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Old 05-31-2005, 08:11 AM   #26
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Taoist immortality

Quote:
Nathan Gidney wrote:
I didn't think keeping your one point was supposed to prevent disease and make you live forever = / (but then again i've heard of "taoist immortal breathing exercises")
Apart from breathing exercises, the religious taoists made potions supposed to bring immortality. They contained some heavy metals, which were of course very powerful in sending people on to that beyond, which is called eternal

I have yet to hear of any method with a high probability to extend people's lives substantially.

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Old 05-31-2005, 09:54 AM   #27
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Good point.

Shioda G., Ueshiba M., and Tomiki K. lived to a ripe old age. Shioda G. lived a pretty unhealthy life - I bet it was the cigarettes that killed him not the "one point".

and Tohei Sensei, the man who has kept one point for 65 years of his 85 years is still going.

quite a bit of heavy drinking over several decades can be added in to the mix for most of these Sensei's too.

any smoking of course has a big impact on heart disease and cancer. More so now than we even thought a few years ago.

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Old 05-31-2005, 09:58 AM   #28
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote:
Meditation, as I understand it, both in the yogic and Christian traditions, is a very personal practice of letting go of the debris of everyday living, and learning to see more clearly the true essence of things. This is nothing like emptiness.

Alex

As the Desert Fathers would say "Bingo!"


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Old 05-31-2005, 10:03 AM   #29
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Fredrik Hall wrote:
I believe he is. And f I remember correctly, Tohei hasn't exactly been a health-freak either.
Yes, there are infamous stories of him drinking the students under the table and then tossing them around at 6:30 AM class.

He has been off the booze for a number of years per Doctor's orders.

of course, heavy drinking is not exactly anything new in Japanese culture.

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Old 05-31-2005, 10:29 AM   #30
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Yes, there are infamous stories of him drinking the students under the table and then tossing them around at 6:30 AM class.

He has been off the booze for a number of years per Doctor's orders.

of course, heavy drinking is not exactly anything new in Japanese culture.
Whoa!!! Let's not pick and choose what we admire and emulate, now! If Tohei does ki, let's do ki... if Tohei drinks heavily, let's knock a few down!!!

Mike
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Old 05-31-2005, 10:50 AM   #31
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Quote:
Alex Megann wrote:
Meditation, as I understand it, both in the yogic and Christian traditions, is a very personal practice of letting go of the debris of everyday living, and learning to see more clearly the true essence of things. This is nothing like emptiness.

Alex
As the Desert Fathers would say "Bingo!"

Given the number of people who "meditate" but seem clueless about the true essences of so many things....

Mike
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Old 05-31-2005, 01:34 PM   #32
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Yes, there are infamous stories of him drinking the students under the table and then tossing them around at 6:30 AM class.

He has been off the booze for a number of years per Doctor's orders.

of course, heavy drinking is not exactly anything new in Japanese culture.
I must confess I'm a bit in the dark bout his current medical condition and his medical history. Is it true he has suffered a series of strokes during the years, and that he has been in a wheelchair since the late 1980's?
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:30 PM   #33
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

thanks for entertaining me today
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Old 05-31-2005, 03:00 PM   #34
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Fredrik Hall wrote:
I must confess I'm a bit in the dark bout his current medical condition and his medical history. Is it true he has suffered a series of strokes during the years, and that he has been in a wheelchair since the late 1980's?
I can't tell you exactly when he was or was not in a wheelchair. Yes he has suffered some strokes, he has bounced back from them and his mind is clear from what I understand. How far his recuperation from the last stroke has progressed I cannot say. My Dad for example started out with the right half of his body paralyzed and unable to swallow (no gag reflex) and progressed over 6 months to walking and eating solid food. His mind and humor never left him. Impossible to know without being there exactly where Tohei is at physically without talking to his doctors and seeing the medical reports. My experience with my Dad taught that the doctors really don't know how far a recovery can go.

The picture on this page is from May,1999 shows him standing with a cane (front row, 2nd from left)
http://www.oregonki.org/inst.html

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Old 05-31-2005, 05:08 PM   #35
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Which one of my chakras controls world events?

Jeanne
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:29 PM   #36
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Jeanne Shepard wrote:
Which one of my chakras controls world events?
I think the common wisdom is that it's the swadisthana center.
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Old 05-31-2005, 11:23 PM   #37
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Wow, and here I was thinking senseis die because that's what everything that is alive does...

Exactly what is "one point" anyways? Is that your center?
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:25 AM   #38
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Rebecca Montange wrote:
Wow, and here I was thinking senseis die because that's what everything that is alive does...

