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Old 06-20-2005, 01:21 PM   #26
Pankration90
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Who says kata is a solo exercise? I know Shioda, in "Dynamic Aikido," refers to our partner training as kata.
My mistake, I was thinking of the solo drills done in a lot of striking styles. I'm sure he had done 'kata' before, the kung fu version of it by himself.
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Old 06-20-2005, 03:54 PM   #27
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I see people training in what they like to believe is *cooperative practice* where they use too much forecefullness in an attempt to be "effective" - all of the time. The fact is that they are missing a main point of aikido development - to be able to do more with less.
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the clarification. Being able to do more with less is very important imo. But from my experience it requires a person to develop a keen sense for openings and weak lines of balance and relaxed, economic ways of body movement to achieve more with less and also execute effective technique while being very relaxed.

It's a good challenge and goal to be achieved in one's training though.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 06-20-2005, 05:49 PM   #28
Adam Alexander
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What's interesting is this by statement by the author of the article:
"Morihei Ueshiba apparently did not approve of the kata training method, believing that "static" prearrangement of techniques interfered with the direct, spontaneous transmission of techniques from the gods."

In other words, leaving out the bit about "from the gods", Ueshiba did not believe in using kata. He also did not believe in using randorii, IIRC. The question becomes who is right in their recommendations, Ueshiba or Diane Skoss? Ueshiba or Tomiki? Lots of questions.

Mike

I wonder if it's not something of an issue of context. I get the impression that it's referring to long katas.

Although I'm not in the top echelons of Aikido training, I suspect that there's no Aikido katas that match the length of those in other arts.
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Old 06-21-2005, 06:32 AM   #29
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

I don't know about that. I'd say that 31 step Jo kata is as long as - if not longer - than many katas in other arts.

Rob
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Old 06-21-2005, 07:02 AM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I wonder if it's not something of an issue of context. I get the impression that it's referring to long katas.

Although I'm not in the top echelons of Aikido training, I suspect that there's no Aikido katas that match the length of those in other arts.
By coincidence, I've been having a conversation offline with someone else about the jo katas. I was watching Koichi Tohei's perforemance on an old clip that Stan Pranin has up for view. I always tend to shrug off Tohei's "hopping" as some weird quirk (martially it can have problems since a knowledgeable opponent will take advantage of those moments because you have no power), but I noticed that Tohei does the hopping in his performance of jo kata. I happen to have about four good DVD's of prominent Chinese "short staff" (read "jo") practitioners, and Tohei's kata is so similar to one of the styles, including the "hopping" that I'm going to have to go back and look to see how closely they match. What I'm saying is that the jo kata may represent a "borrow" that may be a little outside of the basic idea of Aikido. In other words, and I state this as a possibility only (until I can do some more looking), if we were to discuss the training methods in Aikido, I personally wouldn't include the jo katas as a meaningful part of the discussion, for the moment.

What I *would* include as being far more important than most people seem to think, is the Aiki-taiso and Taisabaki. Those are the "katas" of Aikido and they are where I think most people miss the point. I also think that a huge point is similarly being missed in ken practice and suburi.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:11 AM   #31
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
a little outside of the basic idea of Aikido
I'll bite. What are the suspected benefits of about hopping in jo katas in any system or the "Tohei Hop"?

Rob
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:23 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

On kata in aikido....There are different perspectives. Ueshiba is pretty well known to dislike kata, as Mrs. Skoss pointed out. But the fact remains that Gozo Shioda, Tomiki, and other prewar students refered to quite a bit of aikido as 'kata practice'. The mainline of Daito ryu also refers to much of its practice as 'kata practice'. Since the empty hand techniques in Aikido come directly from Daito ryu this has to bear some weight. The early works of Ueshiba (Budo and Budo Renshu) also seem to present kata form. The kata displayed there can be directly traced to the Yoshinkan, Iwama and Shirata Sensei forms you see today.

