Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-10-2005, 01:45 PM   #151
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
I said, "I hit your left nut, didn't I?" It felt like someone put a walnut or something in the palm of my hand and then removed it in a split second.
Was that his left, or your left? (I know it wasn't my left...)

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 01:51 PM   #152
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I mean seriously, If I had that experience I would never pick up a jo again.

That is the dark side of the force young jedi
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 02:43 PM   #153
Yo-Jimbo
Dojo: formerly Windward Aikido, formerly at Keewenaw Schools of Aikido (ASU)
Location: Formerly Hawaii Pacific University, formerly at Michigan Technological University
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 71
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Aikido attempts to force a person, whose goal is to hurt you, not to hurt you. It is forcing a person to do something against their will. Their will is to harm you. Your will is that they do not harm you. You try to force them to not harm you. You use Aikido as a means to accomplish this. Coercion.
You are partially correct. While aikido's main goal is to change the other's mind to peace and it avoids reliance on fear or counter force to accomplish this goal, coercion may be the only reasonable avenue at the time.

But your assertion the love is never manifested through coercion, is just plain wrong. Parents (good ones at least) coerce there children all the time when what the child wants is not (in their view) best for the child.

If someone tries to shoot me and I push the gun in a direction that doesn't point at anyone or I move out of the way, I'm not using coercion to defend myself. If I turn the gun on the attacker or if I move straight through the attacker, I would be using coercion. All of these are within the realm of "legal" aikido solutions. I can choose to use any of these tactics out of love or not. If I turn the gun toward the attacker, I change the attacker's mind on the prudence of pulling the trigger. If I shoot the attacker in the foot with it, perhaps I won't need to shoot for the head. Being able to choose the least coercive method (preparing ahead of time so that those options will be available) and doing so (acting on the most considerate option) is an act of love.

Coercion is just a tool that can be used for love, greed or any other motivation which it can further. Below you show an inability to separate the means from the end.
Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Stalin violently took over Russia. He then used his skills to stop future violent uprisings by killing anyone who might disagree with him (genocide). According to you, these violent murders of Stalin would have to be considered acts of love. Your position is absurd.
Aikido is coercion, not love.
Talk about absurd. Of course Stalin is using coercion and of course he is not acting out of love (other than love of himself). Mass murder and democratic reforms are both things that can help to avoid uprising (history has shown which is the wiser and more effective). Stalin wasn't following the principles of aikido when he made his choice. Indiscriminate genocide and the rule of law both are coercive. Aikido teaches to choose non-coercive over coercive whenever possible and the minimum level of coerciveness when it is unavoidable.

I disagree with you. I could try to change your mind by ignoring you, insulting you, discussing it with you or hitting you with a stick (by no means and exhaustive list).

Ignoring you is the least coercive, but this isn't enough by itself to justify it as the course of action. The course I choose should have the highest chance of success (low as it may be) combined with safety for me and a love for you and humanity. Ignoring you leaves you dangerously mired in ignorance that others could get pulled into by your flailings (which endangers them and I feel this would be irresponsible by me).

Insulting you is more coercive (unless your are masochistic). It could be effective at getting your attention, but causes many people to reflexively harden to their positions. Making someone feel bad without a reasonable chance of changing them for the better is not love or aikido.

Discussing this openly is only slightly coercive in that if you don't admit that you are wrong (where you are wrong), you must fear my future discourse. I can't guarantee that I will bother though. Just because I disarmed you, doesn't mean I'm going to take you home and feed you. I'm not a fountain of infinite love.

Finally, hitting you with a stick is illegal if you don't agree to it in a dojo setting and has obvious proximity limitations. While it has the highest chance of changing your mind in some way, it is not as likely as some tactics to change it for the better. Even in this realm, there is a difference between and instructional rap that teaches a martial or social lesson and a mean and anti-social crack the caves in the skull, but teaches only death (I am not in any way threatening actually violence of course). The aikido principle for this option is also clear.

This discussion reminded me of the following lyrics from "Whistling in the Dark" on Flood by They Might Be Giants:
---
A man came up to me and said
"I'd like to change your mind
By hitting it with a rock," he said,
"Though I am not unkind."
We laughed at his little joke
And then I happily walked away
And hit my head on the wall of the jail
Where the two of us live today.
---
So I choose the way that is motivated by concern for both myself and my fellow human beings. It might not be the most expedient or immediately satisfying, but in the long run it may create better people.

PS BTW, your site counter is logging a new hit for each area (even though there is nothing under any of them).

