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Old 06-08-2005, 10:50 PM   #76
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
What makes you think that I do not know what I am talking about when it comes to Aikido just because I am not currently taking any Aikido classes? I don't take Aikido, I can teach it. I choose not to at this time.
Just curious, have you ever done aikido, and for how long, and who were your teachers? Just trying to establish the epistemological basis from which you are making your claims.

Ignatius
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:03 PM   #77
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Jun wrote:
Quote:
Any way, I wouldn't say that aikido is unique in such thoughts. Even Kano sensei has written about the principle of "jita kyoei" (mutual welfare and benefit) for judo. I'm sure that those folks (myself included) who have been on the receiving end of some judo techniques will say that my impact with the earth (oof) sure didn't feel so beneficial to my health! Yet, I can understand how the principle of "jita kyoei" comes through in the actual keiko and the shugyo.
Jita-Kyoei is often taught as a principal part of Judo. This is false.
Jita-kyoei cannot be deduced from the Gokyo-no-waza, shime-waza, kensetsu-waza, and so forth. It is an ethical principal that was smuggled into jacketed wrestling (Judo). To claim that it came from Judo is ridiculous.

I was actually asked to leave one Judo school because when the teacher asked me what I thought Judo was (in front of everyone) I told him, "Judo is jacketed wrestling." The teacher said, "You can't mean that! Tell me that is not what you mean!" I told him, "That is exactly what I mean, and that is exactly what Judo is." The teacher said to me, "But, Beetle, don't you think that Judo can teach people to be better moral people? Don't you think Judo has the potential to bring about world peace?" I tell this nut, "Judo teaches a person how to throw, pin, lock, and strangle another person. These techniques have no bearing on whether I steal a car or pay for it. They neither encourage me to support democracy nor anarchy."

Being a master of Judo does not mean you are a good, peaceful, and moral person. One of the best Judo players I know loves to hang out at strip joints, get drunk, start fights, whip the bouncers when they come to stop the fights, and is often having to be bailed out of jail the next day. He will then go teach his kid's class about how Judo gives the moral strength to do the right thing. He knows that such moral claims attracts more students, and more students mean more money, and more booze, strippers, .....

Red Beetle
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:12 PM   #78
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Just curious, have you ever done aikido, and for how long, and who were your teachers? Just trying to establish the epistemological basis from which you are making your claims.
Yes I have done Aikido.
Epistemology is the study of how humans learn knowledge.
Do we learn through our senses?
Do we learn by deducing propositions from an axiom.
Do we learn by divine revelation.
And so on.

What you want to establish is my Aikido resume.
A list of experts who were my teachers has nothing to do with the argument at hand. This is a informal fallacy, a mistake in reasoning.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:29 PM   #79
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

A person who does ONE class of Aikido can also say I've done aikido, and my teacher was such and such. Does that mean that that person "learnt" or even "knows" aikido? I think not....

So, answer the question....how long for and who "taught" you? What's your experiential basis for making these claims?

Ignatius
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:36 PM   #80
maikerus
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Yes I have done Aikido.
Epistemology is the study of how humans learn knowledge.
Do we learn through our senses?
Do we learn by deducing propositions from an axiom.
Do we learn by divine revelation.
And so on.

What you want to establish is my Aikido resume.
A list of experts who were my teachers has nothing to do with the argument at hand. This is a informal fallacy, a mistake in reasoning.

Red Beetle
I know that this has been discussed a number of times recently, but establishing credentials is important in a forum like this where no one knows you.

As an alternative to telling everyone who your teachers were and how long you trained and what style you trained in you could give us access to a number of videos where you are doing Aikido both as shite and as uke.

If you haven't had any formal training in Aikido then it is possible that you don't have the right to have an opinion about Aikido.

This is something many people forget...if you don't know anything about something then you should either go find out about it or keep quiet. Handing out opinions on something you have no knowledge of is like practicing medicine without a license. Maybe you think you're helping...but probably not.

Oh...and as for definitions...
Quote:
eˇpisˇteˇmolˇoˇgy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pst-ml-j)
n.
The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.
That all being said...I've enjoyed your posts. But evading the issue of lineage is stupid if you want any respect here. And starting an obviously controversial thread entitled "Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward" without answering simple questions on where you come from and what you base your opinion on seems to me to be blatantly provocative.

