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Old 06-06-2005, 09:52 PM   #1
rookie
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more defenses

still considering aikido for police work. just wondering if there are defensive moves for suspects who bum rush you? and are there chokes in aikido?
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Old 06-06-2005, 09:56 PM   #2
Bronson
 
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Re: more defenses

Quote:
William Bosworth wrote:
are there chokes in aikido?
There can be. Depends were you train it. There is no such thing as a standard, all-style syllabus. Even within organizations what is taught from one dojo to the next can vary wildly. Check out all the local options and see if one can teach the stuff you're looking for.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-07-2005, 08:30 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Re: more defenses

Quote:
William Bosworth wrote:
still considering aikido for police work. just wondering if there are defensive moves for suspects who bum rush you? and are there chokes in aikido?
Bum rush? Randori
Chokes? Yes

Do a search on Koga Sensei, Ledyard Sensei, and Dye Sensei. They all have an excellent take on LEO.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-07-2005, 10:53 AM   #4
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
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Re: more defenses

I was at a Seminar with a couple of Yoshinkan/BJJ guys last month and they used a shihonage entry into a kata-hajime takedown. (single wing strangle)

Surprisingly effective, it winds on nicely, and..well ...surprising.

(Gadi and Alon - good luck in Brazil, guys)

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Old 06-07-2005, 01:59 PM   #5
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: more defenses

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
I was at a Seminar with a couple of Yoshinkan/BJJ guys last month and they used a shihonage entry into a kata-hajime takedown. (single wing strangle)
The weapons work we were doing in the other dojo was very nice and all, but I'm really miffed that I missed that class!

Sean
x
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Old 06-15-2005, 06:57 AM   #6
Randathamane
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Re: more defenses

Quote:
still considering aikido for police work. just wondering if there are defensive moves for suspects who bum rush you? and are there chokes in aikido?
Aikido is good for police work as you do not have to harm your opponent. Many techniques work by the fact that they will attempt to get up or run away and so inflict pain on themselves as you simply stand there. Eventually the opponent figures out that each time they move there is a sharp pain- and so the give up relatively quick...
main principle is harmonizing and getting out of the way, so for the police this is a good idea. Has some flaws, but still a good thing on the whole...

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Old 06-15-2005, 09:24 AM   #7
aikigirl10
Dojo: Aikido of Ashland
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Re: more defenses

we actually practice chokes fairly often in aikido , but thats just one dojo
-paige
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:37 AM   #8
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
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Re: more defenses

Quote:
William Bosworth wrote:
still considering aikido for police work. just wondering if there are defensive moves for suspects who bum rush you? and are there chokes in aikido?

It is just a matter of selecting the right Dojo for you. Some places will practice any situation; others will stick to several basic situations.

In the Dojo I practice, Sensei is happy to examine any new situation one can imagine, and assist the students in finding a solution for it (advanced students would be asked to try and find some solutions before sensei gets to the task). Often, the whole group would then practice those situations.

Last time I recall there was a lot of violence against medics, and one of the female students who worked at a hospital asked about a specific close range situation. We ended up working on that scenario for a couple of lessons, practicing an endless number of options for it and similar situations.

Note that some of the places that limit to specific situations are not bad, and the sensei there will be happy to assist his advanced students in applying the same concepts and techniques to different situations. Those will explain the limitation is just for studying purposes, and the implementation is not limited.

Amir
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Old 06-15-2005, 12:51 PM   #9
Adam Alexander
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Re: more defenses

I thought there were MA systems that weren't MAs--Law Enforcement (rights abridgment officers...occupying army...whatever) schools that train you guys for exactly what you need?

I'm under the impression that to train in a MA makes you more susceptible to litigation. Is that the case?
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Old 06-15-2005, 02:10 PM   #10
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: more defenses

not a lawyer or anything, but it seems to make sense that the more power and skill you possess, the more responsibility you have in controling and using it appropriately. I see no problem with that.

I would think it would be harder for a court to prove the level of proficiency with a MA than with a weapon as it is somewhat subjective in nature as to how skilled you are in a situation. That said, juries are made up of people, and perspective, and having a good lawyer is everything.
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:04 PM   #11
DustinAcuff
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Re: more defenses

William, Aikido is great for police work, if you have a good sensei. Realistically, Aikido is a long haul art and it may take you a year or more to really start getting the benefit from it. Almost all of the people I train with are police or faimly of police. The officers love it and have taught members of their units (maybe not the right term) a number of techniques that go into arrest, even the very first one. As far as I know it just depends on the sensei's ability and application time in the real world.