"One does not find wisdom in another's words." -James D. Chye
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 05:39 PM   #154
Tim Schmelter
Dojo: South Austin Aikido
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Matthew Materazzi wrote:
I accidentally hit this guy in the crotch, and I could literally feel what it was I hit at the end of the jo that was in my hand. I said, "I hit your left nut, didn't I?"
This is without a doubt the best mental image of ki I have ever been able to form. I will treasure it always.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 09:53 PM   #155
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Hi all,
Having spent one hour reading this excellent topic, I decided to open my new school of MA. Thank you Red Beetle for inspiration! As I have some informal training in few arts, my school will teach many future champions!

1. I'll teach judo not only without mystical bowing but also without any stinky jacket. Some traditional judo masters still use jackets, but we must be ready to defend ourselves naked too (shower, sauna…etc). With some special, secret jo techniques. To reinforce martial spirit, as a greeting students will kick each other in the face before and after each technique.

2. I'll teach also Bjj while driving a car. Gracie pedagogical approach is a prehistoric one, daily needs of our population forced me to complete reevaluation of this not very efficient system. Most ppl spend about 2-3 hours in their cars, and they must defend themselves in such environment. They know that 2+2 = 4 and not 5!!!! They don't need any instructor. They must be also armed, know how to use different weapons while in mounting position or in guard. My students will train not on the tatami but on the way to/from work in cars, without any instructor. They can use my new series of DVD (soon I'll offer special prices!!)

3. I'll teach also one hand wrestling in suit. Almost everybody is using suits in office work. 99% of time they use one hand to handle cell phone or notebook. Classic wrestling is completely out of date in present civilization. Student from my school will train everywhere, on the streets, in the office, in the lift, on the roofs, even in McDonalds! It would be particularly useful for police officers and house-wifes. While fighting, officers could check with other hand on their computer a data about criminal, and during shopping fighting the woman can sign up paying with credit card.

I'm wondering about a name of my new school……..Second Step Forward Killers Team?

any ideas?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 09:54 PM   #156
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
They did not come from the "flow of ki".
Well, let's try and back up to your point about O Sensei creating his own system.

On the one hand, Dan Inosanto is the headmaster of LaCoste Inosanto Kali; he created his own system. Yet at the end of a Panantukan tape I have, Panantukan being part of Kali, he lists his teachers and says, "These are not my teachniques, these are their techniques." Guro Andy, of course, is studying Guro Dan's system, and doesn't want to do anything differently unless he sees what Guro Dan's doing right now. And yes, Guro Dan does change things.

In the year plus since Andy set up his own academy, he's been drumming the values of respect and the need to pass on what you have learned. Yet there is the other side of thing where masters found their own systems.

So when we come back to Aikido, yes, O Sensei founded his own art, which he distinguished from what he'd studied (which was a heluva lot). But I'm, if I'm generous about it, maybe where O Sensei was when he was learning jujitsu: I'm a student of that art, and my job as I see it is to absorb what is being presented to me. And if the spiritual side of it is where Aikido goes to town, then I wouldn't be doing my job if I neglected it.

Quote:
I don't know their reason for it, but they could learn just as easily in their own language .....
But they don't, and I told you why: It's not just about learning a skill, but maintaning and retransmitting part of a culture. If you throw that out, you lose something. That's another point Guro Andy has been making, and he can pit out Canotnese names for all the blacks, strikes, and so forth. We do Chinese, Japanese and Filipino arts without thinking about that side of it, but that's what we're doing.

Quote:
If you continue to ignore a large portion of my posts we aren't going to get anywhere.
Endlessly repeating ourselves won't get us anywhere either -- unless you like going in circles.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 09:58 PM   #157
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Hi all,
Having spent one hour reading this excellent topic, I decided to open my new school of MA. Thank you Red Beetle for inspiration! As I have some informal training in few arts, my school will teach many future champions!

1. I'll teach judo not only without mystical bowing but also without any stinky jacket. Some traditional judo masters still use jackets, but we must be ready to defend ourselves naked too (shower, sauna…etc). With some special, secret jo techniques. To reinforce martial spirit, as a greeting students will kick each other in the face before and after each technique.

2. I'll teach also Bjj while driving a car. Gracie pedagogical approach is a prehistoric one, daily needs of our population forced me to complete reevaluation of this not very efficient system. Most ppl spend about 2-3 hours in their cars, and they must defend themselves in such environment. They know that 2+2 = 4 and not 5!!!! They don't need any instructor. They must be also armed, know how to use different weapons while in mounting position or in guard. My students will train not on the tatami but on the way to/from work in cars, without any instructor. They can use my new series of DVD (soon I'll offer special prices!!)

3. I'll teach also one hand wrestling in suit. Almost everybody is using suits in office work. 99% of time they use one hand to handle cell phone or notebook. Classic wrestling is completely out of date in present civilization. Student from my school will train everywhere, on the streets, in the office, in the lift, on the roofs, even in McDonalds! It would be particularly useful for police officers and house-wifes. While fighting, officers could check with other hand on their computer a data about criminal, and during shopping fighting the woman can sign up paying with credit card.
But where's the defense against someone attacking you with a banana!? How cna you neglect it? That's justifiable lethal force that is! You have to have youor students fend off attackers with bananas in their cars going the wrong way on the freeway at 95 mph in a hail storm on the fourth of july headlong into a heard of elephants and a baby zebra without an instructor. THEN your curriculum will be complete.

Quote:
I'm wondering about a name of my new school……..Second Step Forward Killers Team?

any ideas?
Team America World Police?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:08 PM   #158
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Phillip Kirkan]
Quote:
So it's okay for Ueshiba to disregard tradition, but not us lowly mortals?
Good point. Tradition is mostly for those uncreative persons who have to be told what to do. They are only comfortable when someone is ruling them. Those who advocate tradition usually despise individualism, and freedom!

Quote:
Using the term "sticky hands" instead of "chi sao" or "horse stance" instead of "ma bow" doesn't change anything. There is no reason a martial art has to be learned in its original language.


Quote:
If someone in Japan, China, Korea, or wherever wanted to learn Western wrestling, would they have to use the terms "stance", "level change", "penetration step", "hip heist", etc.? No. They can call it whatever they want as long as it's done the same...
Somebody is seeing through the mystical fog.



Quote:
A collection of techniques and principles can't be spiritual. It just has a bunch of spiritual baggage attached to it.

Absolutely correct! And we can put the baggage down without losing the technique.

Red Beetle
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:11 PM   #159
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Michael Gallagher]But where's the defense against someone attacking you with a banana!?

Try using your Ki.
It has to be good for something. It certainly isn't good for anything else.

Red Beetle
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:14 PM   #160
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Absolutely correct! And we can put the baggage down without losing the technique.
But the five thousand dollar question is: can you logically (you seems to like logic although you make very poor use of it) prove that studding spirituality/mysticism/tradition along with technique actually degrades the effectiveness of the techniques?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:15 PM   #161
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Well, let's try and back up to your point about O Sensei creating his own system.
Not sure what you're getting at here.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
I'm a student of that art, and my job as I see it is to absorb what is being presented to me.
You may see your training as a 'job', but others don't. People train for many reasons.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
But they don't, and I told you why: It's not just about learning a skill, but maintaning and retransmitting part of a culture.
It seems to me you want to preserve an art, rather than a system of self defense. Ueshiba wasn't concerned with preserving a piece of culture; he changed what he didn't like about the 'arts' he studied without hesitating.

Honestly, what does keeping aikido in it's original form serve? You aren't truly preserving a piece of culture. One man does not constitute a culture. You are preserving the beliefs of one man.

Doesn't that sound a little like a religion?

Last edited by Pankration90 : 06-10-2005 at 10:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:18 PM   #162
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Michael Gallagher]

Quote:
But they don't, and I told you why: It's not just about learning a skill, but maintaning and retransmitting part of a culture. If you throw that out, you lose something.
Absurd. You lose nothing by changing the name of a technique. You need to stop assuming your position (begging the question), and demonstrate what would be lost by changing the name of a technique. If I change the name of iriminage to "the head-hunter", then how exactly would that affect the technique? Who cares if the "culture" is lost. Japanese culture is small compared to western civilization.



Quote:
Endlessly repeating ourselves won't get us anywhere either -- unless you like going in circles.
You like going in circles. That is why you continuosly assume what you should prove.

Red Beetle
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:27 PM   #163
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Japanese culture is small compared to western civilization.
What standard are you using to quantify culture as "small" or "large"? If Japanese culture is indeed "small" does that mean that it has no value?

You are also comparing culture to civilization. Apples and oranges.

Last edited by Keith_k : 06-10-2005 at 10:38 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:37 PM   #164
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Just a quick point- we aren't talking about preserving Japanese culture. We're talking about the beliefs of one man from nearly 40 years ago. Even if his beliefs represented Japanese culture at that time (which I doubt), the people who's culture we are talking about have already moved on...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:39 PM   #165
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
But the five thousand dollar question is: can you logically (you seems to like logic although you make very poor use of it) prove that studding spirituality/mysticism/tradition along with technique actually degrades the effectiveness of the techniques?
I do not have to prove that mysticism is useless.
I don't sell mysticism, but only technique.
Those trying to get someone to accept mysticism as part of Aikido must prove that mysticism is useful.


Mysticism is defined to mean that which is irrational, unsystematic, and based upon personal experience.
Technique is defined to mean that which is systemic, logical, understandable, and capable of being taught. It is propositional.

By definition mysticism has nothing to add to technique. Sensual experience has no inherent meaning, but must have meaning imputed to it by those who hold to mysticism. And, the imputed meaning itself must be propositional, and not mystical. That very fact alone contradicts the nature of mysticism. A better name for mysticism would be: "that which we know not what."
Here is the basic syllogism anyone who prefers logical systemic technique over irrational mysticism may use:

1) Anything which cannot be demonstrated to improve upon technique is something which should be disregarded

2) Mysticism is something which cannot be demonstrated to improve upon technique
_____________________________________________________

3) Therefore, Mysticism is something which should be disregarded


Red Beetle
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:42 PM   #166
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Just a quick point- we aren't talking about preserving Japanese culture. We're talking about the beliefs of one man from nearly 40 years ago. Even if his beliefs represented Japanese culture at that time (which I doubt), the people who's culture we are talking about have already moved on...
I agree.

Red Beetle
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:44 PM   #167
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
What standard are you using to quantify culture as "small" or "large"? If Japanese culture is indeed "small" does that mean that it has no value?

You are also comparing culture to civilization. Apples and oranges.
Scripture Alone
Specifically, the 66 books of the Protestant Bible

Red Beetle
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:51 PM   #168
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I do not have to prove that mysticism is useless.
But you do. Perhaps you should take a refresher course on critical thinking. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You make the claim: "Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward," implying that Aikido with mystic is a step backward from Aikido without mysticism. If you wish to be logical, you must back up your claim.

Quote:
Those trying to get someone to accept mysticism as part of Aikido must prove that mysticism is useful.
Why must they here? If they fail to do so, their students will leave. If you do not like mysticism in martial arts, vote with your wallet and take you business else ware. The usefulness of the mysticism is irrelevant to the student who WANTS a mystical martial arts experience.

However, if you wish to discuss mysticism in Aikido, you must prove that it is not useful and/or desirable, or concede that you are arguing from opinion and quit pretending that you are being logical.

Edited to correct spelling mistakes

Last edited by Keith_k : 06-10-2005 at 10:54 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 10:52 PM   #169
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Scripture Alone
Specifically, the 66 books of the Protestant Bible

Red Beetle
I am atheist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 11:00 PM   #170
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
I am atheist.
Do you think aikido is spiritual?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 11:05 PM   #171
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Do you think aikido is spiritual?
I don't practice Aikido. I don't think I have enough information to say one way or the other.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 11:07 PM   #172
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I just thought I'd ask. I think it's odd for someone who claims he doesn't believe in spirits to talk about spirituality.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 11:11 PM   #173
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
Location: California
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
I just thought I'd ask. I think it's odd for someone who claims he doesn't believe in spirits to talk about spirituality.
Part of it is that I like to argue

I personally think this Red Beetle character is a bit of an arrogant ass and I like knocking these people down a peg or two.

Also, I am not defending spirituality for its own sake, but simply saying that it should not be dismiss out of hand. There are people who like spirituality in their martial arts and I do not think these people should be labeled as "wrong."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2005, 11:30 PM   #174
sutemaker17
 
sutemaker17's Avatar
Dojo: Mokurin Dojo
Location: Louisiana
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 34
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Monty,
I am new to the aikiweb.
As a matter of fact this is the first thread I have replied to. Here's my take. Ki is your relationship to the earth. Period. You have timing, distance, connection, relative speed, shiesei, kime, kan-ken, isshin and yoyu to deal with. These are all common english concepts: posture, descisiveness, trusting intuition, commitment and proper margin in your movement.

Your original post was about mysticism right? I see no mysticism in Aikibudo. If you can cause a man to pray for a third leg you have applied an effective Aikido technique.

Some people will try to influence you into believing that they have the end all be all on Aiki understanding and Ki is the answer to why your technique is lacking. BS you keep training and your questions will be answered. You are on the right track.

My teachers taught me to be questioning, respectful but questioning.

Jason Mokry
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2005, 12:27 AM   #175
Pankration90
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

In "Total Aikido" by Gozo Shioda 'ki' is explained as a mastery of balance or something like that. I've also heard tai chi guys explain "chi" as proper body mechanics.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is an independent dojo? David Yap General 64 11-14-2011 02:05 PM
Steven Seagal Interview ad_adrian General 45 01-15-2010 03:34 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 09:50 PM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:18 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate