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Old 06-09-2005, 10:53 PM   #126
JamesDavid
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

The rest of the sentence went something like "only within the paradigm of inquiry" Do try to get to the end of the sentence then it might make sense to you. by the way I have studied philosophy, formally. Which is good as it meant that I got a balanced view…i am not about to engage in a debate with you about the issues you raised, it would be an endless discussion. But I will note how sure you are of the irrefutability of you points, the irony, what would you call it, oh yes, self-referentially absurd LOL…
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:23 PM   #127
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Red Beetle,

What qualifications do I need to recognize a BS artist, or someone who knows very little about aikido? From your website it appears you have Shodan in something related to Judo/jiujitsu. I have been doing BJJ for about a year now. I certainly would not pretend to go on a BJJ site and spout off what was messed up about it, and not be prepared to back it up with actual facts and proof, which for BJJ would probably be winning several major events and defeating reputable opponents.

I put very little stock in rank to be quite honest, so I don't really care about lineage and all that, but I do think it is relevant when you elude to experience and a claim that you can teach aikido. Especially since aikido is a non-competitive, internal art that is hard to measure success through external means such as tournaments etc. You'd probably be hard pressed to have any aikido students.

From viewing your website, my impression is that you are looking at aikido from a grappling, jiujustsu standpoint. I can certainly see as an outsider to aikido looking at it from that paradigm that you would form some of your criticisms. Some of us have the same and therefore, we crosstrain in other arts.

No one I believe on this thread has said aikido is the end all of all martial arts.

But I believe the argument is...if you take out the spiritual and internal aspects of the art...then you no longer have aikido, you would have something else...maybe along the lines of what you practice...so I guess we are back to where we started from...

You are qualified to teach what you teach. You remove that which you don't like from aikido, you are doing what you are doing and teaching....therefore, you are qualified to teach aikido.

How is that for philosophy?

I don't buy the fact that it would be aikido...but certainly I could see how you might see that on a very primitive level.
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:48 PM   #128
Pankration90
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
And even then the "aiki" concept is also there. But he also said that (paraphrasing here) that whereas he'd learned many systems, Aikido techniques came out of the flow of ki.
According to what I've read about daito ryu aikijujitsu, many of the aikido techniques were already around long before aikido.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
His prerogative.
So it's okay for Ueshiba to disregard tradition, but not us lowly mortals?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
It just does -- it's part of the package. Yeah, you could just do the technique, but that's not the whole package. As I've said, that's why Jun Fan people -- including my Kali instructor, who is also a Jun Fan instructor -- use cantonese terminology, instead of translating it all into English. Dan Inosanto himself has made a point of the cultural aspects. Feel free to go to his web site, http://www.inosanto.com, and e-mail him and let him know how wrong-headed he is about that. Go right ahead.
Using the term "sticky hands" instead of "chi sao" or "horse stance" instead of "ma bow" doesn't change anything. There is no reason a martial art has to be learned in its original language.

If someone in Japan, China, Korea, or wherever wanted to learn Western wrestling, would they have to use the terms "stance", "level change", "penetration step", "hip heist", etc.? No. They can call it whatever they want as long as it's done the same...

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
It is "no," and, as a matter of fact, my Kali instructor is a devout Christian.
If you don't feel the need to follow your Kali instructor's religious beliefs when he is teaching you directly, why follow the beliefs of a man that you never met?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
In the case of Aikido, it is the most spiritual martial art. Not "religous;" religion and spirtuality are slightly different. If that is where O Sensei's priorities are, and you want to do your job of passing down what has been passed to you, then you have to pay attention to it. I don't see how you can handle it any other way.
A collection of techniques and principles can't be spiritual. It just has a bunch of spiritual baggage attached to it.

Here's a hypothetical scenario for you. Let's say Ueshiba had two students that weren't from Japan. He taught them both the same things over the same amount of time. The only difference was that he taught one using Japanese terms, clothing, spirituality, traditions, etc. and he taught the other one with a Western approach. If they were in the same room demonstrating the same techniques, do you think you would be able to tell which one was "spiritual" and which one wasn't?