Interestingly enough, when I spoke with Stevens Sensei about this, his perspective was that in fact aikido techniques as practiced in the dojo were NOT kata, but something different. His idea of kata is influenced by his exposure to more classical arts, where kata (in his perception anyway) are more 'strict' in the movement and response of shite and uke. You don't change the angles, distance, etc. for the situation...you do your best to present the kata exactly as it was taught (again, this seemed to be his opinion). Perhaps Ellis or others more familiar with classical training can weigh in here on this point. Karl Friday's 'Legacy of the Sword' has some interesting points about kata in japanese martial art as well. I also seem to remember the descriptions of how S. Takeda Sensei demonstrated technique as not being as static as you might think of classical kata (a point perhaps on whether or not Daito ryu is koryu, reconstructed or otherwise).

I personally think Ueshiba was focused on 'Takemusu Aiki', or the phase of martial art which is beyond the training methodology of kata. Most of us would like to get to that stage...but I know I'm far from it, and 99% of the time, I am practicing kata (loose definition of kata). Hopefully as time goes by, less of the kata, more of the Takemusu. I think there are good arguements on both sides of this discussion.

On jo waza/kata being an add-on to aikido, as opposed to ken or tachi waza...I'm not sure. The history of the jo techniques does seem fuzzier than the ken or tachi waza (Meik Skoss has some good points on this on fa.iaido). Aiki-taiso and Taisbaki as kata...well, typically, kata refers to two man sets of waza in japanese martial art (as opposed to Okinawan). I don't know that I'd refer to them as kata at all. But they do indeed have a high place in keiko.

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-21-2005, 09:31 AM   #33
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I'll bite. What are the suspected benefits of about hopping in jo katas in any system or the "Tohei Hop"?
Most of the "hops" (skips, leaps, whatever) that are done in forms practices are to move into position, change position, etc., so they are legitimate in that sense. It's doing a "hop" while you are in engagement (e.g., "connected", etc.) to your opponent that is the no-no.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-21-2005, 09:42 AM   #34
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
On jo waza/kata being an add-on to aikido, as opposed to ken or tachi waza...I'm not sure. The history of the jo techniques does seem fuzzier than the ken or tachi waza (Meik Skoss has some good points on this on fa.iaido). Aiki-taiso and Taisbaki as kata...well, typically, kata refers to two man sets of waza in japanese martial art (as opposed to Okinawan). I don't know that I'd refer to them as kata at all. But they do indeed have a high place in keiko.
I'm not sure about the jo kata, either, Ron, but it seems anomalous... so my inclination is simply to leave it alone as an indicator of Aikido practice. "Kata" means simply a form for practice and in that sense I point out Aiki-taiso and Taisabaki because they are the body-training "forms" that are so important.

When I took Uechi-ryu karate on Okinawa, I learned Sanchin as a first "kata".... it's a kata that goes across several styles. I missed the fact (as has just about every other westerner, if you'll check all the writings by the western "experts") that Sanchin is primarily not only a tension and breathing exercise, it's also a ki and kokyu exercise. I didn't know enough to see it... now it's obvious. When I took Aikido, I didn't really know how to do the Aiki-Taiso and the Taisabaki (the principles are immutable, BTW, so this isn't an "impression")... now I do. And for the most part, those form exercises are quite comparable to the purpose that Sanchin kata serves in karate. That's why I gave my opinion about Aiki-Taiso and Taisabaki being equivalent to kata.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-21-2005, 09:57 AM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

I know the jo kata seems to have a prominent place in 'misogi' in at least some interpretations of Ueshiba's aikido (here is an example of a solo 'kata' in aikido, so perhaps you are right). I'm starting to realize that a lot of the references to 'misogi' are ki training of one sort or another...perhaps there would be some tie in to the rest of the practice from that angle?

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-21-2005, 10:15 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I know the jo kata seems to have a prominent place in 'misogi' in at least some interpretations of Ueshiba's aikido (here is an example of a solo 'kata' in aikido, so perhaps you are right). I'm starting to realize that a lot of the references to 'misogi' are ki training of one sort or another...perhaps there would be some tie in to the rest of the practice from that angle?
Well, the old saying is that a weapon is simply an extension of the hand. First you learn to move with ki and kokyu with the hands and body, then you apply that way of movement to a weapon. Usually.

