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Old 07-07-2006, 12:20 AM   #326
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I do recall being forced to learn and use japanese in my training. I was forced in judo and in aikido. Sure I could call it a hip toss, but I better know its called O goshi when I test or I'm not going to pass .....
Sorry, but that doesn't meet the threshold of "forced" to me.

Quote:
That requirement is just stupid in my opinion. It adds nothing and helps no one. Its called a hip toss, I learned in in wrestling, I learned it in judo, I learned it in bjj. Its a hip toss. I dont care if you call it monkey throws the log, its still a hip toss. Its not the terms that bother me, its being forced to use that and being told I'm disrespectfull and ruining the system and not learning aikido or judo when I dont use a japaneese word that I have the problem with.
[Yoda] Hear you nothing that I say?[/Yoda] One more time: A martial art is intertwined with the culture of its country of origin. They are not separate. So when you don't use the Japanese/Chinese/Thai/Korean/Whatever terms, you have lost something.

Good luck ordering meat and cheese covered by tomato sauce, BTW.
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:04 AM   #327
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Good luck ordering meat and cheese covered by tomato sauce, BTW.
...and chop suey is called "stir fried cabbage, carrots and bean sprout in soy sauce". My my, we will need very big menus ...

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-07-2006, 02:28 AM   #328
ksy
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I was actually asked to leave one Judo school because when the teacher asked me what I thought Judo was (in front of everyone) I told him, "Judo is jacketed wrestling." The teacher said, "You can't mean that! Tell me that is not what you mean!" I told him, "That is exactly what I mean, and that is exactly what Judo is." The teacher said to me, "But, Beetle, don't you think that Judo can teach people to be better moral people? Don't you think Judo has the potential to bring about world peace?" I tell this nut, "Judo teaches a person how to throw, pin, lock, and strangle another person. These techniques have no bearing on whether I steal a car or pay for it. They neither encourage me to support democracy nor anarchy."

Being a master of Judo does not mean you are a good, peaceful, and moral person. One of the best Judo players I know loves to hang out at strip joints, get drunk, start fights, whip the bouncers when they come to stop the fights, and is often having to be bailed out of jail the next day. He will then go teach his kid's class about how Judo gives the moral strength to do the right thing. He knows that such moral claims attracts more students, and more students mean more money, and more booze, strippers, .....

Red Beetle
hey man,

maybe you should talk to that judo friend of yours before he ends up kiling himself or somebody else. just my 3 cents.

not sure if you've said anything about this yet but i didn't go thru all the threads for this topic. too many, you americans sure like to talk, and talk, and talk....

btw, im religous (christian) but not a spiritual person, yet.
good to have you around sometimes, though you got a lot of "hot air", might get a bit quiet without you. you know how it is with us aikidoist. cheers!

Last edited by ksy : 07-07-2006 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:04 AM   #329
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Rebecca Montange wrote:
At some point though the Japanese terminology is just more efficient. What's easier and faster to say? "Sankkyo" or "Dance with me or I'll break your wrist"? Especially since "Dance with me or I'll break your wrist" could be the name of several other techniques...
Not so sure about that Rebecca, I practice a system where all the different attacks have been given numbered forms ie. Shomen uchi = 5th form, Yokomen uchi = 6th form, uke's right hand grabs tori's right wrist = 1st form etc, it seems to me that this is more efficient, no need for an english speaker to learn a new language, and from some of the japanese terms that I've seen they are quite complex.
I admit that if I were to practice in a dojo where japanese was used to describe the attack I may struggle with the words, but once I'd seen the attack I wouldn't struggle with the technique

Having said that we still use the japanese descriptions of the techniques themselves, ikkyo, shihonage etc. after all ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo is just a numbering system too.

IMO there is no 'need' to keep an art in the language of origin for it to be practiced, in fact it can be an extra layer of complexity that can be and is in some places removed or converted, without loss of any purity of the art.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:56 AM   #330
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
...and chop suey is called "stir fried cabbage, carrots and bean sprout in soy sauce". My my, we will need very big menus ...

Boon.
Just last night I ordered the Streak medium rare, shrimp, and sausage with a loaded baked spud, veggies, and apples from my favor te place to eat. Talk about complicated menus.

I'm not saying its wrong to use Japanese or incorporate new words. When I order Chinese I order things like broccoli beef, general Tao's chicken, etc. When I order Japanese I order sushi. Why? Because its a term I heard enough that it is the only way I know how to say it.

I find English to be easier to explain. I don't have to stop and think, now which way is tenkan again? When i talk to a noobie I don't say, ok, get kuzushi, enter irimi and perform the O goshi. I will tell them, grab him, pull him to break his balance, turn into him until your but is halfway past his thigh (or sometimes the more crude, pretend his leg is a hot dog and your butt is a hot dog bun) then perform the hip throw. In fact irimi, tenkan, and the combination of the two are words I could really do without ever hearing again. Kuzushi is another word I could do without. They slow down the learning process because they are not consistent in their meaning. Its like telling someone, you need to use more ki. It doesn't tell them anything. Should they relax more? Extend more? Are they not leaving the hand and moving the body? Are they trying to use too much strength? What is the real problem?

I had a judo teacher reply to my questions on why I couldn't use a throw well in sparing with "Your not getting the proper kuzushi". Wow, that helps a lot. Now had he said, you need to turn his weight onto his front foot by turning him like a steering wheel I wouldn't of struggled with it and could of got to practicing this movement a lot faster.

I do agree that some techniques should be named. There are some aikido techniques I can not think of a good English name for. However, at the same time I see other aikido schools call these techniques by different names. Or they use different movements for the same name. Thats just as confusing if not more so when trying to describe to someone what you are about too do.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:58 AM   #331
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I don't think there should be any hard and fast rule...different strokes and all that. I will say that if I want to learn something, and someone is willing to teach me, I may not change my own views about things, but I will be quiet and learn. Whining about learning a few words from another language just seems like ... whining to me. If you don't like it so much...don't do it. If you want something badly enough...stop whining and do it. Simple.

I do know that when I trained in France it was nice to know what waza we were working on before hand. Even though the terminology is different between Iwama and Yoshinkan, I had no problems following right along. It's one of the reasons I thanked my own instructor for preparing me so well. I didn't have to speak French, or have someone translate for me.

Sensei: Katatetori shihonage.
Ron: Hai.
No problems.

Best,
Ron (I really should learn to speak French though...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:04 AM   #332
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't think there should be any hard and fast rule...different strokes and all that. I will say that if I want to learn something, and someone is willing to teach me, I may not change my own views about things, but I will be quiet and learn. Whining about learning a few words from another language just seems like ... whining to me. If you don't like it so much...don't do it. If you want something badly enough...stop whining and do it. Simple.

I do know that when I trained in France it was nice to know what waza we were working on before hand. Even though the terminology is different between Iwama and Yoshinkan, I had no problems following right along. It's one of the reasons I thanked my own instructor for preparing me so well. I didn't have to speak French, or have someone translate for me.

Sensei: Katatetori shihonage.
Ron: Hai.
No problems.

Best,
Ron (I really should learn to speak French though...)
The internet is for whining and discussing. Obviously I dont whine that i have to learn japanese in class. Instead I simply either a) dont do it, or b) do it.

What I do and how I feel about it are two different things. Yes, I could see how a learning japaneese would help allow multiple cultures to commincate while training. This is a good reason. I like it. I wish my judo teacher would of used it instead of "Because its part of the culture" when I asked. Of course luckly for me, I speak poor french :-)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:18 AM   #333
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward



I have to admit it's a little different when your teacher is Japanese. But even he has made adjustments for teaching in America, as opposed to Japan.

I also agree that there is a certain amount of 'dress up and play samurai' out there, and no, I don't particularly like that, although I'm probably guilty of a certain amount of it myself. But as time has gone by, I've mostly just decided to ignore that, and get on with training. I'm not too worried about teaching myself.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 07-07-2006 at 07:21 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:21 AM   #334
mriehle
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
That gave me a good chuckle. Please remember though...this is an OLD thread, and dear old Monty probably doesn't even read the posts here anymore.

Best,
Ron (cracks me up though...)
His latest post was 6-13-06.

Not that this means anything, really. But it's possible he's still around.

Regardless, the fundamental idea in the thread (mysticism) is a worthwhile topic of discussion.

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Old 07-07-2006, 07:24 AM   #335
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I hated having to learn Korean to do TKD. I thought it was the stupidest thing, I'm Canadian in Canada doing a martial arts, why learn Korean?

Now I find I love learning even just bits and pieces of other languages. It's like me saying I'm willing to go out of my way to accommodate you. I find people treat you very different even if you know how to say hello in their language.

As far as Japanese and Aikido I think I'm going to side with the majority here. Aikido is a Japanese martial art. No one is forcing you to take Aikido. Brown belt tests are done in Japanese only, no English. Bunch of reasons for it. Maybe they want to ensure it "stays Japanese" or maybe they want aikidoka to be on the same level so techniques will be called the same thing everywhere you go (which makes a lot of sense).

If you feel so against learning the language then stay at a level where techniques are still called in English, it's always your choice. An honestly, this isn't really learning Japanese per say. It's using Japanese names to identify techniques or a few activities, hardly learning a language.

My sensei is french trying to translate Japanese into English. I've looked at him like he has a toaster on his head more than a few times Japanese is a good compromise between my English and his french.

Quote:
I had a judo teacher reply to my questions on why I couldn't use a throw well in sparing with "Your not getting the proper kuzushi". Wow, that helps a lot.
That all comes in time. The longer you train the more you're exposed to Japanese terminology. No one would (or should) expect a white or yellow belt to know this stuff. As your exposed to it constantly you pick up on it naturally. I think it just makes a standard.

Edit: I do remember your frustration Don and have an idea where you're comming from. I think the Sensei in these situations neesd to take a lot of care when explaining the language and terms to beginning students, some people will become a lot more frustrated when trying to understand a foreign language ontop of the stress of trying to learn techniques right?

Last edited by Guilty Spark : 07-07-2006 at 07:33 AM.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 07-07-2006, 07:35 AM   #336
dps
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
An honestly, this isn't really learning Japanese per say. It's using Japanese names to identify techniques or a few activities, hardly learning a language.
Next time I'm in a Japanese restaurant I will try to order my meal with the Japanese I learned in Aikido practice.
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:36 AM   #337
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Ah, no...7-31-05. From his profile, find his posts. But hey, no biggie...

Best,
Ron (Hey Monty! you out there!?!?)

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/search...earchid=163649

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
His latest post was 6-13-06.

Not that this means anything, really. But it's possible he's still around.

Regardless, the fundamental idea in the thread (mysticism) is a worthwhile topic of discussion.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:39 AM   #338
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Shihonage kuzushi with a dash of peper please....

WHAM!

Hmmm, maybe I'll just try the sushi...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:35 AM   #339
Keith R Lee
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I'm not sure about everywhere else but at my old dojo (Yoshinkan) we almost always used English. The Japanese would be mentioned as well, but the majority of the class was: "Front strike, 3rd control, #1. Side-strike, side step-in throw. etc." I don't think anyone there was worse for wear.

Learning Japanese does not make the techniques any more holy or special. There is also the potential to be trapped by the "romanticism" of it all (Japanese, dogis, kamiza, bowing, etc) and thinking by having all those things, one is an effective martial artist because of those things and not the proficency of one's technique. Or also the whole "playing samurai" aspect that Ron mentioned that I think manifests itself in many Aikido dojos.

Lastly, as fars as techniques go: "A rose by any other name ..."

Keith Lee
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:40 AM   #340
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

I argued with Red Beetle on this well over a year ago! wow, time flies. He was very opinionated, egoistic, and, trollish....and as i predicted back then, he dropped off never to be heard of again.
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:47 AM   #341
Chuck.Gordon
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Was Aikido minus mysticism: a long time ago in a universe far, far away ...

Heya Kevin!

The dead (threads) live on. I keep expecting to see George A. Romero to chime in.

I'm just back from a month in the US. Had some excellent training with folks in Vigrinia (waves at Jim), Colorado (Hey Frank, do YOU know Jun?) and Indiana (with a whole gaggle of Midwest budo bums - got to play some Shinto Hatakage Ryu, Kodokan Judo, Yoshinkan Aikido and we cut LOTS of tatami!).

Not a BIT of mysticism anywhere to be found. Just good budo.