Last edited by Pankration90 : 06-09-2005 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:04 AM   #129
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
According to what I've read about daito ryu aikijujitsu, many of the aikido techniques were already around long before aikido.
Yes, and are found in other non-Japanese arts, too. John Stevens said as much in one of his books; my Aikido sensei has made reference to that to. There are versiond of the joint locks in Kali; I just see the Aikido versions more often because the breadth of Kali means it takes Guro Andy a long time to cycle back to whatever he covers on any given night. So this is not news to me. Point?

Quote:
So it's okay for Ueshiba to disregard tradition, but not us lowly mortals?
Not quite sure about this to be honest.

Quote:
Using the term "sticky hands" instead of "chi sao" doesn't change anything. Using the term "horse stance" instead of "ma bow" doesn't change anything. There is no practical purpose for learning a martial art in a foreign language.
If there wasn't a good reason for it, do you think Jun Fan/JKD people would use Cantonese terminology? They do. I know it for a fact.

Quote:
If someone in Japan, China, Korea, or wherever wanted to learn Western wrestling, would they have to use the terms "stance", "level change", "penetration step", "hip heist", etc.? No. They can call it whatever they want as long as it's done the same...
I don't know; how is Western wrestling taight in Japan, China, and Korea?

Quote:
If you don't feel the need to follow your Kali instructor's religious beliefs when he is teaching you directly, why follow the beliefs of a man that you never met?
Asked and answered in my previous post; I won't repeat myself, so you'll have to scroll up.

Quote:
A collection of techniques and principles can't be spiritual. It just has a bunch of spiritual baggage attached to it.
A lot of people -- starting with O Sensei -- seem to consider Aikido spirtual. So much for that.

Quote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario for you. Let's say Ueshiba had two students that weren't from Japan. He taught them both the same things over the same amount of time. The only difference was that he taught one using Japanese terms, clothing, spirituality, traditions, etc. and he taught the other one with a Western approach. If they were in the same room demonstrating the same techniques, do you think you would be able to tell which one was which?
Meaningless scenario -- there's no indication he'd use a "Western approach." Furthermore, the spiritual side of things appears to have been the most important to him. So he wouldn't drop it. So much for that.
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:33 AM   #130
Zato Ichi
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
My site refuses to let unqualified persons browse.
Really? And exactly what language do you use to do that? Surely it's not within the W3C standards, unless I'm getting behind on my reading. Perhaps an advanced Flash script? Java? JavaScript? Maybe its server side... PHP or ASP. Please tell me, as I'm dying to know.

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
Hmmm, all I get is the frontpage. None of the links seem to work for me.
Use Win IE. If you use a standards compliant browser (Firefox, Safari, etc) you'll get nothing. You're not really missing much though - typical tough guy wanna-be posing, mostly.
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:45 AM   #131
Pankration90
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Point?
They did not come from the "flow of ki".

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
If there wasn't a good reason for it, do you think Jun Fan/JKD people would use Cantonese terminology?
I don't know their reason for it, but they could learn just as easily in their own language. I understand "penetration step" better than "tou bu" (a rough pinyin translation).

If you continue to ignore a large portion of my posts we aren't going to get anywhere.

Here are some quotes for you to think about (from "The Essence of Aikido: Spiritual Teachings of Morihei Ueshiba" by Morihei Ueshiba, John Stevens)

Quote:
Aikido was revealed to Morihei as an all-embracing path, an eclectic system containing elements of esoteric Shinto, Tantric Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and even Christianity.
Quote:
Ueshiba wrote:
The Aikido I practice has room for each of the world's eight million gods and I cooperate with each one of them. The Great Spirit of Aiki enjoins all that is Divine and enlightened in every land. Unite yourself to the Divine, an dyou will be able to percieve gods wherever you are.
So much for not containing religious aspects, eh?
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:49 AM   #132
Bronson
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Monty Collier]
Quote:

I can teach Aikido if I want to.
Here is what one needs in order to be able to teach.
1) An understanding of the doctrine which is to be taught.
2) The ability to communicate this doctrine clearly.
And maybe some training in said art wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:59 AM   #133
maikerus
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
BTW, good comments Michael Stuempel
Thanks Kevin...sometimes its fun to bait a Troll

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:24 AM   #134
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Actually, Mr Collier has a point. If you take the "mysticism" out of aikido what are you left with? Can what's left still be called "aikido"? Can what's left be reasonable used as a step forward...to something else?