Exactly what is "one point" anyways? Is that your center?
One point is a term used by Koichi Tohei. Others might describe it as your center/centre, dan tien or hara. Of course they would be wrong.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:52 AM   #39
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
One point is a term used by Koichi Tohei. Others might describe it as your center/centre, dan tien or hara. Of course they would be wrong.
Ted is being a bit cryptic.

They would be wrong because you can place your one point at your body center, at the top of your head, on the floor, center of gravity (which can be outside your body), across the room, etc. It's a beginner's misunderstanding to equate it with center, dan tien or hara easily made because putting your one point in your lower abdomen is good starting point for learning basic movements and breathing exercises. It most definitely is not a particular chakra/point on the body. It might be better understood as a focal point of awareness which guides your movement or response but that description doesn't quite cover all the bases.

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Old 06-01-2005, 08:09 AM   #40
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

my chakra told me that there are some unstable people here
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Old 06-01-2005, 08:31 AM   #41
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Ted is being a bit cryptic.
I'm sure he will make an excellent teacher.
Quote:
They would be wrong because you can place your one point at your body center, at the top of your head, on the floor, center of gravity (which can be outside your body), across the room, etc. It's a beginner's misunderstanding to equate it with center, dan tien or hara easily made because putting your one point in your lower abdomen is good starting point for learning basic movements and breathing exercises. It most definitely is not a particular chakra/point on the body. It might be better understood as a focal point of awareness which guides your movement or response but that description doesn't quite cover all the bases.
How about covering some of the bases, Craig? If you "place your one point" at the top of your head, on the floor, etc., does it relate back to any particular places in your body or is it just a free-floating point?

The idea of "keep your mind in your dantien" is pretty much akin to "keep your one point", although neither one of those statements says in full all the things you can do when you understand it. Both "chakra" and "dantien" have their origins as implying places from which the body powers focus. For instance, the "hara" or "dan tien" in the middle of the body (it's more correctly the "middle dantien", "main dantien", etc.) is a focal point for the powers of "heaven and earth" when you utilize them; i.e., it is not just a point that is in limbo from which you bend and direct things. All points of power have to be based on some reference point of power.

Above that middle dantien is the dantien in the chest area... however, the chest dantien is a secondary power point that is controlled by the middle dantien's power. My comment being that no point is free-floating. So would you mind clarifying, since you're a scientist, what you mean when you say you put a point at the top of your head, on the floor, etc.? Also, I take your comment that it is a "focal point of awareness", but "awareness" doesn't effect any forces, such as are demonstrated in ki-tests, etc.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-01-2005, 09:29 AM   #42
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So would you mind clarifying, since you're a scientist, what you mean when you say you put a point at the top of your head, on the floor, etc.? Also, I take your comment that it is a "focal point of awareness", but "awareness" doesn't effect any forces, such as are demonstrated in ki-tests, etc.

to say "no point is free floating" indicates such a deep misunderstanding that I wonder if I will be able to clarify anything for you given this conviction. To a scientist the term "awareness" itself is a ill-defined word and a major area of research so I haven't really done much other than move the confusion to a different term but for some it may convey a different sense of what one point is and get them thinking in the right direction. Ki tests are about testing a person's state of mind at that moment.

now my time to be cryptic
The one point is center of the universe. There are an inifinte number of one points.

Practice rather than words leads to understanding.

Last edited by kironin : 06-01-2005 at 09:32 AM.

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Old 06-01-2005, 09:43 AM   #43
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Tanden vs. one point

From what I understand, Tohei sensei uses a definition of "one point" (seika no itten, I assume), which is quite his own - or at least far from the traditional meaning of tanden, the center.

I have seen the term seika tanden - what would that mean, then?

Tanden, with its kanji components to be read appx. "the red rice field", is traditionally regarded as a center of great power. Most budo that I know of, traditionally teaches to do all movements with tanden as the base and the "motor".

PS: Jun, I'd love to see icons for tanden in kanji - but that's probably just me...

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Old 06-01-2005, 09:47 AM   #44
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No mystery

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
now my time to be cryptic
The one point is center of the universe. There are an inifinte number of one points.
That's no mystery at all. Einstein taught us that all the movements in the universe are related to each other. There is no one center of it. You can use any point as its center, even earth, so the geocentric perspective is no longer obsolete. On the other hand, it complicates calculations of celestial mechanics tremendously

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Old 06-01-2005, 10:18 AM   #45
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Quote:
My Question as I wrote:
So would you mind clarifying, since you're a scientist, what you mean when you say you put a point at the top of your head, on the floor, etc.?
to say "no point is free floating" indicates such a deep misunderstanding that I wonder if I will be able to clarify anything for you given this conviction.
Regardless of my unfortunate "deep misunderstanding", Craig, let me note the saying at the top of the webpage: "AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information." You made an assertion about placing the "one point" where you want it and I've asked you politely to clarify. Just for the moment, assume that you're not so far above me intellectually and skill-wise that my "deep misunderstanding" prohibits me from comprehending a good explanation, please.
Quote:
To a scientist the term "awareness" itself is a ill-defined word and a major area of research so I haven't really done much other than move the confusion to a different term but for some it may convey a different sense of what one point is and get them thinking in the right direction.
There are actually a few other bona fide scientists on this forum, Craig, and they represent different fields of study. So for you to indicate that all "scientists" define a term in a certain way seems a bit out of place and still doesn't answer the direct question that I asked.
Quote:
Ki tests are about testing a person's state of mind at that moment.
Really? You test a "state of mind"? How do you do that? Do you do it in a way that involves physical testing of some sort?
Quote:
now my time to be cryptic
The one point is center of the universe. There are an inifinte number of one points.
You may need to clarify. According to the logic of the explanations you have written, a practitioner can now place the literal center of the universe where he wants it. I dispute that and ask you to support your assertion.
Quote:
Practice rather than words leads to understanding.
I also dispute that assertion. Would you say that incorrect practice leads to understanding? Or do you mean correct practice? Have you attended seminars in which explanations were given? Would you amend your statement to say that understanding is the result not only of practice but of correct teaching and explanations? Practice and accomplishment do not exist in a vacuum, IMO.

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-01-2005, 10:40 AM   #46
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Re: Tanden vs. one point

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
From what I understand, Tohei sensei uses a definition of "one point" (seika no itten, I assume), which is quite his own - or at least far from the traditional meaning of tanden, the center.
Actually, and I haven't looked in a while but I think I remember fairly well, the original use of "one point" (Craig is indicating something new may have transpired) was very much in line with the traditional usage in relation to "dan tien". There is a theoretical "point" at the center of the dantien, but not all views of the dantien subscribe to that viewpoint. In his earlier books, particularly when he described this "point", Tohei was pretty clear that he was talking about the dantien. As I've noted in other places you can figuratively "put your dantien" someplace, but it involves force manipulations that someone who really understands can easily describe.
Quote:
Tanden, with its kanji components to be read appx. "the red rice field", is traditionally regarded as a center of great power. Most budo that I know of, traditionally teaches to do all movements with tanden as the base and the "motor".
I think "tan den" is the pronunciation of the words "dan tian" which is the "cinnabar field" (note that cinnabar, mercuric oxide, is red) which refers to a more or less "field of change" or the place where changes take place (cinnabar easily reverts to liquid mercury when heat drives off the oxygen in combination). The "dan tian" has a basis in actual physical fact and can be considered a physical "ball" bounded by the diaphragm, the pelvic floor, the abdominal muscles, and the lower lumbar vertebrae (the "mingmen" area) in the spine. There is a theoretical "point" in the center of that "ball", but to dwell on the "point" too much is to miss the sophiticated development and usage of what the dantien can do, how it does it, etc., IMO.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-01-2005, 10:45 AM   #47
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

I didn't think I was being cryptic. I thought I was being honest.

Central to the concepts of center/centre, dan tien or hara is that it is a person's center of gravity. A beginner is also taught the same idea about one point. However one's center of gravity is on only in the area of the lower abdomen, if they are standing upright. If you change the shape of the body, the center of gravity moves.

This center of gravity is the point that the body will move around. If you change the shape of the body, like leaning forward to tie one's shoe laces, then the center of gravity shifts. This is how parachutists maneuver in free fall. They change the shape of their body, so they can get different rotations or go in a desired direction.

The center of gravity for a given object can be outside of that object. Using the shoe tying example, your center of gravity moves outside your body as you lean forward. This is high school physics.

Traditional eastern concepts about chakra, center, hara or dan tien have been as static points of power. However Koichi Tohei is not a traditionalist. The way he presents his concept of one point is psychological. It is a place you can focus your mind. However you can focus your mind anywhere inside or outside your body.

This is the source of much confusion. For a traditionalist who understands the concepts of chakra, center, hara or dan tien, K . Tohei's idea of one point seems similar to traditional teachings, but it is not. That is why Mike is talking about points of power, while Craig is talking about awareness.

Clear as mud?

Last edited by tedehara : 06-01-2005 at 10:55 AM.

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Old 06-01-2005, 11:06 AM   #48
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Central to the concepts of center/centre, dan tien or hara is that it is a person's center of gravity.
I disagree with you. Although a person's center of gravity is generally in that area, the center of gravity, as you have noted below, is a relative thing. I've never heard a serious discussion about the dantien in which it being the "center of gravity" was of primary importance or central to the concept, frankly.
Quote:
This center of gravity is the point that the body will move around. If you change the shape of the body, like leaning forward to tie one's shoe laces, then the center of gravity shifts. This is how parachutists maneuver in free fall. They change the shape of their body, so they can get different rotations or go in a desired direction.

The center of gravity for a given object can be outside of that object. Using the shoe tying example, your center of gravity moves outside your body as you lean forward. This is high school physics.
Not only is it high-school physics, it is also beside the point, if you'll pardon the pun.
Quote:
Traditional eastern concepts about chakra, center, hara or dan tien have been as points of power. However Koichi Tohei is not a traditionalist. The way he presents his concept of one point is psychological. It is a place you can focus your mind. However you can focus your mind anywhere inside or outside your body.
I can focus my mind on the rings of Saturn, but it doesn't do anything, so I would ask that you clarify your use of the term "anywhere". I can also, by using my mind, effect physical changes in various locations (in my body; outside my body if I am touching some portion of that place "outside").

Insofar as Koich Tohei not being a traditionalist, certainly he is or he wouldn't be using the term "ki" and all its attendant terminlogy, usages, and demonstrations. What Tohei does is take the "ki" that was already a part of Aikido, add a lot of self-help psychology, etc., and turn it into a quasi-religion. He's not the first person to make ki into a quasi-religion, BTW. It's simply a variation of a theme that is encountered in other Asian countries, including India.
Quote:
This is the source of much confusion. For a traditionalist who understands the concepts of chakra, center, hara or dan tien, K . Tohei's idea of one point seems similar to traditional teachings, but it is not. That is why Mike is talking about points of power, while Craig is talking about awareness.
I can pretty easily establish that chakra's are "points of power" and that the "dan tian" is also a "point of power" and that the concept derives originally from India. I'll be happy to do so, if you'd like. In other words, I won't just assert things or speak cryptically ... and I'm asking you and Craig, if you really understand these things, to try and explain a few simple concepts that have been brought up by your own declarative statements.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:07 AM   #49
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

That was an awesome post, Ted!

I think we learn things on all levels, but are mainly aware of the levels we tend to trust the most. So, I'm sure that Tohei sensei learned on the body skill level, but felt he made the most break-through type progress on the phychological level and so focused on teaching that way. This kind of thing happens all of the time in all sorts of ways. I think that's pretty much the lesson I'm getting from aikido these days - is that it's about building trust in all sorts of things both internal and external.

Rob

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Old 06-01-2005, 02:10 PM   #50
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Re: A Word of Concern to all Aikidoka...

Howdy, folks. A long time lurker here on these forums, with hardly a post to my name. Just thought I'd try my hand at chiming in.

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Ki tests are about testing a person's state of mind at that moment.
Quote:
then Mike Sigman wrote:
Really? You test a "state of mind"? How do you do that? Do you do it in a way that involves physical testing of some sort?
I'm guessing you already know the answer Mike Yes. The famous "ki test," for lack of a better description, is on the surface a physical one. And as I think you already know (since I've heard you explain in your own words in other threads) the test is not given with strength, but with a relaxed body. Only the weight of the person's arm giving the test (more or less), is needed for optimal biofeedback (at least as I understand it). As it was explained to me, we cannot directly "touch" the mind. We are, however, able to test the body and attempt to become a mirror of the mind with which we are testing. So if the person receiving the test's mind is calm, then the push, or ki test, will have no effect. If the person has any desire to push back or to become passive, then the person will be moved or become tense.

Of course, as has been mentioned, for a standing test ... to help calm the mind, one can focus on the one point in the lower abdomen. If one is sitting cross legged, then one would perhaps focus on the one point existing on one of the ankles or below it. From this position, a ki test could then be applied while the person leans back, while focusing on the one point moving out further in front.

I think I'll stop there. Writing is not my strong point, and I'm not even sure if what I've mentioned is even approaching answering the question asked. Or maybe I've just repeated what's already been said. In any case, I'll wait for Craig and/or Ted's replies.

thanks,
Adam
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