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Old 06-09-2005, 02:08 AM   #101
Bronson
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I don't take Aikido, I can teach it. I choose not to at this time.
Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I don't have to have permission from any punk to teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, or Pentjak Silat. If I learn something, and I want to teach it, then have at it.
Can you teach it (aikido) because you want to or because you're qualified to?

Off topic:
Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
The teacher said to me, "But, Beetle...
Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Some traditional guys come to my school and they say, "Beetle, why don't you bow?"
Do these people really call you Beetle?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-09-2005, 02:20 AM   #102
batemanb
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I just find it annoying and a bit pretentious when people use Aikido or any other martial art as a way to promote their religion when a great deal of people are there to learn a martial art.
I find it odd that you think this with regards to Aikido, since a lot of what I have read about the art over the years clearly outlines that Aikido was devised by Ueshiba Morihei as a means of combining his martial arts with his religious beliefs. If it wasn't devised like that he may just as well have continued with Daito Ryu jujutsu and not bothered creating his own way.

Now I can't say that I have ever been in a dojo that ever talked about any of the religious aspects of the art. It's true that many people come to Aikido to learn a martial art, but if they looked into the history of it, they shouldn't be surprised or upset if someone does involve any of the religious/ spiritual aspects. If they then decide that it's not for them, or it goes against other beliefs they had, then by all means switch to something else. Don't come and moan about it

rgds
Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 06-09-2005, 02:26 AM   #103
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
WRONG
AIKIDO IS COERCION


RED BEETLE
Err, no it isn't.


Dictionary.com defines coercion as thus:

Main Entry: co·er·cion
Pronunciation: kO-'&r-zh&n, -sh&n
Function: noun
: the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will; also : the defense that one acted under coercion —see also DEFENSE, DURESS —compare UNDUE INFLUENCE


Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


coercion

n 1: the act of compelling by force of authority 2: using force to cause something; "though pressed into rugby under compulsion I began to enjoy the game"; "they didn`t have to use coercion" [syn: compulsion]


It all boils down to the individual doing it but if done correctly, it certainly ain't anything like coercion.

rgds

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 06-09-2005, 04:18 AM   #104
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

About coercion - I have met teachers who say things like "and here you take ukemi because otherwise I would hit you"... to me that fits the definition pretty well.

If that is good aikido though is the question.

We never have threads like this on aikido-l anymore... <wistful>


kvaak
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going for another bowl of popcorn
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Old 06-09-2005, 05:46 AM   #105
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Until RB can back up his words with documentation or proof, basically in my book he is a BS artist who is only interested in the attention he is receiving.

I personally have little tolerance for people that claim knowledge and competence in things they cannot backup. Especially when they join a group and post 39 post within the first 2 weeks of joining, form opinions, and arguments, but evade very direct and pertinent questions.

He has a long way to go before he wins any respect or recognition out of me. His opinions until he can back them up have no value to me.

I would not waste my time with responses until he proves to be constructive in nature.

BTW, good comments Michael Stuempel
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Old 06-09-2005, 06:15 AM   #106
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I agree, Kevin. Have you seen his website? Take that into consideration with this coment he made:
Quote:
...I don't have to have permission from any punk to teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, or Pentjak Silat. If I learn something, and I want to teach it, then have at it. This is the beauty of a free market. The U.S. Constitution is all the permission I need. I say this, because I know all to well about how some of these oriental socialists think. You don't need permission to teach martial arts.
If he can take the "mysticism" out of aiki and come up with his own thing, then all he's got is bunch of aiki-like techniques (omote-waza). But he ain't got aiki (ura-waza) and never will - certainly not with that attitude.

Ignatius
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Old 06-09-2005, 07:17 AM   #107
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
About coercion - I have met teachers who say things like "and here you take ukemi because otherwise I would hit you"... to me that fits the definition pretty well.

If that is good aikido though is the question.
I would say it is good aikido to take ukemi such that the nage cannot hit you! I don't think both side have to be training the best aikido at the same time all of the time. But, I do bother to explain that when I'm trying to teach, and I wish others would do the same.

Rob
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:07 PM   #108
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Have you seen his website?
No I haven't, what's the URL?

I did do a Google search though--result

Bronson

Last edited by Bronson : 06-09-2005 at 12:22 PM.

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:01 PM   #109
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Being a master of Judo does not mean you are a good, peaceful, and moral person. One of the best Judo players I know loves to hang out at strip joints, get drunk, start fights, whip the bouncers when they come to stop the fights, and is often having to be bailed out of jail the next day. He will then go teach his kid's class about how Judo gives the moral strength to do the right thing. He knows that such moral claims attracts more students, and more students mean more money, and more booze, strippers, .....