Mr Kirkan also has a point. You don't need to teach an Asian MA with all the associated Eastern esoterica. The art can be quite reasonably transmitted in another language and terminology, as evidenced by the host of Japanese teachers teaching aikido in the West.

There is absolutely no reason Mr Collier cannot teach aikido - at whatever level of knowledge and understanding he has of the art. Who here can profess that they know absolutely everything there is to know about aikido, much less everything there is to know about teaching (aikido)?

By all means, Mr Collier, we can only teach what we "know".

Ignatius
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Old 06-10-2005, 02:35 AM   #135
Ian Upstone
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

There is always going to be room for improvement, and as I presume we are all continually learning until we either give up or die, we should all keep trying to improve.

'Improvement' normally means adding things that work and discarding things that don't. On a personal level with our own training this makes sense, and we all do it naturally.

The problem with doing this to an entire art though, especially one as deep and complex as aikido, is that quite often in these attempts to improve the art or 'take a step forward' as it were - there may be some throwing out of the baby with the bathwater.

The flip side of that also, is that by sometimes adding what you think is 'missing' - you may be introducing something that contradicts other parts of the art - but don't see it at the time. Indeed, the problems caused by that addition may not surface until many years down the line, when it is way too late to recognise (let alone correct!) where the problem came from.

Personally speaking, I don't have either the intelligence or the experience of those that shaped the art, so I'd be very wary of changing what I don't understand - I'm quite happy improving what I know and trying to understand what I don't.

The best bet IMHO is to question everything, but not dismiss anything out of hand either.

Just some random thoughts. Back to lurkdom...
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Old 06-10-2005, 02:36 AM   #136
DaveO
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
There is absolutely no reason Mr Collier cannot teach aikido - at whatever level of knowledge and understanding he has of the art.
True - there's no reason I can't teach Kung-fu either.
Never taken it; never studied it and I know absolutely d***-all about it; but hey - I've seen every saturday morning kung-fu movie made; so I guess that makes me an expert!

EDIT:
While we're at it of course; I must point out that the Judo club uses the mats before we do - we often watch their class before setting up.
Maybe I should start teaching Judo too - it's just a few hip throws, innit?

Last edited by DaveO : 06-10-2005 at 02:41 AM.

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Old 06-10-2005, 02:50 AM   #137
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:

There is absolutely no reason Mr Collier cannot teach aikido - at whatever level of knowledge and understanding he has of the art. Who here can profess that they know absolutely everything there is to know about aikido, much less everything there is to know about teaching (aikido)?

By all means, Mr Collier, we can only teach what we "know".
By that argument, can I teach Kenjutsu? I know a little of aikiken. And I have watched the Seven Samurai movie and not forgetting Rurouni Kenshin. Does that make me an expert kenjutsu sensei?

Boon.

Last edited by xuzen : 06-10-2005 at 02:53 AM.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-10-2005, 05:37 AM   #138
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Yes, sounds like coercion.
Red Beetle
And bad aikido.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 06-10-2005, 05:50 AM   #139
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Yes Dave, Yes Boon... Read Ian's comments because he is saying exactly what I am saying. No, there is no reason at all. Heck I can even teach arnis or even BJJ... I have books, videos, attended a few seminars, and I implicitly understand everything there is to know about the art. Doesn't that make me a qualified instructor of XYZ (chop-suey-kung-fu-do)? Who's to say that I'm not?

Yes, in fact, Red Beetle should approach the World Soke Council and request, nay, demand that he be recognized as Soke of Red Beetle-Ryu aiki-jujitsu, because he is now qualified somehow to teach his style of aiki-something.

Ignatius
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Old 06-10-2005, 10:07 AM   #140
Nick P.
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

It's like standing next to a fire-hose gone mad; everything and everyone gets wet.....

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

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Old 06-10-2005, 10:20 AM   #141
Nick P.
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Yes, in fact, Red Beetle should approach the World Soke Council and request, nay, demand that he be recognized as Soke of Red Beetle-Ryu aiki-jujitsu, because he is now qualified somehow to teach his style of aiki-something.
You forgot to add he should demand he have all non-believers stripped of their ranks while they are at it.

And many years from now, the heathens have passed on....http://media.isnet.org/kristen/Ensik...averSynod.html

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Old 06-10-2005, 11:04 AM   #142
mazmonsters
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

If you are filled with arrogance because of an ego problem, you will never be able to understand the higher levels of Aikido. It is absolutely essencial to be "empty" during combat...if you are so focused on technique, your mind will shut down your body if that technique doesn't execute...the birth of something else takes place...and if you can't feel that, if your mind is so focused on what you are supposed to do, what techniques to do, etc..., then you will be overcome. The empty state of mind (mushin) is to react without thinking. This is what Aikido has taught me, and for someone to constantly speak of how ki is not important, non-existant, etc..then it is only because that person is ignorant to it, and has never experienced it for themselves. It is not some sort of magical force, it is a natural force of energy that unless felt, can never be understood. And unless you stop thinking, and empty your mind, you will never feel it...i remember one day in the dojo we were training with the jo. I accidentally hit this guy in the crotch, and I could literally feel what it was I hit at the end of the jo that was in my hand. I said, "I hit your left nut, didn't I?" It felt like someone put a walnut or something in the palm of my hand and then removed it in a split second. At that time in my life, I was very calm, happy, stress free, etc...then after a few months, some things that were happening caused me to be stressed out...and I couldn't feel the same things on the mat (or off the mat for that matter) as I did before. I was "empty" before, then as the stress hit, my mind became "clouded," and things changed. There is definately something real in Aikido, beyond waza...only those who want to experience it can. The highest level of Aikido is to take someone's sword without causing them injury..the lowest form is to be destructive and beligerant. Aikido was created as a means of reconciliation, not one of destruction...and this is why it takes so long to "master" it...if that is even possible.
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Old 06-10-2005, 11:16 AM   #143
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

It seems like the concepts of emptying your mind and focusing on Ki contradict eachother, I think you can empty you mind and have no belief in Ki whatsover.
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Old 06-10-2005, 11:30 AM   #144
mazmonsters
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

There is no "focusing onf Ki." Again, it is useless to argue about something that one hasn't ever felt. It would be like describing the feeling of weightlessness to me, because I have never been in space...or in one of those anti-gravity rooms. Or trying to tell someone the feeling of swimming under water, when the other person has not. Whether you call it "ki" or not, you can feel something similar to what it feels like when you try to put the same ends (positive or negative) of two magnets together..but you can really only feel that if you are not focused on trying to feel it, or thinking about anything. Here's a good excercise to experiment with: Hold a jo with a comfortable grip. Have someone grab the end of it and you try to get them into a technique, like shiho nage, with the jo. Tell them to resist at all times. You won't be able to get shiho nage...don't go fast or hard. You then have to start moving the jo around, feeling for the right angles...you'll start to feel the point of least resistance eventually, and in your own center, you can feel like you are channeling into a strong current of some sort, it feels like there is no strength involved...it's a different kind of strength being felt...that is a type of "ki." There's nothing mystical about it.
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Old 06-10-2005, 11:32 AM   #145
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

bah!
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:25 PM   #146
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
i remember one day in the dojo we were training with the jo. I accidentally hit this guy in the crotch, and I could literally feel what it was I hit at the end of the jo that was in my hand. I said, "I hit your left nut, didn't I?" It felt like someone put a walnut or something in the palm of my hand and then removed it in a split second.
LOL, I can't believe I did not read that before. I really don't know how to respond to that, it will haunt me for some time.
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:49 PM   #147
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

remind me to never practice the jo with you
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:13 PM   #148
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

This is getting too, too funny! I am laughing my ass off right now!
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:30 PM   #149
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I can absolutely swear that no one has ever felt my left nut through contact with a Jo. Absolutely. Never. The right one, but never the left one...

Ron (sorry, couldn't help it)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-10-2005, 01:39 PM   #150
Michael Neal
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Here's a good excercise to experiment with: Hold a jo with a comfortable grip. Have someone grab the end of it and you try to get them into a technique, like shiho nage, with the jo. Tell them to resist at all times. You won't be able to get shiho nage...don't go fast or hard. You then have to start moving the jo around, feeling for the right angles...
Trying to desperately recreate that experience of feeling a walnut in your hand are you?
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