In the case of Aikido, my suggestion would be a person practice Aikido (remember, all this ki-strength stuff without technique, ma-ai, timing, etc., is as wrong as technique without ki-strength) techniques slowly while also doing the Aiki-Taiso and Tai-sabaki repetitively, slowly, and with kokyu-ryoku.... but I would also stress my conviction that correct suburi practice is equally important and productive. The jo can be swung and poked, pulled, etc., with the same body skills, but because of the spinning and stuff, my instinct is to leave the complex jo movements until later and use the bokken as the training weapon of choice. But that's just my opinion.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-21-2005, 02:18 PM   #37
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

I would like to slightly return this to topic…


I think that most would agree that a balance of theory (e.g. "blending requires less energy than not blending"), practice (e.g. doing Suwari waza Shomenuchi Ikkyo Omote in the dojo), and application (.e.g. getting the arm-bar in a real life encounter) is a good thing. This is especially true, I would propose, in regards to the context and manner of this discussion here.

However, let us see if we are willing to take this to its natural conclusion. In particular, I would suggest that if we truly want to appreciate such a balance, we are going to have to find the validity of our martial perspectives within that balance. That is to say, anyone that takes a balance of theory, practice, and application seriously is going to mark what is martially valid only by what can by deemed as such according to all three aspects simultaneously. One is not going to say that something if valid in theory or overall when it cannot work in practice and/or function in application. Nor will one say that something is valid in application or overall when it cannot be supported by theory and/or work in practice (which must include the continuing refinement of theory and practice). Yet, while I see that a lot of us are quite willing to say that a balance of these three aspects of training is best, many of us are quite willing to lay great foundations of our training upon discrepancies and/or contradictions located somewhere within the original tripartite.

Here is an example for consideration:

This one just happened this morning: We are working on Suwari-waza Shomenuchi Kote-gaeshi. One of my Ikkyu ranks, a deputy sheriff, about 250 lbs., lots of hands-on experience in the field, training with one of my Sankyu ranks, a single-mom of two kids, no prior martial arts training nor athletic history of any kind, weighing about 110 to 120 lbs. (max), is doing that version of Kote-gaeshi where you keep all of the energy in the wrist joint by pulling on the hand more than you should. Being Suwari-waza and thus closer to the ground, such a tactic does architecturally provide enough energy in relation to the apex of the movement to get Uke to turn over. The added pain located in the wrist assists with the turning over by motivating Uke to do thus. In addition, the mass and muscle discrepancy adds as well to the outcome (i.e. Uke turning over). This is how it is understood theoretically, according to the sciences of biomechanics and physics, etc. That is to say, theoretically it's operation is seen for what it is: Thoroughly limited in its application, particularly concerning opponents of larger mass and muscle and/or opponents not prone to the culture pressures of the training environment. However, let us go on. Say this deputy sheriff goes out in the field and does this very same Kote-gaeshi version. In addition, let us say he is doing it on a "resisting" subject (by legal definition) of equal and/or greater mass and muscle. It "works." That is to say, it worked now in class (in practice) and it worked in the field (in application). However, it is still inferior theoretically. Theoretically, even in the field, it is seen as sub par. When one comes to look at why and how it worked in the field, one starts to see the same sort of conditions that were present when it worked in practice. One sees that the suspect was not "resisting" all that much, and/or one sees that whereas a training culture was not present the weight of the entire national culture was baring down upon the suspect -- such that he resisted but only up to a certain point. What theory provides is awareness of that point. In both cases, that point was not crossed and hence the energy prints present remained within the operative window of that technique. What you end up with is a technique that works under some very limited conditions -- no matter how present they have been up until now.

Next, you go to spontaneous training, against folks that have every intention to defeat you -- to be the one that comes out victorious. Here, let us say, this person tries that version of Kote-geashi. Repeatedly it is easily countered because there is no Angle of Cancellation affecting the whole of the opponent's body. In addition, there is also no Angle of Disturbance affecting his/her base of support. And now that we are standing, the energy delivered in relation to the apex is not enough to achieve anything but a wrist sprain, dislocation, or break, but only in those folks that aren't capable of capitalizing upon the absence of both an Angle of Cancellation and an Angle of Disturbance. For anybody else, which is most skilled folks intent on victory, the energy put into the wrist is only either a minor nuisance or an opening to be capitalized upon (since one now has his/her hands in the same place at the same time -- losing one's positioning checks and/or capacity to trap, etc.)

From the start, this is exactly what theory would say this version would be under any conditions more serious than participation in convention-laden culture involving someone that weights 100 lbs. less then you and/or is not all that out to have the entire State come down on him/her.

For me, the same thing could be said about some of the demonstrations now visible on Aiki Expo DVDs. First, let me note that these are a great buy and that there is plenty worthy of looking at and/or considering very deeply. I highly recommend the purchase. I mention some of it here only as a common point of reference. In some of the demonstrations, you see a lot of "drilling" that seems to be misunderstood as practice and/or as application. Some of the connection drills, that are important, are being extended way beyond their capacity for some aikidoka, and I feel that a big contributor to this is that folks are looking at what "worked" and not seeing the hows and whys -- not applying any theoretical investigations along with their practice and/or application. In the end, the considerations and conventions necessary for extending a drill beyond it's nature are going unnoticed. This, I feel, can be said about a lot of our Aikido world today.

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-21-2005, 02:38 PM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

David,

Agreed. With a capital A. One question, are you talking about the Demo, the classes, or both?

Side note...what is expected to be shown at a demo? We know these are with compliant uke, right? How much application vs practice or theory should be present in a demo?

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-21-2005, 03:24 PM   #39
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Great post David. I enjoyed reading it.

Brings things right back to the question of "It worked, but is it good?"

Skilled resistance changes things greatly, can even cause one to re-evaluate what constitutes sound, theoretically correct technique.

LC

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Old 06-21-2005, 03:33 PM   #40
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Hi Ron,

I can only refer to the demonstrations -- as that was the only thing viewable on the DVDs. However, based upon what I did see in the demonstrations, I would be very surprised if such reasoning and practice did not also support what was taught in some of the classes.

I would like to make it clear that I am not out to raise the old debate of "compliant uke vs. non-compliant uke," or even to raise the issue over what a demonstration is and/or is not, etc. This is not to say that these things are not relevant, only that I was trying to refer to a very specific thing: when a drill is presented and/or practiced beyond its constructs due to an ignorance surrounding the hows and whys of that drill and/or whatever practice or application it may be presented under.

In particular, I was referring to the obvious blending exercises that were being "stretched" in order to fulfill a given practice and thus an assumed application. In my opinion, the thing with drills is that they are set to cultivate one or a few particular attributes. This a drill will do at all costs, such that a drill will reject its inevitable conclusion for the sake of recommencing itself repeatedly. A drill does this because the attribute being cultivated is held up to be of more importance then the conclusion of the drill itself. As a result, because the conclusion of the drill is not of significance, those things that are relative to such a conclusion are also deemed as low priority or even as totally irrelevant. What we see in many of the demonstrations is an unawareness of this process. That is to say, what we see is a misapplication of the drill's tendencies to forgo conclusions (plus all that is related to a conclusion) for the sake of achieving an action and/or application that could not have taken place otherwise. Thus, we see moves that are conclusions but that are full of openings and/or that are dependent upon the "drills" tendency to make such openings irrelevant.

Here is one example: Many of the connection and/or blending drills in Aikido make use of both leading and following. Usually, Nage leads, and Uke follows. Through leading and following, via this drill, the dynamics of connection and leading, which are viable martial concepts, are both analyzed and embodied (over time). However, when such a drill is stretched beyond its intended capacity, due to a theoretical ignorance, one has a tendency to wrongly take martial concepts like leading and connection into practice and/or application while remaining hugely dependent upon (uke) following (which can only be relative to the drill and not to application). Following is one of those elements particular to the drill's intention of repeating itself and not concluding. When this is not understood, you start to see tactical architectures and/or suggested geometries that could not produce their suggested outcome (e.g. a front breakfall or a radical redirection of motion, etc.) outside of the contrived "reality' in which it is being demonstrated (i.e. an environment where following is practiced but no longer seen as that element particular to a connection drill repeating itself/not ending). More than wanting to talk about Uke that just go flying for no reason and/or that jump in the air as high as they can for more added affect, I am referring to tactical architectures that fail even within their own assumptions. For example: The body does not flip over itself because you have a stick in front of it and swing down; the body does not reverse direction because you guide it thusly by the wrist; the body does not fall backwards because you attack the back of the legs with the jo; etc. These things only happen when Uke is "following." These reactions, I would suggest, seem to "work" because one is not investigating them theoretically -- such that the culture that is supporting them as "working" does not come into question and/or is not exposed for the misapplication of a drill that it is. What I am referring to is that odd blindness that comes to us via our tactical architectures when we go with what "worked" and leave theoretical validation and/or investigation to the wayside.

Anyways, that is some of what I have been thinking.

I would love to hear more of your take as well Ron. Please/thanks.

david

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Old 06-21-2005, 03:34 PM   #41
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Skilled resistance changes things greatly, can even cause one to re-evaluate what constitutes sound, theoretically correct technique.

Excellent point Larry.

d

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Old 06-21-2005, 03:55 PM   #42
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

so much talk about how poor the technique was. How about this one.

http://www.dkbnews.com/flash/2005/movie01.swf
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Old 06-21-2005, 10:29 PM   #43
Lan Powers
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

WOW!! Now that's the best response to a jerk I have seen lately. Not too good an idea to get caught in a headlock, but it happens anyway. Gotta love her full commitment.
Lan

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Old 06-22-2005, 07:23 AM   #44
rob_liberti
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Yeah, that's a cool video. I've seen that before, and I love it.

David,

I didn't watch much of the demos except some of the free clips. I agree with your ideas here from the perspective of training a nage to defend themselves from more of the average real world situation. However, what about the perspective of training the uke to actively move to a safer position for them and a more dangerous position for the other person? Techniques change a lot when both uke and nage are doing that. I agree that skilled resistance is important - but I'm thinking about one of the many "skills" of uke. If a training metholodogy gets people moving out of senitivity to danger, that's not all that terrible - as long as - the nage understands that aspect and does not actually depend on it for their actual self defense in a real world situation. I think sometimes training is very good to just focus on being able to do more with less. I just also happen to think that sometimes a really good way to expand my training is to actually draw out and extend the technique being practiced for a long as possible - which challenges me to improve my ability to maintain that fragile connection - which is at the heart of the whole do more with less idea in the first place. I see too many "strong-arm-bandits" in aikido. I don't want people practicing martial nonsense, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

Rob
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:24 AM   #45
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Hi Rob,

This is a good point Rob. As I said, I understand the logic of the drill. However, my issue is when we see that logic being unknowingly used to create the actual geometry for falling (whether thrown or pin -- having a topsy-turvy affect on Uke's body) in a given tactical architecture. My point only slightly overlaps with issues of self-defense, and only because of the natural tendency for delusion to spread. Thus, I would rather not have to talk about self-defense issues. I am referring solely to tactical architectures (i.e. waza) being reliant upon drill constructs that were originally put in place to keep the drill going (i.e. those things of reality that the drill denies in order to repeat itself continuously).

For example, take the idea that one can get the whole body to turn in the reverse direction by simply guiding the wrist in a big circle from a cross-lateral grab or point of contact. This was quite prevalent throughout the demonstrations. It was often used as the necessary opening for Ikkyo. I would suggest, it is one thing to do a drill where such redirection is being used to develop the skills you are noting, but it is another thing to have our architectures rely upon it. Specifically, I am referring to how Nage then comes to make zero or near-zero use of Uke's elbow as the main point of contact for actual redirection and/or fails to see how the wrist should actually be allowed more to go straight along its original path of action than curving away from it. Moreover, I would say that when our architectures become so reliant upon elements that are particular to the drill, we even lose that which we were trying to gain in the drill. Meaning, Uke often ends up moving into a place from which he/she is more vulnerable, Uke becomes less sensitive to Nage, etc.

When the cost of implementing drill methodologies into our tactical architectures is to practice invalid biomechanics and/or to rely upon a deluded sense of the physical world, I believe it is time to find better ways of getting what the drill is providing without relying upon it in our tactical architectures. An easy way of doing this is just to keep the drill the drill. Another way is to use the following, the connection, etc., from the drill without needing it for the final geometry for falling. As an example of this, I would site Ikeda's demonstration. He found ways of using aspects of following, of leading, of connection, as the matrix of his demonstration while still opting to work with real-world physics for the throw or pin. As a result, his uke were highly sensitive, highly responsive, and fully capable of remaining safe -- not the opposite.

If your Uke goes flying because your hand is resting lightly on their elbow, or not at all, this Uke is not responding to what you as Nage are doing. They are responding to what the training culture says they should be doing for that cue. In this way, in actuality, Uke is out of touch with both Nage and reality. Uke's sensitivity is as manufactured as the tenets of the training culture are, and thus Uke, through a lack of insight, is actually experiencing more alienation than oneness or harmony or any other similar concepts when it comes to directly relating to Nage and/or reality. When Nage comes to relate to Uke through this same process of alienation, this same process of not relating to each other directly but only through the tenets of the training culture, Nage too experiences more alienation than connection, oneness, blending, harmony, etc.

This alienation, I would propose, seems to be becoming an acceptable standard. Why? I would suggest because folks are making the mistake of seeing what "worked" as what "works." An Uke, once engrained in the training culture, and/or fully in the middle of the process of alienation, is not fully aware of themselves at the level of practice. That is to say, they just do what they do. What ends up happening then is that such an Uke will come to interpret what he/she is experiencing (e.g. a redirection of their energy by contact at the wrist only) as being absent of their will and/or of any kind of contrived elements when it is anything but. At this point, an Uke feels something works because it worked on them. If one gives equal weight to theoretical reflection, one can see clearly that such a thing only worked because of the training culture and/or that such a thing works only when the assumptions of training culture are present. For me, this is an important thing to realize no matter what our stated reasons for training may be.

david

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:49 AM   #46
rob_liberti
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

I can't argue with that. I think the simple solution for that kind of thing is to go to many other dojos and check how your aikido works or doesn't with different ukes from different dojo cultures. I would think that the aiki-expo would potentially be an example of a pretty good opportunity for such an exploration.

I suppose it takes honest self reflection as well, as opposed to going away from a failed throw thinking it is because that uke just doesn't know how to take ukemi. (Which can be the case, but should be an insurmountable problem.)

Rob
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:33 AM   #47
senshincenter
 
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Well I feel that would be a possible solution as well - especially when honest self-reflection is involved. Heck, maybe with honest self-reflection one could even stay right where he or she was and figure it all out too. :-)

thanks for replying,

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:48 AM   #48
rob_liberti
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

Good point! But even my best sempai (from various dojos) sometimes give me their balance in a technique before I'm really convinced things are working. (I love to travel to all different places.) The "honest self reflection" touches on what I've been working on (in my mind) as a concept called "complete self trust". I want to have that martially as well as just mentally. I think it requires a lot of help from various ukes and various styles of taking ukemi. I suppose that could happen in one place, but as you suggested, delusion spreads despite our best intentions.

Thanks,
Rob
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:50 PM   #49
glennage
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

At best you see what we've all known since kindergarten... a big guy can usually beat up a small guy. You'd think we could now all watch a big guy and realize that a lot of the "effectiveness" of his techniques is quite often the effect of mass and inertia and strength.

Mike

I'm with you there Mike. in my opinion a true master should hide his skills right to the very last then unleash hell, that stance would have had me laughing in his face. interestingly though i read in a Geoff Thompson book that some guy won a fight just by adopting a kung fu stance and screaming! obviously an effective deterrant and it seemed to knock the punks confidence before the punch did.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:53 PM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: That it works, don't make it good.

IMHO, a true master wouldn't necessarily hide his skill. To do so might entice his opponent into figting against what he percieves is a weaker opponent, which makes the master a big part of the problem and hence not a master.

A master is one that can leave his ego at the door, and de-escalate the fight to nothing. A master also may make his skill known to his opponent so his opponent would realize that attacking him would be futile. The master give the opponent an out in a gracious matter that does not further complicate the situation through humiliation.

Those are my thoughts....
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