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Old 06-03-2005, 12:39 PM   #76
Mike Sigman
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Seriously, how did teleportation become as aspect under the ki umbrella?
A magician's trick that seems to involve "teleportation" was explained in terms of using ki. Of course it was a trick, but since it was an "unknown force", it legitimately falls under the heading of "ki". It becomes clear that a test for a single something called "ki" is absurd when you understand that "ki" was a catchall for all "unknown forces".
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Old 06-04-2005, 10:46 PM   #77
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hmmmm.... I rest my case, Ted. Bill Douglas is a guy with no credentials, no real knowledge, etc., in Taiji who promoted himself to some publishers, started the "World Tai Chi Day" that attracts the New Age crowd, etc…
You said there was no relationship between center of gravity and dan tien. When I come up with a quote that equates them, you attack the expertise of the writer. What you say could be very true. What I know is that his definition of dan tien is in a book that has been printed in the hundreds of thousands. I think you might be very busy explaining your interpretation to the next generation of Tai Chi and Qi Gong practitioners.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
…Ted, Tohei modified the style of teaching. That's all he did…Different people modify their Aikido in different ways, Ted... but that doesn't mean they have come up with something new. Tomiki combined judo with Aikido; Shioda tried to codify Aikido, etc.... but those are varying approaches, not radical innovations…
Presently there is a thread asking about Ueshiba and healing. The founder did not incorporate healing into aikido, but it is part of the Ki Society curriculum because Koichi Tohei put it there. Shioda created his own distinctive katas and Tomiki introduced judo style training. My reasoning says that they created these things for their respective styles. There was nothing comparable in the founder's training. It was not a modification because there was nothing in place to modify.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Sure, but Tohei has added his own quasi-relgion to the original Aikido. It's quite a marketing tool. I think it might be illuminating for you to visit with some of the better level Chinese martial artists who have great qi skills, Ted. It might help you put into perspective that what Tohei does/sells/teaches is not a radical innovation in the Asian world of qi and qigongs…
Falun Gong also known as Falun Dafa could be the largest Qi Gong organizations in the world. They are persecuted by the Communist Chinese government. Meanwhile their leader Li Hongzhi, has moved to New York, New York (one is a city name, the other is a state name -- Stefan). He is presently writing about aliens cloning humans and controling the world. The whole situation could be laughable except for the fact that people are getting tortured and dying because of their belief in qi.

If you know anything about qi in China, you know it's a source of fraud. "Qi" masters regularly entertain the superstitious populace with amazing stunts of qi. So I don't have your automatic admiration for Chinese "Qi" masters.

That said, I do know there are very good Chinese martial artists who can do authentic demonstrations of qi. However they only have the opportunity to work with a few of their students. This brings us back to the Ki Research Society.

What K. Tohei did was take his top people and have them work on problems as a team. For example, when the Taigi was being created, he had his top people do the various attack/technique combinations. These people all finished a specific taigi within seconds of each other. If you had a strong pair extending ki well, the result was fairly consistent time wise, even though this was unplanned. This fact was included in the final Taigi.

For example taigi one (Katate-Tori same side wrist grab) has six techniques, which are performed on both left and right sides. The timing starts when the pair bows in and ends when the pair bows out. The pair has 58 seconds to complete taigi one with a plus or minus 2 seconds leeway. This time factor is something that would probably be missed if the taigi was created by a single person or smaller group.

Overall, it seems you're taking a simplistic approach to complex problems. The fact that you were unaware of Will Reed, indicates you are making assumptions based on very little knowledge about K. Tohei and his organization. It seems you're also unaware of the complexities that your assumptions bring.

Let us assume that qi "is an umbrella term that includes a number of ‘unknown' forces." Further that this qi paradigm appears as a pattern within the human body. What pattern do you chose to study? Is the pattern of Indian chakras or Chinese meridians? Does this qi paradigm incorporate both the patterns of charkas and meridians or is the optimal pattern different? What will be the criteria that you will use in making this judgment?

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Old 06-05-2005, 07:59 AM   #78
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

[QUOTE

For example taigi one (Katate-Tori same side wrist grab) has six techniques, which are performed on both left and right sides. The timing starts when the pair bows in and ends when the pair bows out. The pair has 58 seconds to complete taigi one with a plus or minus 2 seconds leeway. This time factor is something that would probably be missed if the taigi was created by a single person or smaller group.

Hi Ted:
When you do the above do you have an uke or are you doing the movements as a kata? And is there a place where there is a video of this or more information?
Thanks,
Mary
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Old 06-05-2005, 08:10 AM   #79
Mike Sigman
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
You said there was no relationship between center of gravity and dan tien.
No, I did not. You're deliberately attributing something wrong to what I said.
Quote:
When I come up with a quote that equates them, you attack the expertise of the writer. What you say could be very true. What I know is that his definition of dan tien is in a book that has been printed in the hundreds of thousands. I think you might be very busy explaining your interpretation to the next generation of Tai Chi and Qi Gong practitioners.
Hmmmm... I don't know of any serious Taiji or qigong practitioner who takes Bill Douglas as an authority on Taiji, Ted. How seriously would you take a western Aikido practitioner that no one knows, who calls Aikido a "stress relief" exercise, but who convinces a publisher to let him author "An Idiot's Guide to Aikido"?????????????
Quote:
Presently there is a thread asking about Ueshiba and healing. The founder did not incorporate healing into aikido, but it is part of the Ki Society curriculum because Koichi Tohei put it there. Shioda created his own distinctive katas and Tomiki introduced judo style training. My reasoning says that they created these things for their respective styles. There was nothing comparable in the founder's training. It was not a modification because there was nothing in place to modify.
"Healing" has been a part of Ki for a very long time, Ted. Without knowning any specifics, I will bet you big money that the idea of "ki and healing" were well-known to Ueshiba. Besides, adding bits and pieces to of new things is exactly what I mean by "modifying"... but Ki practices were already in Aikido, Ted, unless you want to dispute it. I just don't see the point. The core of Aikido has not changed under Tohei, despite his different focuses and ways of changing the teaching method. I respect him for that.
Quote:
Falun Gong also known as Falun Dafa could be the largest Qi Gong organizations in the world. They are persecuted by the Communist Chinese government. Meanwhile their leader Li Hongzhi, has moved to New York, New York (one is a city name, the other is a state name -- Stefan). He is presently writing about aliens cloning humans and controling the world. The whole situation could be laughable except for the fact that people are getting tortured and dying because of their belief in qi.
How does this have anything to do with the discussion at hand??? Besides, LOTS of people in China believe in qi and are not persecuted. I don't know much about Falun Gong and from what I've heard I'm not too interested in devoting any effort in that direction.
Quote:
If you know anything about qi in China, you know it's a source of fraud.
It's a source of fraud in Japan and the US, too, Ted. Fraud and dishonesty and popular beliefs abound in many fields. Do you think I couldn't find a Ki Society fraud? Or an Aikikai fraud? Heck, I might even be a fraud. You should try and expose me with some facts, as I have asked for repeatedly.
Quote:
What K. Tohei did was take his top people and have them work on problems as a team. For example, when the Taigi was being created, he had his top people do the various attack/technique combinations. These people all finished a specific taigi within seconds of each other. If you had a strong pair extending ki well, the result was fairly consistent time wise, even though this was unplanned. This fact was included in the final Taigi.
Can you explain for me what you mean by "extending ki", Ted? Thanks.
Quote:
It seems you're also unaware of the complexities that your assumptions bring.
Why not point out those complexities and let's discuss them, Ted, instead of just making another assertion. List the problems and complexities you see in what I write and let's see if we can reconcile them. AFAIK, the only thing that will prevent us from reconciling issues in a discussion of Ki will be if you don't understand Ki and are following some sort of dogma with, perhaps, a misunderstanding. I'm assuming, based on what I know and have read, that Kohei's ki-power is legitimate. But let's discuss with facts, Ted... not assertions. If discussion won't do it, because of complexities, I can perhaps arrange a personal meeting where you can show me what you can do and I can show you what I can do. If we can do the same things in even one area, we can arrive at terms, I am certain.
Quote:
Let us assume that qi "is an umbrella term that includes a number of ‘unknown' forces." Further that this qi paradigm appears as a pattern within the human body. What pattern do you chose to study? Is the pattern of Indian chakras or Chinese meridians? Does this qi paradigm incorporate both the patterns of charkas and meridians or is the optimal pattern different? What will be the criteria that you will use in making this judgment?
I'm not Chinese, Ted... or Indian. I have simply remarked on what "qi" means in the Chinese paradigm and I have not stated or indicated that I believe in that paradigm. I look at "qi" and "prana" as attempts to explain observed phenomena by people in the past. I try to explain those phenomena in terms of the western science paradigm since that is the one with which I am most familiar. If someone says "extend ki", I want them to explain it to me in something other than their gibberish understanding of a paradigm they don't really understand.

All the Best.

Mike
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Old 06-05-2005, 09:14 AM   #80
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New York

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
New York, New York (one is a city name, the other is a state name -- Stefan).
Please, grant me some knowledge. I knew that. The joke is one used by New Yorkers.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 06-05-2005, 12:41 PM   #81
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
...Hi Ted:
When you do the above do you have an uke or are you doing the movements as a kata? And is there a place where there is a video of this or more information?
Thanks,
Mary
Here is the link to the old taigi videos

http://www.toitsu.de/taigi/taigi.htm

The following videos show the old taigi. If your
connection to the internet is not fast enough, it is
better to download the files first and play the local
copy. You need Windows Media Player 9 or higher to
watch them.

Some of them are by Kenjirô Yoshigasaki, I also think
some of them are by Maruyama.

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Old 06-06-2005, 08:51 AM   #82
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... I'm not Chinese, Ted... or Indian. I have simply remarked on what "qi" means in the Chinese paradigm and I have not stated or indicated that I believe in that paradigm. I look at "qi" and "prana" as attempts to explain observed phenomena by people in the past. I try to explain those phenomena in terms of the western science paradigm since that is the one with which I am most familiar. If someone says "extend ki", I want them to explain it to me in something other than their gibberish understanding of a paradigm they don't really understand...
You are not explaining ki/qi using the western science model, since science looks at known forces that it can quantitatively analyze. If what you have done so far is to "...explain observed phenomena by people in the past...." then what is your explanation of ki/qi, or do you have one?

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Old 06-06-2005, 09:08 AM   #83
Mike Sigman
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
You are not explaining ki/qi using the western science model, since science looks at known forces that it can quantitatively analyze. If what you have done so far is to "...explain observed phenomena by people in the past...." then what is your explanation of ki/qi, or do you have one?
??? I have explained some things, using physical terms like "force", "vector", etc. and how to do them. I have said perhaps 3 or 4 times that "ki" is a catch-all term into which a number of factors (mostly unknown forces) were lumped. So when you say "define ki" all I can say is that it's a catch-all term. If you take a specific phenomenon that is considered to be "ki" (but is in reality only one of a number of things that are called "ki") and then say "what is your explanation", we have a discussion basis. So you'll have to pick a component and ask me for my explanation.

However, let's note that I asked you a question, first. I asked you to clarify what you mean by "extend ki". Since ki is a vague term with many components, what you're saying is meaningless. By pinning down exactly what you mean by ki and "extending" it, we can have a discussion that might clarify a few things. At the moment I'm wondering about the broadness of the meaning of "extend ki". You are apparently including the idea of "using" ki as being part of "extending" ki. The core question is probably "what do you do in order to extend ki", the way I see it.

Mike
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Old 06-06-2005, 12:28 PM   #84
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Er, where have you "responded" to anything substantively, Craig? Take a look at your posts and what you've done with most of my direct questions...it's all archived. From a discussion standpoint, you make assertions and avoid questions. Shifting the topic to me and "arguing til the cows come home", i.e., trivializing a discussion you're obviously uncomfortable with, seems a little off-topic, IMO. When I debate real "scientists", usually there is something more substantive than just assertion and trivializing. Shall we return to the topic and the unanswered questions (see post #45 and at *least* respond to the question about ki-tests and state of mind).

Regards,
Mike Sigman

what you should ask is if I give a rat's ----

on my priority list, spending time making long posts on a website is not on the front page. I have a limited time to pay attention to this and many more compelling things that need doing. I am already out of time for this by the time I read your post. Read into that what you will.

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Old 06-07-2005, 09:01 AM   #85
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
??? I have explained some things, using physical terms like "force", "vector", etc. and how to do them. I have said perhaps 3 or 4 times that "ki" is a catch-all term into which a number of factors (mostly unknown forces) were lumped. So when you say "define ki" all I can say is that it's a catch-all term. If you take a specific phenomenon that is considered to be "ki" (but is in reality only one of a number of things that are called "ki") and then say "what is your explanation", we have a discussion basis. So you'll have to pick a component and ask me for my explanation.

However, let's note that I asked you a question, first. I asked you to clarify what you mean by "extend ki". Since ki is a vague term with many components, what you're saying is meaningless. By pinning down exactly what you mean by ki and "extending" it, we can have a discussion that might clarify a few things. At the moment I'm wondering about the broadness of the meaning of "extend ki". You are apparently including the idea of "using" ki as being part of "extending" ki. The core question is probably "what do you do in order to extend ki", the way I see it.

Mike
If you define ki as an objective force or in your case, a collections of forces, you're still confronted with several basic questions.
  • How do I reconcile Ki/Qi/Chi with the findings of modern science?
  • How do I justify the pattern of energy, either chakras, meridians or other pattern(s), that I believe is worth practicing?
  • What will be my criteria for judging this energy if I am not using the ones from modern science?
I would like to note that you have not answered any of these questions, despite your many responses.

I have not answered your question on extending ki for two reasons:
  1. It will have to be an extended post.
  2. The answer will probably not help you in any way.

I am reminded of the exchange between Lt Kaffee (Tom Cruise) and Col. Jessep (Jack Nicholson) in the film ‘A Few Good Men'.
Quote:
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled.
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth.
Col. Jessep: You can't handle the truth.
Are you sure you want this?

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Old 06-07-2005, 09:29 AM   #86
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
If you define ki as an objective force or in your case, a collections of forces, you're still confronted with several basic questions.[list][*]How do I reconcile Ki/Qi/Chi with the findings of modern science?
WHICH of the various ki phenomena are you talking about, Ted? I thought I made it clear that you're talking about various phenomena with Ki. For instance, two of the many contributing phenomena to Ki would be what we would explain as the effects of blood sugar on our energetic level and the effects of heredity on how lively and spry someone is. That's just 2 of many. So when you take a group-term like "ki" and say "how do you reconcile Ki with the findings of modern science", it gets exasperating because it's not a specific enough question to answer. Which particular aspects? Describe them.
Quote:
[*]How do I justify the pattern of energy, either chakras, meridians or other pattern(s), that I believe is worth practicing?
What "pattern of energy" are you talking about, Ted? There is the Indian view, the Chinese view, and some variants. For instance, even though the Indian description of the *perceived* "energy" is different from the description of the Chinese view there is no "Ha! I understand the *real* energy and you don't!!!" crap. Everyone who really does it accepts that there is some subjectivity to what they "perceive". So you can "justify" what you're talking about by reading some of the texts which I have listed numerous times on this forum. An open discussion might help with not only yours and my understandings, but also the understandings of other people who are interested in Aikido and in the topic.
Quote:
[*]What will be my criteria for judging this energy if I am not using the ones from modern science?
Hopefully, whatever criteria you use in private, you will attempt to use western-science-derived terminology on this forum so we have a common ground for discussion.
Quote:
I would like to note that you have not answered any of these questions, despite your many responses.
Go back and look at my posts where I have discussed electron flow in fascia, the central nervous system, research on acupuncture meridians in relation to fascial planes, James Oschman's book with annotated sources, etc. I'm not sure what you're "noting", but I've certainly discussed aspects of this before and you have been completely silent.
Quote:
I have not answered your question on extending ki for two reasons:[list=a][*]It will have to be an extended post.[*]The answer will probably not help you in any way.
Yes, well, I've come to expect the implied putdowns as part of many Aikido posts, but that sort of behavior needs to be left outside the discussion of issues, Ted.
Quote:
I am reminded of the exchange between Lt Kaffee (Tom Cruise) and Col. Jessep (Jack Nicholson) in the film ‘A Few Good Men'.

Are you sure you want this?
I"m sure you enjoyed the movie and that it was something that adds deeply to your life-philosophy, Ted. Yes, I'm ready. I've been ready. I'm waiting with bated breath to see if you can rationally present your views on Ki. I'm know for a fact that others are, too.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-07-2005, 10:48 AM   #87
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Ted, I really agree with what Mike said here about how "An open discussion might help with not only yours and my understandings, but also the understandings of other people who are interested in Aikido and in the topic." I am very curious. However, to be fair, I remember writing something very similar to Mike when he decided we were talking past each other... In that situation he decided to drop it, and I'm guessing that's how you feel about this current discussion.

Rob
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Old 06-07-2005, 11:09 AM   #88
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Rob, what is it going to take to get you to stop this constant "get at Mike", "get even", or whatever it is that you keep trying to do?
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Old 06-07-2005, 12:26 PM   #89
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

What I wrote supported both your position and Ted's. It was not disrespectful or inaccurate. I thought you might have written something along the lines of, "Hey Ted, Rob is interested too so please try to explain futher, but I understand if you just want to let it drop." Sorry for the confusion.

Rob
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Old 06-07-2005, 02:03 PM   #90
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Ted, I should have been clearer in tying in the first part of my last response to you: the phenomena of ki/qi are plural and I'll be glad to discuss any of them with you... but the thrust of my original question was to do with "extend ki", as you term it, while you're obviously referring to something to do with physical motion. I don't mind discussing the "etheric" ki (or "true ki", if you prefer), but the physical ki is what I'm interested in when you say someone, for instance, "extends ki" in a Taigi performance. I just don't want to lose sight of that part of the discussion.

Mike
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Old 06-08-2005, 09:17 AM   #91
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Caveat Emptor
This information is not an official Ki Society explanation of "Extending Ki", but is my own personal, current misunderstanding. If you use this information to do something stupid with disastrous results that is your fault. If you use this information to do something fabulous with successful results I will take full credit.
Four Basic Principles note 1
  1. Keep One Point.
  2. Relax Completely.
  3. Weight is Underside.
  4. Extend Ki.

Extend Ki is one of the four basic principles. It is also a principle of the Mind with Keep One Point. The four basic principles can be viewed as a transaction. If you have one of the principles, you have them all. If you extend ki, you are also maintaining the other three principles. However if you are not extending ki, you have also lost the other three principles.

Extending Ki (from the fifteen five principles) note 2
  • Centrifugal power is working.
  • Have merciful eyes and gentle body.
  • Be most calm.
  • Be happy without worry.

References to extension also appear in various other sets of the fifteen five principles.

The demonstration of extending ki is usually done using the unbendable arm. The subject holds out their arm, keeping a slight bend at the elbow joint. The tester uses both hands to bend the subject's arm in towards their shoulder. The subject tries to resist using just strength, but usually fails because the tester is using two arms to one.

Next the subject again holds their arm out with a slight bend at the elbow joint. This time the subject imagines water or energy coursing through their arm and spouting out their fingertips. Another way is to imagine reaching for something. The tester again uses both hands to try and bend the subject's arm towards their shoulder. This time the subject succeeds in keeping the arm extended although they use less effort. By extending the focus of their mind instead of just using strength, the subject maintains mind and body coordination.

The sun shines. Birds sing. The student smiles with glee. People, who do not see how this relates to aikido, muscle their uke into the mat. End of "Extend Ki" Lite Version.

Trouble in River City - While able to keep an unbendable arm with one arm, the subject tries to use both arms with a tester on each arm and fails. It becomes apparent that the mind switches between the two arms and cannot extend ki using both arms.

After some experimentation it becomes clear that if the subject holds out their arms and relaxes completely or thinks of one point, they can maintain the two unbendable arms. The fault is in thinking, "Now I am extending ki." This is not an act that is performed, but if one is relaxed completely, ki will be naturally extended.

Although the Ki Society does not change the four basic principles (4. Extend Ki) it adds the commentary "Ki is Extended" to indicate the natural extension of ki.

This commentary can be seen as having a relationship with the Ki Saying "Mind and Body were (are) originally one." note 3 There are two common misinterpretations concerning this saying. "Originally" is seen as a reference to ancient people. In ancient times, people had mind/body coordination. "Originally" is also seen as a reference to infants. As a new-born child you had mind/body coordination. Both interpretations are mistaken.

What Koichi Tohei is saying is that, "Originally as in ‘Right Now!' you have mind/body coordination." Your natural state is of the mind and body being one. Therefore any additional action will only diminish your power. The four basic principles are seen as guidelines to lead you back to this specific physiological/psychological state.

In the advanced ki tests, the tester extends ki towards the subject. The advice given to pass is to do nothing. By relaxing and doing nothing, you let your natural ki extension manifest itself in its most powerful, primal form.

If your test was as if the tester was totally ignore and you imagine yourself just standing alone, that would be the best results. There is no redistribution of pressure or bracing against a possible push. You simply put yourself into a natural state of being.

The skies darken. The forest is quiet. The student is puzzled and scratches his head. People who do not see how this relates to aikido, muscle their uke into the mat. End of "Extend Ki" full version.

Notes
  1. Tohei, Koichi "Ki in Daily Life", Kin No Kenkyukai H.Q. Tokyo Japan, 1978, pg. 27
  2. Reed, William "Ki : A Road That Anyone Can Walk", Japan Publications, Tokyo Japan, 1992, pgs. 80-83
  3. Tohei, Koichi "Shokushu - Unification of Mind and Body"

Last edited by tedehara : 06-08-2005 at 09:24 AM.

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Old 06-08-2005, 09:35 AM   #92
tedehara
 
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

errata
The first of the fifteen five principles for Extending Ki is Be unconscious of your body.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 06-08-2005, 09:43 AM   #93
rob_liberti
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Ted, what the heck is "fifteen five"?

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Old 06-08-2005, 10:13 AM   #94
Mike Sigman
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Next the subject again holds their arm out with a slight bend at the elbow joint. This time the subject imagines water or energy coursing through their arm and spouting out their fingertips. Another way is to imagine reaching for something. The tester again uses both hands to try and bend the subject's arm towards their shoulder. This time the subject succeeds in keeping the arm extended although they use less effort. By extending the focus of their mind instead of just using strength, the subject maintains mind and body coordination.
Thanks, Ted. Basically, you have said that by imagining a certain scenario, something happens that introduces a real and palpable force that a partner can feel. If a partner can feel it and it opposes his attempts to bend someone's arm, then an ordinary weight-scale or other devices can measure the change in resistive forces. The question now becomes: "What is causing the resistive forces? Is it a measureable dynamic involving some form of muscle contraction, or something along those lines? Or is it some mysterious Force that has entered your body because of your correct mindset and that force (or *something* other than your physical body) is countering the pulldown of your opponent." Can you give us an idea of what you think is physically happening, Ted? I think the most productive conversation will go in that direction.
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Trouble in River City - While able to keep an unbendable arm with one arm, the subject tries to use both arms with a tester on each arm and fails. It becomes apparent that the mind switches between the two arms and cannot extend ki using both arms.

After some experimentation it becomes clear that if the subject holds out their arms and relaxes completely or thinks of one point, they can maintain the two unbendable arms. The fault is in thinking, "Now I am extending ki." This is not an act that is performed, but if one is relaxed completely, ki will be naturally extended.
I have encountered something quite similar. A newbie can demonstrate power in one arm, or some limited manner (doesn't have to be just in an arm) and they can't do it in a more complex manner. After they train correctly and practice (i.e., they become more familiar and more experienced) they can exhibit these things in complex manners...like doing it in two arms... it just implies some practice. They may not think "one point", but they are indeed relaxing, keeping their qi sunk, and their mind iis automatically performing in the unusual method of establishing relaxed paths of force to where they are needed. Naturally, like in any skill, the amount of force generated along relaxed paths is limited at first and workouts are kept to a "no-load" condition so that the body can adjust to this different mode of movement and handling things. So we have two scenarios of doing two things... are those things the same? If they are the same thing (and it would be surprising if two people doing relaxed "unbendable arms" weren't doing the same thing *and* a number of other "ki tests"), then what is the commonality? HOW does this work in actuality, Ted? Are you positing an unknown force or do you think it's physical?

Secondly, you're saying "This is not an act that is performed, but if one is relaxed completely, ki will be naturally extended." Surely you realize that there are a lot of "relaxed" people (let's say people who do meditation, etc.) who can't do the "unbendable arm" trick? Wouldn't you agree that there is more to it than just being completely relaxed?
Quote:
In the advanced ki tests, the tester extends ki towards the subject. The advice given to pass is to do nothing. By relaxing and doing nothing, you let your natural ki extension manifest itself in its most powerful, primal form.

If your test was as if the tester was totally ignore and you imagine yourself just standing alone, that would be the best results. There is no redistribution of pressure or bracing against a possible push. You simply put yourself into a natural state of being.
The essence of the discussion, going back to the Taigi demonstration, is that "extending ki" somehow affected the timing of the performance of a given Taigi. I would say "using ki", etc., as a preference to "extending ki" because it's a too-broad and too-vague statement. Also, "simply put yourself into a natural state of being" sounds good, but let's go back again to the idea of someone just being relaxed and keeping their focus on their center, as meditaters, yogis, etc., do.... they still can't resist a push. The question again is "what is physically happening?", Ted. There's more to it than can be covered by "natural state of being". Remember you objected to my saying that Tohei's ki things were too vague? I mean it in the same sense that your explanations are using very vague terms. If these things (or *some* of these things, if you'd prefer) are in the physical world, subject to the laws of physics, we should be able to put a handle on them, I think. I can do these things and somewhat more, Ted... so let's dispense with the idea Craig offered that I wouldn't understand and try to look at it as finding a commonality in terms.

"Extending Ki" contains, I think (based on what I've gathered so far), the reason why Tohei was reportedly able to duplicate the jo trick. I.e., I think "extend ki" contains more than you realize at the moment. If it contains all these things, then the vagueness of applying it to a Taigi performance should be easily agreed as a valid perspective, wouldn't you agree?

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Old 06-08-2005, 10:31 AM   #95
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
errata
The first of the fifteen five principles for Extending Ki is Be unconscious of your body.
Let me throw this out for a thought-starter, Ted. There is an admonition when working with qi, among the Chinese, to more or less focus on what you want it to do and to ignore the body and what is going on in the body. The shortened version in the classical literature is more like "don't think about the body; don't think about the qi". I.e., these things will distract you.

However, there is no implication of just zoning out in the original statement and the reality is that it's just a caution not to put your mind on making the qi things happen. Do you see how a slight change in the reading of "be unconscious of your body" can shift the meaning of a statement? Look at the translation of the "Eight Powers" by John Stevens I mentioned yesterday... his translation threw me for a second until I cross-checked. That slight change of translation resulting in a totally different take on the meaning of a phrase is very common in the Asian-to-English translations. I would suggest that great care is needed in reading translations.... you always need to think "what would this mean if the meanings within the translation are changed?"

FWIW

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Old 06-08-2005, 02:47 PM   #96
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

I was wondering about something - typically I've seen unbendable arm done with the arm raised to horisontal. Is it practiced or done with the arm hanging as well? Because the first difficulty I see is that people don't often lift their arms very efficiently, that is, they engage the flexors of the arm too much (in various individual patterns) and that of course will affect how effectively the extensors can work.

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Old 06-08-2005, 08:03 PM   #97
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Errr... just read what I wrote again... didn't mean to sound like I was advocating that all the folks who do unbendable arm should be doing it differently or anything. I was just thinking about the mechanics of the situation. I was thinking that a thought along the length of the arm, like water hose or reaching for something, in part cab help to make the lifting/keeping the arm horizontal more efficient.

kvaak
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Old 06-08-2005, 10:19 PM   #98
Mike Sigman
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
Errr... just read what I wrote again... didn't mean to sound like I was advocating that all the folks who do unbendable arm should be doing it differently or anything. I was just thinking about the mechanics of the situation. I was thinking that a thought along the length of the arm, like water hose or reaching for something, in part cab help to make the lifting/keeping the arm horizontal more efficient.
Hi Pauliina:

I just went and had my wife attempt it (she's pretty strong) with my arm hanging at my side. I can still make it unbendable just hanging there with her pulling my wrist with one hand and pushing on the elbow with the other. Naturally she got irritated and started trying various methods to beat me... nice to have a competitive wife.

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Old 06-10-2005, 06:54 PM   #99
tedehara
 
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Ted, what the heck is "fifteen five"?

Rob
The fifteen five principles are fifteen sets of five principles that cover various subjects in Shin Shin Toitsu. See cited reference for further explanation.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 06-10-2005, 06:56 PM   #100
tedehara
 
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
I was wondering about something - typically I've seen unbendable arm done with the arm raised to horisontal. Is it practiced or done with the arm hanging as well? Because the first difficulty I see is that people don't often lift their arms very efficiently, that is, they engage the flexors of the arm too much (in various individual patterns) and that of course will affect how effectively the extensors can work.

kvaak
Pauliina
There is a test for weight is underside. which tries to move the wrist to the shoulder joint when the arm is by your side in a hanging position.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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