FWIW,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:50 PM   #81
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Michael Gallagher]
Quote:
Look at the name of the art: Aikido. Whether or not ki exists, O Sensei certainly believed in it, and it's right there in the name of the art.
A rose by any other name is still the same.
We can keep all the techniques of Aikido, but call it something else.



Quote:
Except that the martial artist who did that would be guilty of being grossly disrepectuful to the founder, and failing to to his job of preserving and passing on what was passed to him.
So what.


Quote:
My Kali teacher, who also has permission to teach Pentjak Silat Serak
This is the United States of America. I don't have to have permission from any punk to teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, or Pentjak Silat. If I learn something, and I want to teach it, then have at it. This is the beauty of a free market. The U.S. Constitution is all the permission I need. I say this, because I know all to well about how some of these oriental socialists think. You don't need permission to teach martial arts. Thank God the Gracies didn't listen to those stupid oriental traditions when they decided to break from the traditional nonsense to establish a more practical system.


Quote:
Martial arts is not just about teaching someone a skill -- it is about passing on part of a culture
You can use part of your class time to explain how Japanese people eat, sleep, and worship, and if your students are dumb enough to not object, then who cares. But if a person comes to you and pays you to learn how to defend himself, and you show him how to eat with chop-sticks, then I would say that you are in breach of contract.


Quote:
that's why their terminology is in Cantonese. It may even be true of Western Boxing -- you just don't notice the culture becaue we're in it.
It makes no difference if you call the 6th throw of the Judo by the following names: O-goshi, Hip Toss, Big Hip Throw, or The Red Beetle Special.
A rose by any other name is still the same.
I don't need to know Japanese culture to be able to hip toss a guy.
The Greeks were hip-tossing people long before the Japanese had Judo (see the Illiad circa 9th century b.c.).




Quote:
And if the "mystical nonsense" is an important part of what O Sensei wants passed down, then you'd damn well better pass it down, or you are not doing your job as an Aikido student/teacher.
If your math teacher decides that you should add 5+5 to get 12, will you keep practicing this, and teaching it to others? What if it is wrong to add 5 and 5 to get 12? Should we dare go against our teacher and add 5 and 5 to get 10? Will teacher get mad at us for doing math correctly, rather than the way he wants us to?
If O-sensei was wrong, then he should be corrected.
It would be stupid to take his word for it just because he was taught by this guy, and that guy, or because he is the founder of this system, ot that system.


Quote:
If you want to learn how to fight, don't go to anyone for formal training in anything. Just move to a bad neighborhood and get in fights every day.
Now apply your reasoning to driver education.
If you don't know how to drive, but you want to learn how, then don't go to someone to teach you how.....just get into a car and pull out into traffic. You will learn how from experience...if you don't kill yourself or others. This is not a good idea for learning how to drive, and it is not a good idea to learn how to fight.

RED BEETLE
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:00 AM   #82
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I was actually asked to leave one Judo school because when the teacher asked me what I thought Judo was ... I tell this nut, "Judo teaches a person how to throw, pin, lock, and strangle another person. ...
Being a master of Judo does not mean you are a good, peaceful, and moral person....
And rightly so! In fact, why call what you do Judo? Why not just call it jiujitsu? All you're practising is techniques of base violence, devoid of any moral and ethical basis. Let's call a spade a spade.

Yes, you can take the principles of aiki and apply it to what you do, devoid of any spiritual mysticism - but can you call what you do "aiki-do"?

Ignatius
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:13 AM   #83
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Monty Collier]
Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:

A rose by any other name is still the same.
We can keep all the techniques of Aikido, but call it something else.
You might lose more than the name.


Quote:
So what.
So this: Respect. It is a very big deal in many Asian cultures. My Kali instructor -- who, BTW, is a red-blooded American -- takes it very seriously. If you don't, that's your perogative.

