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Old 06-09-2005, 07:30 AM   #26
Dazzler
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
To get back to my original question:

can we conclude that the only reasons aikido is based on sword movements are historical in nature?
In other words, the use of sword principles in aikido has no advantages when compared to other martial arts that were not influenced by sword arts?
I think that 2 questions...

Nope - can't agree that its there for a history lesson. If its not relevent to learning aikido NOW then theres no point doing it.

No advantages? Well lets look at one...Kamae...relationship between uke and Tori.

While it can be hard to get some students to grasp the concept of getting off-line from a punch or kick and instead block it...this is so much more readily grasped when the attack is with a bokken or jo.

So theres an immediate advantage.

I'm sure others can come up with many more.

Cheers

D
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Old 06-09-2005, 08:12 AM   #27
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
In other words, the use of sword principles in aikido has no advantages when compared to other martial arts that were not influenced by sword arts?
IMHO, if you truly begin to accept, understand, and apply the sword principles, Aikido has an advantage over other non-blade arts.

I am just now beginning to get a glimpse of this in Aikido.

I saw this in FMA training, where we begin with weapons. Then when we took the weapon out of our hands, the hands and movements where efficient and effective.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-09-2005, 09:29 AM   #28
Fred Little
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
To get back to my original question:

can we conclude that the only reasons aikido is based on sword movements are historical in nature?
In other words, the use of sword principles in aikido has no advantages when compared to other martial arts that were not influenced by sword arts?
To the extent that aikido is "based on sword principles" the system of movement has the implicit premise that in addition to a sword, both parties may have shorter edged weapons available. With regard to both weapon retention and what constitutes "appropriate" ma-ai, this has significant implications that go well beyond the simple mechanics of applying any particular technique.

If an encounter does not involve edged weapons or cudgels, maybe "the use of sword principles has no advantage."

Conversely, if you were to add straight razors to Ultimate Fighting competition, a great many close quarter grapplers would have to re-evaluate their technical repetoire from the ground up.

Outside practice, I've never had anybody attempt to close the range on me when there was a visible blade in my hand, though I have had people close on me when I appeared to be unarmed.
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:50 AM   #29
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Now that brings up a good question to my mind. I am told that I am do crate that feeling as if I have a sword "the mind-blade of aikido if you will". Here's the problem. I can do it from my perspective, in that I can hold myself in the same way I do when holding a sword, and make movement, rhythm adjustments, to allow myself to move in much the same way as if I had a sword. I cannot maintain that against a kamikazi who challenges how sharp my mind-blade is, and I wonder if anyone really can. What do you think?

Rob
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Old 06-09-2005, 03:05 PM   #30
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Sword practice is closely related to empty hands practice. Aikido is really based on sword work.

If one observes carefully of evolution Founder techniques, we may see that at the end of his life his techniques becomes more and more simple, direct, on straight lines. Particularly in jyu waza. One opponent one atemi. Sunadomari sensei showed that also concept during Friendship demo. He expressed that way a concept how you cut with sword.

Entering in the attack and cut -- no counter possible.
Clean cut --that is how one must do any aikido technique -- one movement, no hesitation possible.
You redirect any attack in the first moment of contact --- just like cut down or cut up, or horizontal cut.
You throw somebody -- the same internal feeling -- clean, sharp, quiet cut through his center.
How you turn hips -- exactly as in sword work.

But even on very low technical level one may see that irimi and atemi come from basic cut shomenuchi with sword to the wrist or to the head (kiritsage and kiritske sp?) against shomenuchi attack.
Straight posture -- as in sword work, not like in wrestling.
Never turn back to your opponent ---- as in sword work, not like in sports.
Every gesture in aikido is like kokyu --- directly from sword work.
Economy of movement to extreme -- directly from sword work. In sword you can't do dancing movements.

There are many more, but one must study sword in deep many years to be able to see, or more exactly to feel and do all this with his body.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 06-10-2005, 06:56 AM   #31
mazmonsters
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Well said.
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:09 AM   #32
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Now that brings up a good question to my mind. I am told that I am do crate that feeling as if I have a sword "the mind-blade of aikido if you will". Here's the problem. I can do it from my perspective, in that I can hold myself in the same way I do when holding a sword, and make movement, rhythm adjustments, to allow myself to move in much the same way as if I had a sword. I cannot maintain that against a kamikazi who challenges how sharp my mind-blade is, and I wonder if anyone really can. What do you think?

Rob
Well, the kamikaze had better have *really good* ukemi....
See Szczepan's comments above....

Ignatius
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:13 AM   #33
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido and sword principles

That was a very good post. I'm specifically asking about this idea:
Quote:
Entering in the attack and cut -- no counter possible.
I like the theory too! I'm wondering if you have actually tested this particular idea out for yourself under any pressure? I'm sure there would be more than a few people willing to let you try that out on them while they get to kamikaze you to take you down. You see, if I'm actually holding a 30 inch razor and someone advances, I'm pretty sure I'll be okay. But, my arms are not all that "sharp" and my striking is okay, but it won't have the same physiological effect as the 30 inch steel razor either. I understand the idea of creating the same feeling with your mind, but to actually implement that idea is quite a non-trivial task if you ask me.
I'm always looking for insight on that one.

Rob
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:41 AM   #34
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
That was a very good post. I'm specifically asking about this idea:I like the theory too! I'm wondering if you have actually tested this particular idea out for yourself under any pressure? I'm sure there would be more than a few people willing to let you try that out on them while they get to kamikaze you to take you down. You see, if I'm actually holding a 30 inch razor and someone advances, I'm pretty sure I'll be okay. But, my arms are not all that "sharp" and my striking is okay, but it won't have the same physiological effect as the 30 inch steel razor either. I understand the idea of creating the same feeling with your mind, but to actually implement that idea is quite a non-trivial task if you ask me.
I'm always looking for insight on that one.

Rob
Hi Rob,

I read somewhere a quote from a karateka that goes something like this: "hands like swords". However, it would be more accurate to say "cut with the body", since the act of cutting with a sword is done with the entire body behind the sword - the hands merely guide the cut.

In a word, practice. I've had it done to me before, by Takeda Sensei. All I can say is "WOW. What an amazing feeling!"

I have been able to replicate it occasionally - it depends on how good uke is. Not many are interested in being good uke though...

Under pressure? To be quite honest, I've haven't been under pressure for a long time... if you have some really good ukes prepared to kamikaze me, I'd be happy to give it a shot.

It's a bit hard to do this to the little kiddies with proper kokyu extension, even if they have no qualms about kamikazying me given half the chance!

Ignatius
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:51 AM   #35
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Ignatius,

I have absolutely no doubt that Takeda sensei's ikkyo and iriminage work; I've been fortunate enough to experience them for myself. However, there seems to be *just a bit* of a gap between his abilities and my own!

Hey, I think it *should work* if they are bad ukes with thick skulls in a steroid rage because they just lost a UFC or PRIDE title match for breaking the rules due to dismembering their partner who was trying to give up. Enter in the attack of that guy and cut - and show me there are no counters possible. I'm not sure it can be done by many people with me attacking - of course I feel that way _everytime_ I attack Gleason sensei and well, I guess I'm just thick... (but there is a *bit* of a gap between our relative abilities there as well!)

Rob
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Old 06-10-2005, 08:02 AM   #36
mazmonsters
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Hi Rob,
I understand what you are getting at here, and the big factor is the strength of your kokyu...you have to cut with your mind and body as one, past uke, 30 miles down the road, right through his very core being...and when you can understand that principle (not just knowing it in your head, but knowing it as you know how to breath) then your arms now become swords.
-Matt
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Old 06-10-2005, 08:04 AM   #37
eyrie
 
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Ignatius,

I have absolutely no doubt that Takeda sensei's ikkyo and iriminage work; I've been fortunate enough to experience them for myself. However, there seems to be *just a bit* of a gap between his abilities and my own!

Hey, I think it *should work* if they are bad ukes with thick skulls in a steroid rage because they just lost a UFC or PRIDE title match for breaking the rules due to dismembering their partner who was trying to give up. Enter in the attack of that guy and cut - and show me there are no counters possible. I'm not sure it can be done by many people with me attacking - of course I feel that way _everytime_ I attack Gleason sensei and well, I guess I'm just thick... (but there is a *bit* of a gap between our relative abilities there as well!)

Rob
Yeah, yeah, you and I both
As Musashi wrote.... just cut....the moment you think "UFC.....steroids... oh, schiess!" is probably not a good time....
Sensei probably know he can do this with you coz your ukemi is good (I'm assuming). I have not seen Sensei try this on someone who he does not know can take the ukemi.... so, if you're ever down here, or I up there, we should get together and experiment.

Ignatius
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Old 06-10-2005, 08:11 AM   #38
mazmonsters
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Re: aikido and sword principles

I actually had the painful pleasure of learning my ukemi by taking that type of technique. It taught me how to fall very well, very fast. The first time it happened, i almost blacked out...I saw lots of stars, had a headache for 3 days, blurred vision, bloody nose, the whole bit...but I learned how to be non-resistant by taking that ukemi, over and over again.
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Old 06-10-2005, 08:59 AM   #39
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Agreed! I want to meet everyone on these forums eventually. I know I wont have any trouble convincing my wife to go to Austrailia. Internet and Airplanes make the world a (better) smaller place! I suppose it all depends on my financial situation, but I'd love to come visit. I'd also like to experience anyone whose arms are like swords (that allows visitors)!

I can do the mental imagery of 30 miles out, and I can actually "inflate" well enough to be pretty soft and powerful in my waza more so than the majority of the people I typically meet at seminars. However, I suppose I'm on the low end of this ability in that I have no faith that my cut would work against the level of martial arts I am interested in eventually playing with.

The funny thing is that I was walking to my car this morning and I was specifically thinking about how my ukemi needs to dramatically change. I am fairly stong and flexible, and can take pretty much endless ukemi from my center and maintain pretty good connection with my partner, and pretty much train at whatever level of intensity they want and all that. But, I realize that I don't hold myself in ukemi the way I do for any of my kokyu nage - well pretty much any of my nage waza anymore. I think I made a jump on the nage side that my ukemi hasn't caught up to yet. Regardless, I think I need to swing my sword a lot more, and really check my feeling there as well. Back to the main topic here, I think that might be one of the best reasons to keep sword work in aikido - if someone is capable of getting certain feelings into your body by that means, you should do it - and then you can have a whole other avenue for checking your feeling out for yourself.

Rob
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Old 06-10-2005, 02:01 PM   #40
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I understand the idea of creating the same feeling with your mind, but to actually implement that idea is quite a non-trivial task if you ask me.
I'm always looking for insight on that one.

Rob
You see, sword work make you learn "real" aikido basic. Irimi and Atemi. Not tenkaning around, going back under pressure, staying shy, hesitate to apply a technique.......no, all this garbage you simply don't do anymore.
Your aikido techniques become ONE step forward. That's it.

To apply such theory in practice I ask EVERY uke to attack me with all power, every time. It doesn't mean suicide, overextended attack, contrary, well balanced, strong, difficult attack. These ppl has KK, Kung Fu, TKD and other MA background, but we still manage to stay in realm of aikido. They have no mercy for me even when I instruct a class. It is very difficult practice for me at any level.

I'm not living in kind of UFC dream, we simply practice tons of weapons, and ppl start to understand and use they weapons rooted skills against me

Not very many like this kind of practice, it demands a lot of effort from uke as well.

To make no counter possible you must enter in special timing without any hesitation from certain angle right to attacker center to take his balance instantly. Sword exercises will teach you all about that. But you need a very good sword teacher. Sugano, Chiba and Kanai sensei from USAF created such systems that allow you to learn very advanced skills combining sword and empty hand techniques.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 06-10-2005, 02:40 PM   #41
rob_liberti
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Re: aikido and sword principles

That sounds really great, but I wonder if we are talking about the same thing now. I certainly do not have a UFC dream either, it's just that "no counter possible" means _to me_ that it must work there too.

I have heard and experienced the idea of "enter and cut" from one of Tamura sensei's people I met in Japan, and that was really great. Also, I have felt that Donovan sensei enter and cut in an unstoppable way when the attack was kata-tori. That was truly awesome and I have nothing but respect for him. Unfortunately, I haven't personally felt anyone from any of those systems do that in a free randori. Can you recommend anyone anywhere near Connecticut to visit who might be both willing and able to give such a lesson. (I think very highly of Ray Ferrinato sensei, his aikido, and his dojo for that matter, but I haven't experienced an enter and cut that I thought could not be countered in any way. Of course, I like to take ukemi, so maybe I didn't notice that the enter and cut techniques _couldn't_ be countered.)

Rob
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Old 06-10-2005, 08:01 PM   #42
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
That sounds really great, but I wonder if we are talking about the same thing now. I certainly do not have a UFC dream either, it's just that "no counter possible" means _to me_ that it must work there too.
I think it can work very well, however you need special practice to adapt this principle for this event.
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I have heard and experienced the idea of "enter and cut" from one of Tamura sensei's people I met in Japan, and that was really great. Also, I have felt that Donovan sensei enter and cut in an unstoppable way when the attack was kata-tori. That was truly awesome and I have nothing but respect for him. Unfortunately, I haven't personally felt anyone from any of those systems do that in a free randori. Can you recommend anyone anywhere near Connecticut to visit who might be both willing and able to give such a lesson. (I think very highly of Ray Ferrinato sensei, his aikido, and his dojo for that matter, but I haven't experienced an enter and cut that I thought could not be countered in any way. Of course, I like to take ukemi, so maybe I didn't notice that the enter and cut techniques _couldn't_ be countered.)

Rob
What you mean by "free randori" ? Aikikai jyu waza? Tomiki randori? Judo randori? other type of randori? Any rules applyed?

I can't speak for other ppl, me I approach this interesting problem in very progressive way in empty hand techniques.
1. Grabs by "light uke"
2. grabs by moderate "heavy uke"
3. single strike by "light uke"
4. single strike by moderate "heavy uke"
5. any attack* by "light uke"
6. any attack* by moderate "heavy uke"

* not repetitive striking, no counters

For the moment this 6 points seems to be a limit for safe practice and students still can learn something (about how to use their body to cut attacker down in one shot). Feints, counters and full power "heavy uke" is too much for now (we did it, but it's been non constructive practice yet), but it will come for sure.

But before even you go to point 2 students must work a lot with bokken to understand how to enter physically against shomen, thrust or kesa single attack(weapon against weapon and empty hands against weapon). Without that they get stack against moderate "heavy uke". For some take 2-3 months for others 2-3 years to train their body to react automatically depends o lot of background.

There are special tachi dori exercises that must be trained before one can go further (feints, counters..) because in our aikido we don't have sparring.

In all my post I'm speaking only about time/space before contact and first moment of contact.

Nagababa

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Old 06-10-2005, 09:38 PM   #43
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Nagababa said:
You see, sword work make you learn "real" aikido basic. Irimi and Atemi. Not tenkaning around, going back under pressure, staying shy, hesitate to apply a technique.......no, all this garbage you simply don't do anymore.
Your aikido techniques become ONE step forward. That's it.
I like this idea. That is why irimi nage or sokumen iriminage when done properly has such beautiful effect. Also I have done in jiyu waza, just as uke is getting up, but his legs are not yet stable on the ground, you rush in and irimi-tsuki or irimi nage, the effect is just plain beautiful.
Quote:
Nagababa siad:
Entering in the attack and cut -- no counter possible.
Clean cut --that is how one must do any aikido technique -- one movement, no hesitation possible.
You redirect any attack in the first moment of contact --- just like cut down or cut up, or horizontal cut.
You throw somebody -- the same internal feeling -- clean, sharp, quiet cut through his center.
How you turn hips -- exactly as in sword work.
Nagababa, if you have watched video of G. Shioda, his atemi techniques are just brilliant. Is that the outcome when one apply the principle of sword to ones' aikido?

Boon.

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Old 06-11-2005, 04:55 PM   #44
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Re: aikido and sword principles

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
I like this idea. That is why irimi nage or sokumen iriminage when done properly has such beautiful effect. Also I have done in jiyu waza, just as uke is getting up, but his legs are not yet stable on the ground, you rush in and irimi-tsuki or irimi nage, the effect is just plain beautiful.
This is first step to have total control of uke in one to one jiyu waza. If you do it again and again, every time just before he stands up, you will learn a feeling of such control. Uke will collapse after 2-3 minutes, not only because of physical but mainly because of psychical pressure.
Then apply it to multiple attack.
Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Nagababa, if you have watched video of G. Shioda, his atemi techniques are just brilliant. Is that the outcome when one apply the principle of sword to ones' aikido?

Boon.
Every of his movements during multiple jiyu waza is like cutting with sword. Straight to the center. He is a real inspiration for me, in spite of the fact I'm not yoshinkai student.

Nagababa

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