Red Beetle
It is certainly possible to frame things in terms of good and bad with no middle ground.

It is also possible to think in terms of "harm reduction" as a helpful approach.

Is it possible that if this individual hadn't channeled his efforts into Judo, at which you say he earns enough to cover his tab at the titty bar, he might be a gangbanger, a bullyboy, a loan shark's collector, or something much worse?

Nobody is perfect, but I can think of a number of folks I know who will freely say that martial arts practice may not have made them saints, but it kept them out of a lot of trouble, and kept them from making trouble for a lot of other folks.

That sounds like a win/win unless you're in the business of letting the most excellent be the enemy of the better.
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:13 PM   #110
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
No I haven't, what's the URL?

I did do a Google search though--result

Bronson
He posted his website at the end of his very first post: www.kingsportjudo.com
He is a troll in the classic sense. he is trolling for response. Simply an attention seeker who thinks he's a master of written argument because he took a critical thinking class.
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:28 PM   #111
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Hmmm, all I get is the frontpage. None of the links seem to work for me.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:36 PM   #112
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Look at the name of the art: Aikido. Whether or not ki exists, O Sensei certainly believed in it, and it's right there in the name of the art.
My guess is that the name came from the fact that much of aikido came from aikijujitsu.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Except that the martial artist who did that would be guilty of being grossly disrepectuful to the founder, and failing to to his job of preserving and passing on what was passed to him.
Ueshiba himself is guilty of not passing on what he learned; instead, he founded his own style.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Martial arts is not just about teaching someone a skill -- it is about passing on part of a culture.
If a martial art travels to different cultures, why does it have to take it's original culture with it? Aikido, judo, wing chun, etc. could all be learned in a "western" way. Western grappling techniques have a LOT in common with Asian ones, the culture an art is made in doesn't matter.

Here's a question for you. If your martial arts instructor was a devout Christian and you weren't, would you have to become a Christian just to learn from him? My guess is that you're answer would be "no." Why, then, would you have to start believing in whatever Ueshiba believed?

If aikido is to be seen as a martial art and not a religion, people need to start treating it that way. Why hold on to Japanese culture from 50 years ago when most people in Japan don't even do it? Why take on someone's spiritual beliefs just so you can learn the martial art he created?

Last edited by Pankration90 : 06-09-2005 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 06-09-2005, 06:15 PM   #113
Zato Ichi
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
Hmmm, all I get is the frontpage. None of the links seem to work for me.
Disable the CSS, Bronson. AFAIK that's the only way to see any of his content.

But here is the profile he has online to give you an idea: Red Beetle profile
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Old 06-09-2005, 08:22 PM   #114
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I believe that if spiritual/mystical concepts get in the way of hard training on the mat then the thread topic has some relevance. Certainly you don't get this sort of interference where I regularly train and I really can't recall anywhere else that occurred where I visited. If it did they probably would not get a second visit but in any case

As soon as someone starts to talk about all these mystically obsessed Aikidoka running around I have to wonder, based on my experience, what their experience of Aikido is. Yeah I know they exist but damm are they hard to find.

Another observation which has some relevance is the rejection of concepts that really aren't understood. The idea of Mu really isn't about lack of focus or an empty mind - rather it is the Buddhist concept of non-lingering mind. It may sound like a mystical term but in actual fact it has its equivalent in Western fighting arts and just describes a state of mind. The French call it sang froid or "cold blood" and reflects an emotional detachment to what comes next. Western and Eastern fighting arts both seek fluid responses to an infinite variation of attacks - they just use different ways of describing it - surely blood doesn't actually become colder.

Logic - as a hard core scientist I'm driven nuts by people describing their beliefs as fact and trying to use grade school logic in pretty imaginative ways to make their case. Doesn't impress - sorry.

Finally - you can teach Aikido-like techniques but to teach Aikido requires some history in Aikido. That is what lineage is all about - it is not enough to declare the value of your opinion by saying I can teach Aikido.

Last edited by PeterR : 06-09-2005 at 08:25 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-09-2005, 08:45 PM   #115
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
My guess is that the name came from the fact that much of aikido came from aikijujitsu.
And even then the "aiki" concept is also there. But he also said that (paraphrasing here) that whereas he'd learned many systems, Aikido techniques came out of the flow of ki.

Quote:
Ueshiba himself is guilty of not passing on what he learned; instead, he founded his own style.
His prerogative.