Quote:
This is the United States of America. I don't have to have permission from any punk to teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, or Pentjak Silat. If I learn something, and I want to teach it, then have at it. This is the beauty of a free market. The U.S. Constitution is all the permission I need. I say this, because I know all to well about how some of these oriental socialists think. You don't need permission to teach martial arts. Thank God the Gracies didn't listen to those stupid oriental traditions when they decided to break from the traditional nonsense to establish a more practical system.
In the first place, Guro Andy's Serak instructor, Maha Guru Victor de Thouars, is not an "asian socialist." He is a Dutch Indonesian who has lived in this country since the 1950s (I think). He served in the US Marine Corps, and is probably more patriotic than some people who were born here. He certainly doesn't have anything nice to say about people who would burn the flag.

But he is also a traditional Indonesian master. Why do you need permission from him to teach Serak? Because it isn't just something he picked up somewheres -- it's a sacred family heirloom. That's why he's working so hard to promote it, to insure it doesn't die off. When you're in with him, it's the best. But when you're out, you're out, and not showing proper hormat or respect is a good way to get booted out. And people have been.

Before putting your other foot in your mouth, please reread the paragraph before the last one. Thank you.

Quote:
You can use part of your class time to explain how Japanese people eat, sleep, and worship, and if your students are dumb enough to not object, then who cares.But if a person comes to you and pays you to learn how to defend himself, and you show him how to eat with chop-sticks, then I would say that you are in breach of contract.
The martial art itself is a part of the culture. You are preserving it whether you like it or not.

Quote:
I don't need to know Japanese culture to be able to hip toss a guy.
The Greeks were hip-tossing people long before the Japanese had Judo (see the Illiad circa 9th century b.c.).
You might to be a good martial artist.

Quote:
If your math teacher decides that you should add 5+5 to get 12, will you keep practicing this, and teaching it to others? What if it is wrong to add 5 and 5 to get 12? Should we dare go against our teacher and add 5 and 5 to get 10? Will teacher get mad at us for doing math correctly, rather than the way he wants us to?
If O-sensei was wrong, then he should be corrected.
It would be stupid to take his word for it just because he was taught by this guy, and that guy, or because he is the founder of this system, ot that system.
If after doing martial arts for however long you've been doing them, you don't have the vaguest understanding of giving people the respect they're due, then I won't bother. But maybe you should do something else with your disposable income.
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:17 AM   #84
CNYMike
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Grr! Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
.... some Aikidoka keep throwing chum in the water by starting threads about judo, I will keep swimming around awhile until i know there is no more blood in the water. Then i will go peacefully back to judoinfo.com.
Well, then let's call a truce: Aikidoka will stop "chumming" by posting about Judo, and loudmouthed Judoka won't make any more posts about Aikido. Ok?

Last edited by CNYMike : 06-09-2005 at 12:25 AM. Reason: Change a word
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:19 AM   #85
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Michael Stuempel]

Quote:
but establishing credentials is important in a forum like this where no one knows you.
It may be important to those who do not understand logical reasoning. But, the fact remains, you are not correct just because you are person X, but you are only correct if what you teach is correct.

If a teacher of math claims that 2+2=5
while a 5 year old claims that
2+2=4
then would you listen to the 5 year old?
But, he is not one with credentials!
He has not graduated from the math dept. at Harvard!
How could the math teacher be wrong?
Stars above, this guy teaches math, shouldn't he know?

It doesn't matter who you are, or who taught you.
If you are right, then you are right.
The attempt to determine if a person's argument is valid or not based upon who that person's teachers were is an informal logical fallacy (that means it is a mistake) called ad hominem.
In English it is known as the Fallacy of Expertise.


Quote:
As an alternative to telling everyone who your teachers were and how long you trained and what style you trained in you could give us access to a number of videos where you are doing Aikido both as shite and as uke.
Check my web-site from time to time. I will be uploading such video clips for view.


Quote:
If you haven't had any formal training in Aikido then it is possible that you don't have the right to have an opinion about Aikido.
Nonsense.
I don't have to have any training in Aikido to have an opinion about it.
What about informal training? Would I have the right to have an opinion then?
I love how some the people here have the audacity to tell others that they do or do not have the right to think.

I have never played Major League Baseball. I have never had any "formal" training in Major League Baseball, but I have the opinion that those guys get paid way too much for just playing a child's game.


Quote:
Handing out opinions on something you have no knowledge of is like practicing medicine without a license. Maybe you think you're helping...but probably not.
You can practice medicine without a license. A license does not make a doctor good at what he does. It just means that someone approves of him. Doctors screw up, kill people, and get the hell sued out of them everyday.

Quote:
Oh...and as for definitions...
The definition supports what I said about Epistemology.
The nature of knowledge would be whether knowledge is sensation, or propositional (which relates directly back to empiricism or rationalism)

Quote:
But evading the issue of lineage is stupid if you want any respect here.
Being logical is not stupid.
I am not interested in anyone respecting me.
I am more interested in the truth.
Let others kiss butt and suck up if that is how one gets respect in this place.

Quote:
And starting an obviously controversial thread entitled "Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward" without answering simple questions on where you come from and what you base your opinion on seems to me to be blatantly provocative.
Seems to me that you just can't step back and examine some basic premises of Aikido.

RED BEETLE
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:27 AM   #86
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Michael Gallagher][

Quote:
You might lose more than the name.
Please demonstrate how changing the name of a throw will change the throw, rather than assume such nonsense.



Quote:
So this: Respect. It is a very big deal in many Asian cultures
It is even a bigger deal in Western culture, because respect has to be earned, not taken for granted.


Quote:
But he is also a traditional Indonesian master. Why do you need permission from him to teach Serak? Because it isn't just something he picked up somewheres -- it's a sacred family heirloom.
Big deal. He needs to get legal rights to it if he wants to dominate it in the public. Rorion Gracie did this with the name Gracie Jiu-jitsu. Your teacher may look into this.



Quote:
The martial art itself is a part of the culture. You are preserving it whether you like it or not.
You have yet to prove this.


RED BEETLE
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:33 AM   #87
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Lynn Seiser]
Quote:
Aikido is a tool
This is a true statement.


Quote:
It can be studied without the mysticism.
Also true.

RED BEETLE

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Old 06-09-2005, 12:41 AM   #88
maikerus
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
It may be important to those who do not understand logical reasoning. But, the fact remains, you are not correct just because you are person X, but you are only correct if what you teach is correct.
I agree with you. But so far all we have seen are words. To believe that the words are true or even that they are your words requires either training with you, watching numerous videos of you training or finding out where you learned Aikido from.

Quote:
Nonsense.
I don't have to have any training in Aikido to have an opinion about it.
What about informal training? Would I have the right to have an opinion then?
Certainly. As long as training is involved. What do you mean by informal training anyway? I am hoping you don't mean that had a discussion with a guy over coffee who once saw an Aikido class 10 years ago and learned everything you know about Aikido in that informal setting.

So...are you telling us that you received your Aikido training "informally"?


Quote:
I love how some the people here have the audacity to tell others that they do or do not have the right to think.
Actually, I said it was *possible* that you didn't have a right to an opinion. It depends if you know anything about Aikido or not. Simple, eh?

So far you haven't said anything that couldn't be parroted from someone else. Are these original thoughts you are having?


Quote:
I have never played Major League Baseball. I have never had any "formal" training in Major League Baseball, but I have the opinion that those guys get paid way too much for just playing a child's game.


Opinion One: Childs game. I guess you haven't played it seriously...as those who make their livelyhood at it might. Of course, I am not a professional baseball player either. Maybe you're right...maybe they do consider a child's game.

Opinion Two: Way too much money. If they get paid it then it can't be too much as far as the people paying their salary is concerned. Of course...that could just be a business decision that you obviously have more experience and knowledge to make for the owners of baseball teams, though.

/sarcasm off.

Quote:
Seems to me that you just can't step back and examine some basic premises of Aikido.

RED BEETLE
Seems to me you have to know some first...and you haven't demonstrated that to my satisfaction. Sorry...just the way it is.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:45 AM   #89
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
How would you like it if your sensei was a Catholic and they did Catholic religious rituals during class?
If your opposed to Catholicism, then you may quit or disregaurd such rituals.

At one school where I trained I always refused to participate in Judo "meditations", and I told my teacher why.

At my school now, we do not bow.
Some traditional guys come to my school and they say, "Beetle, why don't you bow?" I say, "I am not Asian."
They say, "Beetle, why don't you clear your mind with meditation before doing Judo?"
I say, "Your mind needs to be on Judo when you do Judo, not on nothing. If your mind is clear when the guy attacks with Harai-goshi, then your going to get slammed. You wouldn't want to be riding in a car with a guy who's mind is clear and on nothing. No, you would say, 'Hey, get your mind on your driving before you kill us!'
Judo, like Aikido, requires a mind full of knowledge, not a mind that is clear, blank, and focused on nothing.

People at my school know that I am a Calvinist.
But, I don't get paid to teach Calvinism.
I get paid to teach Jacketed wrestling (Judo and Jiu-jitsu), and NO-Gi wrestling (Greco-Roman, Free-style, and Folk-style).

RED BEETLE
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:46 AM   #90
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Big deal. He needs to get legal rights to it if he wants to dominate it in the public. Rorion Gracie did this with the name Gracie Jiu-jitsu. Your teacher may look into this.
Pak Vic trademarked the name "Serak" some years ago. Done.

The rest of your post is not worth responding to. If you can debate an issue without resorting to a combination of insults, evasions, and finger-wagging lectures on logic, I'll be happy to debate you. Othwerwise, not interested. 'Bye.
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:51 AM   #91
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Interestingly I was defending RB at Honbu last Sunday - now I'm embarrased.

Shades of Mark T.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-09-2005, 12:57 AM   #92
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Being logical is not stupid.
Very well, Mr. Beetle. Logic it is.

The nature of your knowledge of Aikido is in dispute, yet you refuse to detail how you came about your knowledge. Did you receive instruction? Did you read books? Did you simply watch a few videos? The topic of debate is the effectiveness and/or usefulness of Aikido philosophy, so the extent of your knowledge of this philosophy is relevant. For example: I may watch a few UFC matches and conclude that shooting for the legs is an stupid technique because a good kicker can kick the shooter in the face as he shoots. However, if I actually trained in MMA/grappling, I may have a different, and more knowledgeable, opinion. Those who have this more knowledgeable opinion my disregard my un-knowledgeable opinion on the basis that I do not have enough experience with grappling to know how effective the technique is. This would be rational. The Aikidoka who are disputing you feel that they can disregard your opinion in a similar way, because you do not have enough knowledge of Aikido philosophy to have a realistic opinion. Please detail for us exactly what you know about Aikido, so we may know how seriously to take you. Your refusal to do this is an indication that you have something to hide.
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:00 AM   #93
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Michael Stuempel]
Quote:
I agree with you. But so far all we have seen are words. To believe that the words are true or even that they are your words requires either training with you, watching numerous videos of you training or finding out where you learned Aikido from.
Again, your attempting to change the subject of this thread. You seem to be intellectually bankrupt on this topic.
The Red Herring won't work


RED BEETLE
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:06 AM   #94
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

What does early Canadian salt workers habits and bears have to do with anything
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:14 AM   #95
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
Quote:
Very well, Mr. Beetle. Logic it is.
What you wrote was rhetoric, not logic.


Quote:
The nature of your knowledge of Aikido is in dispute
No, the topic of this thread is not "the nature of my knowledge of Aikido. Please read the thread topic, and return to the subject of discussion.

Quote:
, yet you refuse to detail how you came about your knowledge
Because that is a red herring. Take a course on logic.

.
Quote:
Did you receive instruction? Did you read books? Did you simply watch a few videos?
Are you denying that you cannot learn knowledge from such mediums?


Quote:
The topic of debate is the effectiveness and/or usefulness of Aikido philosophy
No, the topic is Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward


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I may watch a few UFC matches and conclude that shooting for the legs is an stupid technique because a good kicker can kick the shooter in the face as he shoots. However, if I actually trained in MMA/grappling, I may have a different, and more knowledgeable, opinion. Those who have this more knowledgeable opinion my disregard my un-knowledgeable opinion on the basis that I do not have enough experience with grappling to know how effective the technique is. This would be rational.
This is not rational. It does not matter what one's opinion is, but what the truth is. If it is true that one should not shoot for the legs under specific circumstances, then you should not.


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The Aikidoka who are disputing you feel that they can disregard your opinion in a similar way, because you do not have enough knowledge of Aikido philosophy to have a realistic opinion.
Again, apply the reasoning to math.
A guy claims to a group of people that 2+2=4
The group thinks the guy doesn't have enough math classes under his belt to make such a claim. So, they pass off what the guy is saying as foolishness. Again, it matters not who is saying the proposition, but what matters is that the proposition that is being said is true or false.



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Please detail for us exactly what you know about Aikido, so we may know how seriously to take you. Your refusal to do this is an indication that you have something to hide.
This line of reasoning is fallacious.
It is like when a person is arrested and the police question the person. The person says, "I would like my lawyer present."
The police respond in an attempt to intimidate the person and say, "Only someone who has something to hide, or has done something wrong needs a lawyer." Such nonsense works on some, but not those who understand basic Logic.

I can refuse to tell you who my father is, and that does not mean that I have malicious intent towards you. I can refuse to tell you who trained me, and how long I trained, and that does not mean that I mean you evil. You are arguing from what has not been said. Try arguing from what has.

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Old 06-09-2005, 01:25 AM   #96
Red Beetle
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

[quote=Jon Reading]Separation of Church and Class!?


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To remove the spiritual component would leave you with a collection of techniques that resemble daito ryu. To remove the physical component would leave you with religious doctrine. Together, you have a martial art called aikido.
If you see a guy in a room full of mats execute iriminage (Do I need to show my list of credentials before I use this term?), then do you run up and ask him if he believes the spiritual doctrines of Uyeshiba before concluding that this guy knows some Aikido?

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Old 06-09-2005, 01:26 AM   #97
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
When considering how to improve any Martial System it is necessary to take inventory, and examine if what is being taught is logically consistent and beneficial to the system as a whole.
Makes sense to me. Good thought.

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Take for example the teaching of "Ki."

Lots of Aikido people run around talking about "ki", but the fact of the matter is that the teaching of "ki" is simply a mystical/magical teaching which conjures belief in superstitious nonsense.
Interesting. I have never had this experience in my 20+ years of Aikido. I wonder where you got it...where did you train anyway?

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Students attempt to clear their minds, chant words or syllables, breath a certain way, assume postures, and so forth in the attempt to grasp or develop a magical power that is about as real as George Lucas' "Force."

Students and Teachers would do better spending their time in the examination of, and actual practice of technical skills, rather than pretending to direct a make believe power from their bowels to their fingers.
Interesting. I have found that people who come to Aikido with this attitude usually leave within a few weeks since it obviously doesn't work like that. Usually they are smart enough to figure this out and either get with the program or run away.

Where have you seen this - yourself - happen? I would like to know so that if I meet any students from there I can be careful with them.


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Another example of the useless mysticism inherent in Aikido was the recent video that appeared on one of the forum threads. The clip did a nice job demonstrating technical skills that actually make up the system of Aikido. However, from time to time one would see something like: "Aikido is love." flash on to the screen.

Aikido is love?
Please.
Good point. That bothered me, too. On the other hand I did enjoy the Aikido in the clip itself. Some of it was similar to what I study and some different...but the principles were there to see.

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Just because a teacher, or a founder of Aikido was a nice guy, this is no basis for concluding that what he taught was the source of this kindness.

Just because a teacher, or a founder of Aikido claims that what he teaches will bring a moral harmony and love for mankind, this is no basis for concluding that what he taught actually accomplishes his claims.


If a person was not familiar with Aikido, and its mystical teachings, do you really think that such a person would conclude that Aikido was the way of peaceful harmony just by watching a demonstration of Aikido projections or neutralizations? Of course not.
They may be impressed, but no such moral assertion will be made from watching such a demonstration.
Okay...makes sense to me.

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One can practice ethics in Aikido class, but one cannot deduce ethics from Aikido.

If ethics are taught at Aikido class, then they did not come from Iriminage or kotegaeshi, but from Asian philosophy or religion. Since that is clearly the case, why should I pay homage to such Asian religious philosophy? Why not some other religion? Why not deontology? Why not utilitarianism?
Not sure what you are getting at here. Why would ethics have to come from Asian philosophy or from religion at all. I would guess that it would be the ethics of the instructors that would mold the dojo culture...but I don't see religion getting into it.

Where you trained, was religion an integral part of the teachings of the dojo? Where did you train, anyway?

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If you don't need Aikido to live in harmony and peace with your neighbor, and clearly you don't, then maybe Aikido doesn't need Asian philosophy of religion in order to function. Maybe Aikido is simply a physical exercise that can be used in a self-defense situation.
Makes sense to me.

Just out of curiousity, where did you train and how long have you been training. You said a couple of things I haven't experienced and I'm wondering what style and what lineage shaped your obviously strong opinions.

Looking forward to your response.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:38 AM   #98
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Quote:
The nature of your knowledge of Aikido is in dispute
No, the topic of this thread is not "the nature of my knowledge of Aikido. Please read the thread topic, and return to the subject of discussion.
Please read carefully. I did not say that the topic of discussion was your knowledge of Aikido. I simply said that you knowledge of Aikido is in dispute. Do you deny that the origins of your aikido knowledge have been questioned?
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yet you refuse to detail how you came about your knowledge
Because that is a red herring. Take a course on logic.
How so? What you know about Aikido's mysticism is relevant, by the topic you set.
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Did you receive instruction? Did you read books? Did you simply watch a few videos?
Are you denying that you cannot learn knowledge from such mediums?
It is improper to answer a question with a question. I do not deny that information can be obtained from a variety of sources, I simply asked what source you obtained your information from. You still have not answered.
Quote:
Quote:
The topic of debate is the effectiveness and/or usefulness of Aikido philosophy
No, the topic is Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
No. "Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward" is the title of the thread.
Quote:
Quote:
Please detail for us exactly what you know about Aikido, so we may know how seriously to take you. Your refusal to do this is an indication that you have something to hide.
This line of reasoning is fallacious.
It is like when a person is arrested and the police question the person. The person says, "I would like my lawyer present."
The police respond in an attempt to intimidate the person and say, "Only someone who has something to hide, or has done something wrong needs a lawyer." Such nonsense works on some, but not those who understand basic Logic.

I can refuse to tell you who my father is, and that does not mean that I have malicious intent towards you. I can refuse to tell you who trained me, and how long I trained, and that does not mean that I mean you evil. You are arguing from what has not been said. Try arguing from what has.
It is you who is arguing from what is not said. I did not say, nor imply, that hiding the origins of your aikido knowledge was evil or malicious. I simply said that not revealing your sources implies that you are hiding them. If you are hiding something, it is reasonable to assume you have a reason for hiding. The simplest and most obvious reason that you would not say how you came about your knowledge of Aikido is that you fear that this information would weaken your position. The only way this information would weaken your position is if your knowledge of Aikido is inferior. I can therefore assume that if you do not tell us how you know about Aikido then your knowledge of Aikido and it's philosophy is inferior.
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Old 06-09-2005, 01:51 AM   #99
maikerus
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Keith Kolb wrote:
It is you who is arguing from what is not said. I did not say, nor imply, that hiding the origins of your aikido knowledge was evil or malicious. I simply said that not revealing your sources implies that you are hiding them. If you are hiding something, it is reasonable to assume you have a reason for hiding. The simplest and most obvious reason that you would not say how you came about your knowledge of Aikido is that you fear that this information would weaken your position. The only way this information would weaken your position is if your knowledge of Aikido is inferior. I can therefore assume that if you do not tell us how you know about Aikido then your knowledge of Aikido and it's philosophy is inferior.
Seems logical to me

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 06-09-2005, 02:40 AM   #100
Keith_k
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Let's start from the beginning.

Quote:
Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward
You don't just say that mysticism is unnecessary. You say that dropping mysticism is a step forward. This implies that keeping the mysticism is a step back. You are saying that mysticism somehow makes the techniques less effective. Please explain how this is so.

Quote:
Take for example the teaching of "Ki."

Lots of Aikido people run around talking about "ki", but the fact of the matter is that the teaching of "ki" is simply a mystical/magical teaching which conjures belief in superstitious nonsense.
Ki can be a way to explain natural phenomena otherwise covered by physics, anatomy and neurology. Some people have a better time grasping concepts explained this way rather than with torque, moments of inertia and center of gravity. I do not see how this reduces the effectiveness of the art.

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Students attempt to clear their minds, chant words or syllables, breath a certain way, assume postures, and so forth in the attempt to grasp or develop a magical power that is about as real as George Lucas' "Force."
Maybe you miss the point of clearing your mind. Bruce Lee, a very pragmatic martial artist, stressed the point of clearing your mind. The point is to not be focused on a certain technique and to be open to whatever technique is appropriate to the situation. And of course if your mind cluttered with thoughts of things other the situation you are in you will not be as effective.

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Students and Teachers would do better spending their time in the examination of, and actual practice of technical skills, rather than pretending to direct a make believe power from their bowels to their fingers.
Do you know for certain that students and instructors do not spend time examining and practicing technique? This is where your own knowledge of aikido, and how you came about this knowledge become relevant.

Quote:
Another example of the useless mysticism inherent in Aikido was the recent video that appeared on one of the forum threads. The clip did a nice job demonstrating technical skills that actually make up the system of Aikido. However, from time to time one would see something like: "Aikido is love." flash on to the screen.

Aikido is love?
Please.

Why not say, "Baseball is love." , "Golf is love.", "Nascar is love", or whatever else someone decides love is to them.
The word 'love' quickly loses any meaning.
If a word can mean anything, then it simply means nothing.
Why does this one video exemplify the entire art? If some Aikidoka wish to view their art as an expression of love, will this make their technique ineffective?

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Just because a teacher, or a founder of Aikido was a nice guy, this is no basis for concluding that what he taught was the source of this kindness.
As it was pointed out to me, many schools of Aikido do not emphasize kindness, and have no problem dishing out hurt when appropriate. Also, there is no reason why it is wrong or ineffective to strive to do as little harm to your opponent as possible (while still keeping yourself safe).

Quote:
If a person was not familiar with Aikido, and its mystical teachings, do you really think that such a person would conclude that Aikido was the way of peaceful harmony just by watching a demonstration of Aikido projections or neutralizations? Of course not.
They may be impressed, but no such moral assertion will be made from watching such a demonstration.
Why do you assume that these demonstrations were meant to convey this message?

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The reason it would be impossible to deduce a moral principal from a visual or tangible demonstration is because you cannot start with something you see (Aikido demo), and end up with something you cannot see (moral ideas).

One can practice ethics in Aikido class, but one cannot deduce ethics from Aikido.
If a dojo chooses to teach morality as part of Aikido, then morality becomes part of their Aikido. There is not reason why teaching self defense technique excludes teaching morality.

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If ethics are taught at Aikido class, then they did not come from Iriminage or kotegaeshi, but from Asian philosophy or religion. Since that is clearly the case, why should I pay homage to such Asian religious philosophy? Why not some other religion? Why not deontology? Why not utilitarianism?

If I want to go to church, why would I go to Aikido class?
Why can't philosophy be taught in conjunction with technique? As you have pointed out yourself, it is a free country. Those who do not like philosophy or spirituality with their martial art are free to seek instruction else ware.


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If I want to learn how not to fight, couldn't I just ask an Amish person? Wouldn't that be easier than all that physical combat training? Aikido is combat training isn't it? The Amish manage not to fight without Aikido. The Amish manage to live in harmony without Aikido. Maybe Morihei Uyeshiba should have joined an Amish community instead of the religious school of Omoto-kyo.


If you don't need Aikido to live in harmony and peace with your neighbor, and clearly you don't, then maybe Aikido doesn't need Asian philosophy of religion in order to function. Maybe Aikido is simply a physical exercise that can be used in a self-defense situation.
Again, there is no logical reason why conflict avoidance could not, nor should not, be taught in conjunction with self defense technique, nor is there a reason why teaching conflict avoidance or philosophy or spirituality would render technique less effective.
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