On liability, if you are concidered skilled and you screw somene up, you will be held at fault. It is the responsibility of EVERY martial artist to apply only the necessary force to stop an attacker. From what the officers have told me and talked about, police are permitted (in California at least) to raise one level above force given. This allows for some wiggle room. But it really boils down to the more time and experience you have with any type of training the harder they will judge you on if you acted/reacted wisely and with just cause. It is the curse of being trained.
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Old 06-16-2005, 05:28 AM   #12
ian
 
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Re: more defenses

Whenever we practise irimi-nage we also practise chokes. This is because chokes are nice if someone turns their back to you whilst performing such (or any) a technique. Chokes can be dangerous - in a US study it was found that if someone came around AFTER being choked once, choking them again may kill them. Learn to do a proper choke (squeezing the sides of the neck with forearm and bicep) rather than an arm bar across the throat - this is far quicker (a matter of seconds to knock out) and doesn't damage the trachea. In fact a whole arm bash into the side of the neck, followed directly by a choke can be very effective (although strikes to the neck can increase incidence of strokes in later life - so don't try this with force). However chokes are such a valuable technique I think they are very necessary to learn (if only to learn how disabling they can be).

What is a bum rush? Is this where they bend over and run at you backwards? )

I presume its just a grab to the waist with an attempted take down. Posture is everything in aikido, if you are relaxed, have a strong posture, and turn/move with the attack, such a technique can be dealt with - usually includes push to shoulder/head (Ueshiba does it in some film footage).

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 06-16-2005, 11:46 AM   #13
DustinAcuff
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Re: more defenses

I'm not in favor of teaching chokes for a number of reasons:

1. The carotid artery (blood) choke that was just described with the forearm and bicep is dangerous!!! If uke stops breathing, something not too uncommon, then you are going to have to force air into their lungs. Some people react funny to being choked out.

2. There is no reason that ANYONE should EVER be choked out or to death. Getting out of almost any choke is relatively simple. Before someone calls me on this I can and have trained with MMA/BJJ/Cage fighters who are quite proficient at applying them. There is a nerve that runs under the bicep that can be pressed to cause uke to release his grip, as well as a few diffrent methods to remove the rear hand (the one not choking you) and take uke into a kind of arm bar or yonkyo position.

3. In light of reason 2 why teach something that someone could get out of and potentially end your existance as you know it?
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Old 06-18-2005, 03:36 AM   #14
Jorx
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Re: more defenses

Dustin that must've been some wussy MMA fighters choking you.

There are only 2 sure ways to end a fight:
1: a choke
2: a major head trauma
...I would choose a choke 'cause if all done properly, the guy will wake up and live on afterwards. My personal experience tells that it'll take 8-10 seconds to put a resisting person to sleep. With what will you press the biceps? The jaw? How can you be sure to find the nerve point? How do you know that this particular person does not have some weird immunity to this particular point? A proper choke always uses 2 arms - both nicely between the chokee and the choker. Doing a one-handed choke I'd use the other arm to control the opponents arm.

Could you reveal the name of the clubs where you have trained with mma/bjj/cagefighters?
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Old 06-18-2005, 09:51 AM   #15
mj
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Re: more defenses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
2. There is no reason that ANYONE should EVER be choked out or to death. Getting out of almost any choke is relatively simple. Before someone calls me on this...
Consider yourself called

There is no way you will get out of a choke/strangle by attacking a nerve in the upper arm.

No offence meant.

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Old 06-18-2005, 02:57 PM   #16
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: more defenses

Chokes are effective, and once applied properly can be difficult to get out of. How are you going to push on the nerve under the bicep (brachial nerve?) if you are in the rear naked choke.

Yes you can get out of almost any choke. The trick is to be able to get out of it before it is applied, or avoiding it all together. Respectfully, getting out of any choke is not always realitively simple, however.
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Old 06-19-2005, 02:15 AM   #17
AikiSean!
 
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Re: more defenses

If you do decide to practice aikido, make sure to tell the sensei of your dojo that you are a police officer. We have several at our dojo and sensei always shows them very cool, interesting ways to neutralize and make sure they are face down. Perhaps turned slightly away from the dash-cam
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