Quote:
If a martial art travels to different cultures, why does it have to take it's original culture with it?.....
It just does -- it's part of the package. Yeah, you could just do the technique, but that's not the whole package. As I've said, that's why Jun Fan people -- including my Kali instructor, who is also a Jun Fan instructor -- use cantonese terminology, instead of translating it all into English. Dan Inosanto himself has made a point of the cultural aspects. Feel free to go to his web site, http://www.inosanto.com, and e-mail him and let him know how wrong-headed he is about that. Go right ahead.

Quote:
Here's a question for you. If your martial arts instructor was a devout Christian and you weren't, would you have to become a Christian just to learn from him? My guess is that you're answer would be "no" ....
It is "no," and, as a matter of fact, my Kali instructor is a devout Christian. But he as also made a point of the cultural preservation aspects of Kali and Pentjak Silat Serak. These arts are definitely more "combative" than Aikido, especially Serak, yet he takes respect very seriously and emphaszies that you are getting part of a culture. You don't want to do that, fine, but that's been drummed into me for months now since he started his own class.

Maybe it's easy to get "spoiled" with things like karate, Kung Fu, and other systems that have been established for 40 or fifty years. But in the case of Serak, there are maybe at most a half dozen old men who have the whole system; maybe -- I'm guessing here -- a few thousand pracitioners world wide if that! I may be generous in my estimate. It was kept locked down, totally secret, by a member of the de Thouars family until ten years ago; Victor de Thouars had to break with his own family to take the art public, and the reason he did it was very simple: to keep it from vanishing.

Even with Kali, it's not as rare as Serak, but pretty rare. In both cases, Guro Andy has emphasized he is "passionate" about preserving these arts. That means recognizing not just the techniques but the cultures they came from. That's true of everything, really, but most people don't think of that. I didn't until Maha Guru Vicotr de Thouars pointed that out at a seminar last year.

Quote:
Why, then, would you have to start believing in whatever Ueshiba believed?
I'm not talking about believing what he believed; I'm talking about learning what has been passed to me so I can pass it to somebody else. That's how the art stays alive. That's how the arts you know have stayed alive, and really, they will only conitnue to exist as long as people learn them. Videos and NHB events won't do the job unless people actually go in to learn how to do it.

In the case of Aikido, it is the most spiritual martial art. Not "religous;" religion and spirtuality are slightly different. If that is where O Sensei's priorities are, and you want to do your job of passing down what has been passed to you, then you have to pay attention to it. I don't see how you can handle it any other way.

Quote:
If aikido is to be seen as a martial art and not a religion, people need to start treating it that way. Why hold on to Japanese culture from 50 years ago when most people in Japan don't even do it? Why take on someone's spiritual beliefs just so you can learn the martial art he created?
My sensei wrote a handout for new people in which he says Aikido is not an "intellectual process" but a training programmed leavened done in an atomosphere of "good will and sweat." In other words you don't read about O Sensie and think about what he said -- you go in and practice what he came up with which was informed by his beliefs. You'll get it whether you like it or not.

Last edited by CNYMike : 06-09-2005 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 06-09-2005, 08:58 PM   #116
JamesDavid
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

"as a hard core scientist I'm driven nuts by people describing their beliefs as fact"

Peter, as a scientist I can only agree. It is difficult for some people to understand the difference between subjective and objective thought, let alone the difference between ontology and epistemology. As scientists we realize that the empirical world imparts truth only within the paradigm of inquiry. Alas, many do not realize this….
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Old 06-09-2005, 09:55 PM   #117
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote]
Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
Can you teach it (aikido) because you want to or because you're qualified to?
I can teach Aikido if I want to.
Here is what one needs in order to be able to teach.
1) An understanding of the doctrine which is to be taught.
2) The ability to communicate this doctrine clearly.
Off topic:

Way back in 1995 I traveled to Charlotte, North Carolina to train with Helio Gracie. This was a technical seminar which was being held while Royce Gracie was about to fight in the 3rd UFC.

A delegation from Japan was present among many of those there to train. One Japanese person identified himself as a Master of Okinawan Karate, and a Rokudan in Kodokan Judo. He asked Helio Gracie, through his oldest son Rorion, just how he was qualified to change the old techniques, then to teach his Jiu-jitsu. Rorion smiled before relaying the message. Helio's expression was serious before and after the question came to him. He responded in Portuguese while looking the Japanese man in the eyes. When Rorion explained that they were not Japanese, and that they did not care about their traditions or having their permission, the Japanese fellow turned red with anger. Rorion then laughed right in the guy's face. I thought my friend and I were about to see UFC 3 a little early that day, but the Japanese guy didn't have the courage to act on his anger.

You can see a picture of this very seminar on my web-site under the "Instructor" button. Scroll down and you will see a picture of Helio Gracie, his son Roker Gracie, and of course ...




Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:03 PM   #118
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Err, no it isn't.


Dictionary.com defines coercion as thus:

Main Entry: co&middot;er&middot;cion
Pronunciation: kO-'&r-zh&n, -sh&n
Function: noun
: the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will; also : the defense that one acted under coercion —see also DEFENSE, DURESS —compare UNDUE INFLUENCE


Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, &copy; 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


coercion

n 1: the act of compelling by force of authority 2: using force to cause something; "though pressed into rugby under compulsion I began to enjoy the game"; "they didn`t have to use coercion" [syn: compulsion]


It all boils down to the individual doing it but if done correctly, it certainly ain't anything like coercion.

rgds

Bryan


Aikido, as I said, attempts to force an attacker to do something which is clearly against his will: not to hurt you.
This fits nicely under number 2 from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law. By the way Merriam-Webster hasn't had a good Dictionary out since the 19th century, but thanks for reinforcing my point.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:05 PM   #119
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
About coercion - I have met teachers who say things like "and here you take ukemi because otherwise I would hit you"... to me that fits the definition pretty well.

If that is good aikido though is the question.

We never have threads like this on aikido-l anymore... <wistful>


kvaak
Pauliina
going for another bowl of popcorn
Yes, sounds like coercion.
Red Beetle
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:09 PM   #120
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Until RB can back up his words with documentation or proof, basically in my book he is a BS artist who is only interested in the attention he is receiving.

I personally have little tolerance for people that claim knowledge and competence in things they cannot backup. Especially when they join a group and post 39 post within the first 2 weeks of joining, form opinions, and arguments, but evade very direct and pertinent questions.

He has a long way to go before he wins any respect or recognition out of me. His opinions until he can back them up have no value to me.

I would not waste my time with responses until he proves to be constructive in nature.

BTW, good comments Michael Stuempel
I don't know if you have the proper qualifications to make such conclusions about my posts.

How do we know you were not trained by some quack. Cause if you were, it would weaken your thoughts that I am full of it. And, unless you have outstanding credentials which I approve of, then you really don't have the right to tell others that they should not respond to me.

Sarcasm

It does have its place


Red Beetle
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:17 PM   #121
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Ignatius Teo]I agree, Kevin. Have you seen his website? Take that into consideration with this coment he made:



Your just jealous.
Red Beetle's web-site Rulz!

Anyway, your not qualified, or certified, to crack on my web-site.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:20 PM   #122
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
Hmmm, all I get is the frontpage. None of the links seem to work for me.

Bronson
My site refuses to let unqualified persons browse.
Sorry.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:28 PM   #123
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Logic - as a hard core scientist I'm driven nuts by people describing their beliefs as fact and trying to use grade school logic in pretty imaginative ways to make their case. Doesn't impress - sorry.
Well, I don't use the term fact in it's scientific sense. I believe in propositions, not scientific facts. Science in based on empiricism. More specifically, it is based upon the Verification Principal (maybe you've heard of this). The verification principal states that if something cannot be sensed, then it must be rejected. The verification principal itself is a proposition, which cannot be sensed (but it can be understood), therefore it must be rejected. Science itself is based upon a self-refuting principal. See Brand Blanshard.

As for your misology, you must use logic in order to attack it. Again, you are self-referentially absurd, as Alvin Plantinga would put it.

Quote:
Finally - you can teach Aikido-like techniques but to teach Aikido requires some history in Aikido
Wrong, I have been to plenty of Aikido classes where they didn't teach the history of Aikido. You are trying to smuggle this in.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:38 PM   #124
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote] As scientists we realize that the empirical world imparts truth only within the paradigm of inquiry. Alas, many do not realize this….[/[/QUOTE

The empirical world DOES NOT impart truth. Science has NEVER demonstrated that man learns through his senses. If you think you can, then you should write a book demonstrating this. It will be an instant hit! Because, George Berkley, David Hume, John Locke, Francis Bacon, and many others have tried to prove that man learns through his senses, but they all failed miserably. The world of epistemology awaits gentlemen.

You would think that a scientist would have at least had a class or two on the history of modern philosophy.

I would recommend that you "scientists", if there is such a thing, visit my friend's web site: www.trinityfoundation.org
You can go through his archives and find plenty of essays refuting the so-called Scientific-method.

Science can never discover truth.
Plus, why don't you guys use the "scientific-method" to prove mysticism, then you can stick to the thread at hand.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-09-2005, 10:45 PM   #125
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Here we go. Have fun guys ....

And it was clear from context that I meant personal history.

Last edited by PeterR : 06-09-2005 at 10:48 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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