Last edited by Chuck.Gordon : 07-07-2006 at 10:49 AM.

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Old 07-07-2006, 11:02 AM   #342
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Wow! Sounds like you had a great budo trip! I was actually at Graf today. Went by checked out the new Gym and had to do my GPC audit. Wow! What a nice Gym! I might be holding a tournament up there soon when the 2 SCR guys all get on the ground!

Sorry I could not make it by was a quick turn around trip...as usual!
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:15 AM   #343
mriehle
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Ah, no...7-31-05. From his profile, find his posts. But hey, no biggie...

Best,
Ron (Hey Monty! you out there!?!?)

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/search...earchid=163649
I musta got the year wrong. I know it was 6-13. See and that would make it a month ago. As opposed to a year ago.

My bad.

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Old 07-07-2006, 08:37 PM   #344
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Just last night I ordered the Streak medium rare, shrimp, and sausage with a loaded baked spud, veggies, and apples from my favor te place to eat. Talk about complicated menus.

I'm not saying its wrong to use Japanese or incorporate new words. When I order Chinese I order things like broccoli beef, general Tao's chicken, etc. When I order Japanese I order sushi. Why? Because its a term I heard enough that it is the only way I know how to say it.
And the problem with doing this in martial arts is ....? Yes, with a newbie, you don't hurl terminology at him. But one would expect the newbie to pick it up as he or she went along. Giving out a handout with the terminology also helps. Then they can memorize it at their own pace. So I guess this is not bad after all?
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Old 07-09-2006, 12:40 AM   #345
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
And the problem with doing this in martial arts is ....? Yes, with a newbie, you don't hurl terminology at him. But one would expect the newbie to pick it up as he or she went along. Giving out a handout with the terminology also helps. Then they can memorize it at their own pace. So I guess this is not bad after all?
No problem with it, except for I dont know what 90% of the japanese I know actually means. Hell, I don't even know what sushi means and I order it at least once a month. So I'm just spouting off words for the sake of spouting them off.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-09-2006, 01:13 PM   #346
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
No problem with it, except for I dont know what 90% of the japanese I know actually means. Hell, I don't even know what sushi means and I order it at least once a month. So I'm just spouting off words for the sake of spouting them off.
Well, within the context of a martial arts class, hopefully someone can provide translations. Memorization isn't hard.

As to what "sushi" means .... well, I don't know what LaSagna means, but I know I love it!
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Old 07-09-2006, 01:51 PM   #347
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Wow! Sounds like you had a great budo trip!... What a nice Gym() at Graf! I might be holding a tournament up there soon when the 2 SCR guys all get on the ground!
Keep me posted.

Yeah, it was a great trip, but I'm glad to be home ...

Got to train with Jim Baker and his folks in Norfolk, Frank Gordon and his dojo in Colorado (and observed the Sugano seminar in Aspen -- we gotta talk about that one in private! Do you know Jun, by the way?), and got to hang out with and train with my oldest and longest-running students in Indy (Bob's 70-ish and Tim started training with me at the tender age of 15 ...), got to visit the dojo grandkids and spend a weekend playing with Peter Boylan, Susie and Sean in Fort Wayne, Scotty from the Yosh dojo in Indy, Kim and Mary from Bloomington and lots of old students and friends.

Pics here: http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...don/June%2006/

See you soon?

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Old 07-09-2006, 09:06 PM   #348
ksy
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I argued with Red Beetle on this well over a year ago! wow, time flies. He was very opinionated, egoistic, and, trollish....and as i predicted back then, he dropped off never to be heard of again.
opinionated, egoistic, and, trollish, yes, but not life threatening. i kinda miss reading the threads. btw, even if he was a pain in the a**, red beetle offered us an opportunity to practise "vocal aikido". i hope some of us took it.
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Old 07-09-2006, 10:47 PM   #349
aikigirl10
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
even if he was a pain in the a**, red beetle offered us an opportunity to practise "vocal aikido"
this is true
i think i generally fail miserably at vocal aikido.
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Old 07-10-2006, 10:11 AM   #350
James Davis
 
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Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
this is true
i think i generally fail miserably at vocal aikido.
Sorry, Paige. I have to agree with you on that one.

In vocal biting, scratching, and kicking, though, you excell.



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