.Pete. FL
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Aldrich Senar wrote:
I rented the show Kung Fu, I'm sorry that seems to be a very bad show way back then.

Anyway the lesson from doing the tenkan on the piece of paper is to not to actually rely on the mat too much. While doing the tenkan, the paper should not move that much. And it's easier to move with one point towards the direction that one wants to.
No Aldrich by today 's standards it would not be very entertaining. Not to mention in today's world - the show's martial arts content and the techniques done by David Carradine would fill up all these MA websites ad nauseam in how lousy, why did they do this technique instead, etc...
Out of curiosity how does one rely on the mat to much while doing TENKAN? I grant that I rely on the mat too much when doing UKEMI, but not sure how I could be relying on the mat while doing TENKAN?
Thanks Gene
p.s. If you thought the show Kung Fu was bad then don't ever rent the Batman TV series with Adam West as Batman.

Last edited by guest89893 : 07-19-2005 at 06:26 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2005, 07:47 AM   #16
EricH
Dojo: Aikido Institute of Newfoundland
Location: St. John's Newfoundland
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5
Canada
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

I am old enough to have seen the original Kung Fu series when it first aired ( although I was quite young at the time!) In its day it was a pretty good show. It launched me on a life-long study of the martial arts. The previous posts are correct - a long sheet of rice paper was unrolled on the ground and the initiate was supposed to walk the length without tearing it. I would point out that they walked forward in a straight line, they did not try to turn or pivot. I think they were trying to prove a different point.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 10:09 PM   #17
ald1225
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

The instructor explained that the move the piece of paper as a little as possible. The paper that we used was regular 8 x 11 1/2 paper (with kyu testing requirements on the other side, lol ). He mentioned that a newspaper works best. The foot that's supposed to stay on the paper is the one that you step forward with.

When I said relying too much on the mat, I meant was using the ball of you foot on the mat to pivot, instead he made us do lift our feet... just a wee bit. Doing tenkan on a mat is way different than the rough surface of what we walk on. I think he wanted us to do the same thing as if we were not on the mat.

Is that the batman with "wow" "ouch" "kapow" with Robin wearing stockings... I enjoyed that show back then, but looking at right now... it is corny... sort of like Kung Fu... hmm
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 10:34 PM   #18
Charlie
 
Charlie's Avatar
Location: Elgin, IL
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 165
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

So you shift your weight to your back foot in order to turn by lifting your foot slightly (just a wee bit)?

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

"Calmness is trust in action"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 10:59 PM   #19
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 210
South Korea
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

I never thought that it made a difference whether you turned on the ball or heel or whatever of your foot, and perhaps that is your instructors point. Mitsunari Kanai Sensei has a video out that explains some really kinesiological aspects of various aikido movements, and one of the points that I took away from that video is that movement is initiated in the hips, and the feet will take care of themselves.
When I first started aikido, and attempted the tenkan motion, my thinking was firmly rooted in the positioning and motion of my feet. I equated the the foot rotation to the US Army's "rear march" from its parade drills. I now understand that this is erroneous.
By focusing the motion in the hips, you can easily control variations in the weight dispersement on the feet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 03:52 AM   #20
Olaf
Dojo: Aikido Dojo Rodgau
Location: Rodgau
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26
Germany
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
So you shift your weight to your back foot in order to turn by lifting your foot slightly (just a wee bit)?
Well,
on the street, when I walk I always lift one foot at a time, step forward with it (yes, during that motion all the weight is on the back foot) - and guess what, I don't need to shift weight/hips back to the back foot in order to be able to lift the other foot for taking the step. WIthout any thinking, the hips is moving forward constantly. I don't know about you guys, but I guess that's how you walk, too. Why would be movement in Aikido anyway different - especially considering that natural movement is the ideal we strive for?!
Just a thought
Olaf

Olaf Schubert
Aikido Dojo Rodgau
www.aikido-dojo-rodgau.de
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 05:29 AM   #21
Charlie
 
Charlie's Avatar
Location: Elgin, IL
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 165
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Olaf Schubert wrote:
Well,
on the street, when I walk I always lift one foot at a time, step forward with it (yes, during that motion all the weight is on the back foot) - and guess what, I don't need to shift weight/hips back to the back foot in order to be able to lift the other foot for taking the step. WIthout any thinking, the hips is moving forward constantly. I don't know about you guys, but I guess that's how you walk, too. Why would be movement in Aikido anyway different - especially considering that natural movement is the ideal we strive for?!
Just a thought
Olaf
Didn't know we where talking about walking forward. Thought the poster was talking about turning. I don't recall any of MY teachers saying anything about taking a normal walking step during the course of tenkan/tai no henko (2). As a matter of fact, there has always been discussion as to taking a shuffle type step where the back foot comes up fast behind the leading foot when advancing.

Of course I failed to mention this because I noticed that the original poster is from the Ki society. As it is, I come from the Yoshinkan side of the family so I refrained from drawing a comparison between our different way of doing things.

Anyway...was trying to get a picture in my head as to how one can turn on the front foot with their weight shifted to their back foot. Sounds to me like stepping -not turning.

That being said...there are a lot of things that change in the course of having to perform techniques "on the street". Giving up my stable posture for one that is shifting is not what I'm looking for. However, I don't plan on being able to turn like I do in the dojo either.

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

"Calmness is trust in action"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2005, 08:27 AM   #22
guest89893
Dojo: Jihonjuku/ St.Pete. FL
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Quote:
Aldrich Senar wrote:
The instructor explained that the move the piece of paper as a little as possible. The paper that we used was regular 8 x 11 1/2 paper (with kyu testing requirements on the other side, lol ). He mentioned that a newspaper works best. The foot that's supposed to stay on the paper is the one that you step forward with.

When I said relying too much on the mat, I meant was using the ball of you foot on the mat to pivot, instead he made us do lift our feet... just a wee bit. Doing tenkan on a mat is way different than the rough surface of what we walk on. I think he wanted us to do the same thing as if we were not on the mat.

Is that the batman with "wow" "ouch" "kapow" with Robin wearing stockings... I enjoyed that show back then, but looking at right now... it is corny... sort of like Kung Fu... hmm
Thank you for explaining. Yes I agree, it is interesting to train and feel your movement and technique on different surfaces. At the Dojo were I train we have a fairly firm and fast mat, one of the places that I teach at has a "rather old" (translation ancient) and it is rather soft & tacky/sticky-ish. A difference felt in your movement and balance. And yes that is the Batman show I mean - yes it is sometimes rather amazing to see what does and does not stand the test of time.
Thanks again,
Gene
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 11:33 AM   #23
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
United_States
Offline
Re: Tenkan on piece of paper

Charles what the poster was describing (weight to back foot and turning on front) sounds just like a common irimi tenkan using the sliding feet. Weight displacment sounds a little off but basically correct.

Speaking of intresting surfaces to train on, we are about to start doing our techniques on stairs. YAY!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Irimi or Omote?!!! Chikai Aikidoka Techniques 31 01-16-2007 08:56 AM
Hips, 3000 Techniques & 16 Variations Erick Mead Training 5 07-12-2006 10:23 AM
Irimi vs Tenkan Rupert Atkinson General 46 12-03-2005 07:03 AM
Notes on the "street effectivity" issue drDalek General 19 03-27-2004 06:15 AM
Ýrimi and Tenkan BBozkurt Techniques 1 12-04-2002 08:33 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:33 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate