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Old 05-03-2001, 04:38 PM   #26
TheProdigy
Dojo: Aikido Kokikai Delaware
Location: Delaware, USA
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Hey,

First, I'd like to say Steve was simply sharing his thoughts on the subject, which is what this is here for. This is NOT here for attacking people doing that.

In getting back on subject... I was always told if someone points a gun at you, just throw em what they want and run (ie car keys, wallet, etc.). If your in broad daylight, chances are they wont shoot. If it's midnight and your in an alley who knows.. just pray and hope if they do...

Of course it all depends on where your at, what time it is, and in some places your skin color at the time(unfortunate, but true...).

-Jase

Jason Hobbs
"As you walk and eat and travel, be where you are. Otherwise you will miss most of your life."
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Old 05-03-2001, 04:49 PM   #27
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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The chances of winning a 6 number lottery... roughly 14000000 to 1. Therefore, according to Aikidosteve's argument... 260,000000 people in the US... only less than 20 people are killed by guns each lottery, 1400 a year... I don't think so! Jim23 doesn't have baggage, he's a non-sikidoka who points out flaws in what we (we?) say. More power to him and people like him. Totally in tune with the times I say (damn his soul...)

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Old 05-03-2001, 04:51 PM   #28
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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Damn it, with qualifications in typing... you'd think I would be able to put aikidoka...

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Old 05-03-2001, 05:10 PM   #29
Jim23
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Hey Mark,

You said damn -- twice. Anyway, thanks for the nice words you ex-judoka type of person. I may say non-sensical things from time to time, but I'm no non-aikidoka.

If I don't respond to your reply, it's because I'm heading out for a while. Can't keep the wife waiting -- she can be dangerous. She works out everyday (sometimes twice a day).

Jim23

PS: you can edit your posts ya'know.

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 05-03-2001, 05:22 PM   #30
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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No... I don't know how to edit my posts... Halliday, .... enjoy your time out... wives are a double edged sword...
As for saying you're not kidoka... heh heh...
man, You just don't sound like one, dammit. (This shows my limitations, and absolutely nothing else... ). All wives are dangerous, coming honey...

Last edited by mj : 05-04-2001 at 12:20 PM.

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Old 05-04-2001, 04:32 AM   #31
Matt Banks
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hi

Quote:
Originally posted by ian
P.S. some aikido techniques are great for disarming, but can put the position of the gun close to your ear. This will obviously give you long term hearing damage if it is discharged!

Ian
Hi,

Yep, its not easy to stop someone shooting you. Anyone who knows what their doing, wont let you in close enough to use a tecnique. So just use ki and bend the barrel of the gun. ha ha.

I read a book when o'sensei was asked this questiopn ''So what if someone decides to shoot you from a long distance''

His answer was something on the lines of

''There is quite a long time between someone having the incentive to shoot you, and them actutally doing it''

I feel this was a good answer. He wasnt talking about the time taken to pull the triger but when someone decide to find a gun and use it. Others may read it diffrently.

When Soke Maasaki Hatsumi was asked the same question he said ''ask for a divine intervention from god'' he was being humerous as ever, but I feel this also to be a good answer. Read it how you will.


Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 05-04-2001, 10:35 AM   #32
Anne
Dojo: Kiel University/VfL Fosite Helgoland
Location: Helgoland, Germany
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Ai symbol

Quote:
Originally posted by AikidoSteve


And I think a small price to pay to be able to live in the land of the free.

And we can't forget this famous quote "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -- Adolph Hitler, 1933

And then when Germany established gun confiscation in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Of course Aikido was still in its infancy then. In the US the chances of winning the Lottery are greater than having some bad guy point a gun at you. Don't believe the press 100% as they like to sensationalize the news.

And your Sensei is right - run and take cover.

Respectfully Yours in Aikihood from the USA

Just another time zone victim...

I didn't take anything personal but I would like to add some remarks (nothing personal, too)

- as PeterR pointed out already, life in countries with gun control isn't less free, especially not in Germany. Personally, I wouldn't want to define my freedom by the way a country handles its weapons issues.

- I just wanted TO AVOID another gun control discussion because we had that already on this forum (and I know it is a somewhat controversial issue in the USA) by stating that it is far more likely to be the victim of a robbery at gun point in the US which as far as I know is more of a statistical fact than sensational news.

-By the way: it is much easier to get a licence for owning a weapon in Germany than you may think. It's far easier than getting a driving license. I do a lot of sailing so I have a license for owning a Very pistol. It needs 30mm phosphorus ammunition designed to burn in heavy weather and even under water. If someone gets accidently shot with one of these he will die almost certainly. And the test to get it was just a joke.
So I know what I'm talking about.

-The way a country handles the control of weapons has a lot to do with tradition. E.g in Japan every shinken has to be registered with the police. Here, even sharp blades are sold as decoration objects without caring who buys them. So our traditions regarding this issue are just different. I think it's the same with the US and Europe.

-as far as the history of our countries goes, every nation on this earth has black spots on the race/religion chapter and we are all glad to have overcome these dark times.

I hope we got all the points clarified now and can go back to the original topic.
As I said I didn't take anything personal and I hope it's the same with all of you.

yours
Anne

P.S: Thank you, Jim23, for trying to help me.

"You have to do difficult things to grow." (Shoji Nishio Sensei)
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Old 05-04-2001, 10:30 PM   #33
Dajo251
Dojo: Aikido Downtown
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I think that the idea of gun control is a joke because if someone really wants a gun they will go out and get one weither legally or illegaly. on an other note it is easyer in the U.S. to get a drivers license than a gun but a car can be just as deadly if not more deadly than a gun( a little off topic but since i started this thread i figured i would add somthing)

Dan Hulley

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Old 05-05-2001, 09:22 AM   #34
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dajo251
I think that the idea of gun control is a joke

Well, it is when there's already millions of them around. When you don't actually have a large supply around, it's a pretty good way of keeping guns off the streets.
andrew
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Old 05-15-2001, 01:04 PM   #35
Ray Kissane
Dojo: Nihon Goshin Aikido
Location: Middletown NY
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23


Regardless of where you live, you might have a little trouble outrunning a bullet. Dodging them ... well, that's another story.

Regarding a knife attack, I was taught that the attacker to be extra careful with, was the person who attacks with the knife above his head (fist above the head). They're out for the kill, as opposed to just slashing you.

Jim23
In Nihon Goshin Aikido we pratice several hand gun and some long gun(rifles) defenses. I have taught these to police officers who have requested this type of training to assist in their job. I know that the FBI has a training program for their agents at the academy on hand gun defenses also.

The military and police practice shooting at 10-15 foot ranges for two reasons. The first is that is the environment that they will find themselves in where they may have to use their weapon will have a range between them and a suspect of about 10-15 feet. The second being when using a pistol, most people can not hit a target at over ten feet accuratley with out practice .

Based on this if a person where to get distance between themself and the attacker they have a better chance. Also the defender needs to present the smallest target possible so by turn their side towards the attacker they become harder to hit.

Also with a knife over the head this is an attack by someone with little or no training. A knife fighter will use slashing to create multiple wounds to send the body into shock quickly. When the body goes into shock it becomes very hard to defened. With a slash the knife will not become lodged in the body like with a stabbing motion. When a knife is used in a stabbing motion the body wound will close on the knife so that it becomes very hard to remove it. That is why military knifes have a blood groove in them.

My sensei Mr. MacEwen has several tapes out and he has one that is devoted to hand gun defenses. His web address is http://www.aikido-macewen.com/videos.htm if your interested in the tapes.

Kissane

Ray Kissane
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Old 05-15-2001, 02:57 PM   #36
aikilouis
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I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.
My personal position is : raise my hands, obey what I'm told, try to negotiate if possible, prepare to die if not (prayer, anyone ?).
I had an experience as an hostage in an armed robbery, and believe me, you don't want anybody to get nervous with brisk moves. That's why I'm quite interested with what REK (who previously presented himself as a crisis negotiator) has to say about such cases.
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Old 05-15-2001, 03:40 PM   #37
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.
....How about the other side of the coin here! I'd feel pretty bad if one of my students was confronted by a gunman and didn't have a clue what to do in this situation, ending up being shot or even worse killed!

...You folks probably all practice tantodori or tachidori without even batting an eye about the consequences of doing these techniques ...or should I say, muffing these techniques. (Yah, Yah, that's just 'dojo-stuff', your not learning these techniques to really use in the street, right!)

...The reality of this world is that the most likely weapon you're going to see stuck in your face is a gun! I want my students to at least have the ability to do something if they feel they have no choice. Not teaching them how to deal with a gun would be irresponsible on my part in my opinion.

...Hey, you don't have to do a thing if this happens to you, it's your choice ....that is if you know how to do something ...if not, you have no choice!

Last edited by Brian Vickery : 05-15-2001 at 03:42 PM.

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 05-15-2001, 04:09 PM   #38
KeithP
Dojo: Okinawa Aikikai
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Quote:
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.
What about if a student is injured in an unarmed situation? Or a situation involving a knife? I do not think that an instructor should be responsible for the decision a student makes outside of the dojo. Hopefully the instructor has given the student the physical and ethical tools to make a good decision, but the responsibility for the decision should rest upon the student who chose to study aikido, got into a dangerous situation, and then used the art to extricate him/herself.

Quote:
Originally posted by
That is why military knifes have a blood groove in them.
Perhaps I am incorrect on this, but if the terminology of swords applies to knives, the "blood groove" is more accurately called a fuller. They were not added to swords for the purposes of breaking the suction of a wound, but actually to decrease the weight of the weapon. I believe that the fuller also increased the rigidity of a blade in much the same way a piece of paper is easy to bend if there are no folds, but much more difficult to bend perpendicular to any existing folds.

Keith Penner
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Old 05-15-2001, 04:40 PM   #39
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ray Kissane
Also with a knife over the head this is an attack by someone with little or no training. A knife fighter will use slashing to create multiple wounds to send the body into shock quickly. When the body goes into shock it becomes very hard to defened. With a slash the knife will not become lodged in the body like with a stabbing motion.
I just wanted to add that I've always been taught that if you can see the knife the attacker probably doesn't know what they are doing with it, or, it's being used for threat purposes which hopefully means they don't intend to kill/cut you with it. This would imply that handing over your wallet is a good thing if the attacker is showing you the knife.

The other thing I was always taught is that if something does go down with the knife, you will get cut.

I would imagine the same rules apply, at least somewhat, with a gun. I don't know about anyone else but I don't have any illusions about disarming a knife.

Lastly, I do believe that Mr. Jim was having some fun with that knife above the head comment.

Last edited by Erik : 05-15-2001 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 05-15-2001, 05:06 PM   #40
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.
This is actually a good question well beyond dealing with guns.

We teach/learn techniques in the dojo that are supposed to be useful is self defense. Even if your goal in Aikido training is something else - the root of what we do is a series of highly efficient techniques designed to take out an aggressor.

A fine line is trod between instilling a level of self confidence and ensuring that the very same does not create a fool. You really must learn your limitations but it is the instructors responsibility to inject a dose of realism.

I am sure that one can use Aikido to deal with a gun, knife or name your weapon. I am not so sure that my Aikido can. I preach caution but if that doesn't work - well you can't tell me I didn't die trying.


Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-15-2001, 07:27 PM   #41
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik

Lastly, I do believe that Mr. Jim was having some fun with that knife above the head comment.
Mr Erik,

I certainly would think twice about taking on some psycho with a knife.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 05-16-2001, 06:53 AM   #42
REK
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Aikilouis (Joseph):

What would you like to know? You may email me directly if you wish, so that we do not monopolize this thread (ok, so I don't monopolize this thread..!)

Rob

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Mors certa, hora incerta
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Old 05-16-2001, 08:03 AM   #43
Ray Kissane
Dojo: Nihon Goshin Aikido
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Quote:
Originally posted by aikilouis
I'd like to ask the instructors reading if they'd take the responsibility to teach techniques specifically designed to disarm a gunman. What would be their reaction if one of their students was killed trying to do that.
I teach the hand gun disarming so that the students have the ablity to know what to do in a stituation where a gun is involved. I do not want someone to try and take a gun away from someone without any training.

I have seen to many news clips where a good samaritan has been killed because they tried to take a gun away from someone. If they would of had some training they would of had the knowledge for the given situation to determine if it would even be feasible to get to the gun hand.

I know people who have been in this situations where guns have been pulled. One was an instructor in our dojo. A gun was taken off of a gaurd by a mental patient. He had the knowledge of what to do and what impact his action would have on others. Based on that knowledge he choose not to do anything because of the other people in the area would be endangered. He new that the police would be able to apprehend this person quickly and that nobodies life was at stake.

In anouther instance a guy was car jacked. This person felt his life was endangered so he had to take action. He was able to drive away with his car and the gun.

I think we all need some training just so that we understand what our limitations are. In the bigger cities they may not only rob you but shoot you too, what would you do?


Ray Kissane
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Old 05-19-2001, 02:24 PM   #44
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
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Why wouldn't you.

Guns are an everyday thing and can present a real problem if you are forced to deal with one. Disarming techiques should be practiced as needed. Guns are around you all the time. I am even wearing one on my hip as I type this. (I'm a Policeman) When I was in the police academy we were taught afew simple disarming techiques and told "You will probably get shot doing something as silly as taking gun from somebody. If there is a 100% chance somebody is going to shoot you, why not do something that reduces the chance of you getting plugged to 75%" Virtually all Aikidoka have more hand to hand training than the vast majority of policeman. (Cops have the advantage of the occasional randori with unwilling Uke/ a humbling and enlightening experience) I went to a ground fighting school once and we spent three days wrestling around and striping guns from each other. The techiques are easy if you don't have to think them up on the spot.
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Old 05-20-2001, 12:31 AM   #45
Axiom
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Quote:
Originally posted by wildaikido
Matt that sounds like fun (well not if you get shot) I would make sure I was wearing my judo gi
I just wish bi-bi gun weren't illegal in Australia.
There are a number of alternatives, though none of their necessarily as realistic- you could make a wooden rubber band gun, or if you're allowed to buy one, you could get a potato gun(messy, but it'd work). The best thing would probably be a squirt gun, if you can get those. Though I have no idea what that'd do to the mat.

My thoughts,
Alex Magidow

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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
-- Gandhi
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Old 05-20-2001, 09:34 AM   #46
PeterR
 
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Kid's don't try this at home.

There is a story about Nariyama and some American sensei whose name escapes me. From a certain distance using a gun firing blanks the latter sensei could dodge the wadding. Nariyama tried several times and got pretty burnt for his failures. Not sure if he suceeded in the end.

It's a parlor trick that must be practiced to succeed.

It impressed Nariyama shihan.

A lot of pain was involved.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-25-2001, 09:55 PM   #47
Jimro
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Don't run from a sniper, you'll only die tired.

Now I believe that we can safely rule out long guns (rifles and carbines) from this discussion. Handguns; single shot, semi automatic, revolver, and double barrel, seem to be the weapon of choice for muggers, creeps, and all sorts of unsavory characters.

I truly believe that most martial artists will not be acosted by an attacker unkown to them. Muggers and rapists prey on those whose body language marks them as an easy target. Anyone walking with situational awareness, and confidence, is probably much safer than the guy studying his shoes.

Now as to an attacker who is known to you, only you can judge. Someone who knows you, knows that you're a martial artist, will already be bent on murder or have a mind so clouded with emotion or drugs that they can't be reasoned with effectively. What do you do?

I try to live my life so that people don't feel any need to erase my existence from this earth before old age takes me. But say you have a former lover/spouse/teacher/student/family member/or postal worker who wants to kill/maim/hurt/stab/or mess your day up something fierce? How well do you know this person? Will your mind be clear and calm? Will you try to avoid hurting them and yourself? How much do you value your life?

In my opinion train to disarm an attacker. But only attempt it when the attacker leaves no other alternative. If you are on the street and the attacker wants you to get in the car, DO NOT GET IN THE CAR!!! Remember this, every situation you walk away from alive is a win. If the pistol goes off by your ear and you suffer permanent hearing damage? Oh well, at least you are still alive.

So keep on training and pray (if you're into prayer) that you never have to use it. Best of luck to everyone. On a side note, didn't the Okinawans creat Karate because their Japanese conquerors didn't allow them swords? I wonder what martial art will be created when we are no longer allowed firearms?

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.
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Old 05-25-2001, 10:23 PM   #48
Dajo251
Dojo: Aikido Downtown
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The comment made about being a target for a mugging if you are walking the street with bad posture is very valid but i was robbed when I had good posture if you wish to read about it it under the post"aikido usage" in the general section.

Dan

Dan Hulley
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Old 05-25-2001, 10:38 PM   #49
Jimro
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Well there's an exception to every rule, including this one.

Truly sorry you were robbed, very glad you're still with us.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.
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Old 05-26-2001, 02:41 AM   #50
Jim ashby
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When we're not allowed firearms

In the UK private ownership of handguns is effectively banned. It's great, there are no more shootings and the murder rate is dropping through the floor. We all sit out in the evening watching the squadrons of flying pigs putting on aerobatic displays.
"when they outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them". True.
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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