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Old 05-26-2005, 11:52 PM   #1
feck
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Freaky! Extending Ki.

Hi people,

Ki Extension is to me alien at present, having only been training for 7 months and now suffering with knee injury and taking anything up to a year before i return to practice.

I do believe in Ki and extending it, but as of yet have not really experiance anything dramatic in this area. I believe in both its destructive and healing properties, but again have experianced neither first hand.

A few yeas ago i witnessed first hand at a Chi-kung class, the instructor making a student fall down on to a chair by extending their chi into the student. At the time I did'nt believe what i was seeing and put it down to flashy salesmanship by the instructor hoping to recruit new students. Since then i have seen and heard many other amazing feats (believable or not I do not know) that dealt with similar techniques. One involved a master Chi practionar manipulating Chi in such a way that people standing behind partition would collapse or be knocked over. Some felt there legs give way, while others felt liked they had been pushed or smacked in the chest. I have heard tales where master's can rupture vessels and internal organs as well as heal injury's.

I've heard of the CIA investigating and practising similar techniques that utilize this form of energy to kill people or influence general health in remote targets.

My question is this, seeing as Ki, Chi, Qi, prana and other forms of energy explaination are all the same thing, has anyone out there experianced anything like this from an Aikido perspective. Now i know that there have been some clear studies done from a healing angle using Ki or Kiatsu, but has anyone experianced or heard of stories relating to Ki being used to knock people over or even harm them.

Do you believe in these stories?, have you had anything like this done to you and how does it feel?.

thanks

feck
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Old 05-27-2005, 01:10 AM   #2
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Re: Extending Ki.

no and no.

unless you have felt/experienced this yourself, I would take it with a boulder of salt.

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Old 05-27-2005, 06:27 AM   #3
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Re: Extending Ki.

Agreed with Craig. Ki is a measureable, useable phenomena; what exactly it is is anyone's guess.
But whatever it is; it ain't what they do in 'Dragonball Z'.

My personal take on it is it's two things combined: 1) the focussing of intent or will along a specific path (i.e. 'extending ki to the wall'). 2) the physiological effect of a psychological state (i.e. Unbendable Arm - by visualizing ki extending out the arm, one uses only the muscles one needs to hold it steady; rather then whole muscle groups acting against one another).
Right or wrong; I dunno but I'm gonna wait for shodan before I start practicing throwing ki-balls.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 05-27-2005, 09:12 AM   #4
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Re: Extending Ki.

I'm with Craig and Dave on this one.
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Old 05-27-2005, 09:17 AM   #5
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
Darren Paul wrote:
..My question is this, seeing as Ki, Chi, Qi, prana and other forms of energy explaination are all the same thing, has anyone out there experianced anything like this from an Aikido perspective...
I was at a seminar with the late Simcox Sensei. He had a white belt sit in a seiza position. He began moving his hands about the front part of the student's body without touching the student. Soon, the student began moving around. Finally the student fell off to one side. The student resumed sitting seiza and again he was lead to the ground/side.

My chief instructor was talking about taking up slack and feeling an empathy for your partner/opponent. Then he remarked, "This is more than just physical." Then he had me stand several feet away from him on his left side. He faced forward and I was to attack yokomen from the side by stepping forward. He got into a judo crouch, he used to study judo before aikido, and relaxed.

When I raised my hand to attack, he said, "Now!". He could preceive my attack from my intention/ki extension. I tried to attack several times, but he always knew when.

Skeptically, I wondered if he could see me move. However that would almost impossible since we were at right angles to each other. At the most, I was riding at the very edge of his peripheral vision. I also thought that maybe he could hear me move. But I know that he is deaf in his left ear and that was the side he had me attack from.

These are both extreme examples of ki extension. Both individuals are highly experienced and are chief instructors. These are not things that are normally demonstrated. In all the years I've known my chief instructor, he's only done this once.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 05-27-2005, 09:24 AM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: Extending Ki.

The problem with ki/qi is that it's really an amalgam of phenomena which sometimes are used together, but some of which can be stand-alone. There is a *part* of ki/qi that has to do with "magnetic feelings" and being able to project those feelings to a limited degree. David Eisenberg wrote a book called "Encounters with Qi" in which he described some of the various qi phenomena he encountered in China. (David Oschman makes a study of this, as does Elmer Greene of the Meininger Institute)

To make a long story short, Eisenberg admitted that he could "feel something" from a qigong master behind him... but it didn't make him do anything. There's an element of suggestion to this part of ki/qi and it is a tenuous effect that seems to have little or very limited application, although a lot of people use it dramatically with the very suggestible people who often volunteer for these things. As a focus in martial arts, I'd suggest dropping it and concentrating on the functionally useful.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-27-2005, 10:17 AM   #7
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Re: Extending Ki.

Oops. Meant to add... this sort of ki/qi phenomenon isn't the one usually referred to as "extending ki". It's more the "external ki" or something along those lines. In Chinese, it's referred to as "emitted qi", although some people mistakenly refer to it as "lin kong jin". "Lin Kong Jin" is actually meant to be controlling another person with a feint, etc., as in the "ki throws" O-Sensei did.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 05-27-2005, 03:18 PM   #8
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
But whatever it is; it ain't what they do in 'Dragonball Z'.
Of course it is! If you send me 100$ I'll send you my whole DVD set (200$ value) about how to create ki blasts just like in the worst anime ever created!

*waits for money*

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:55 PM   #9
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What works

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Skeptically, I wondered if he could see me move. However that would almost impossible since we were at right angles to each other. At the most, I was riding at the very edge of his peripheral vision. I also thought that maybe he could hear me move.
I am reminded of an episode of my early years in aikido, with Ichimura sensei. He faced me to do chudan tsuki, and for me to do a taisabaki evasive move - and he said that I should close my eyes.

He had a mighty tsuki, so I got nervous, to say the least. I had to obey, though, and managed to avoid his tsuki.

"You see it's possible," he said.
"But I heard you coming," I protested.
Ichimura sensei frowned.
"It worked, didn't it?"

Anyway, is quite real and essential in . That's why it's one of the words in the name of our Martial art. You don't need to explain it, for it to work. I like to call it the ether of intention, but that's just words. Apply its principles, and your aikido will improve. Avoid it altogether, and your aikido will go into a halt.

Extending ki, you can also call extending your awareness. Words, words, words, as Hamlet said. But he also said: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-28-2005, 01:19 PM   #10
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Re: Extending Ki.

Stefan, I agree with your post, however you are talking about extending ki in quite a different way than I believe the originator of this post was talking about.

I believe that the energy prevades all of us and we are interconnected, therefore it is possible to affect someones ki from afar, we do it everyday! It can even be done through the computer!

However, to me, there is a big difference in the subtlies of this than "throwing KI" and knocking someone over.

As Mike Sigman pointed out, i believe, suggestibility plays a big role in thhis process. Is that KI? I think so, but I believe it to be a much different mechanic than a "ball of energy" being "thrown".
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Old 05-28-2005, 01:27 PM   #11
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Re: Extending Ki.

Here's my two cents on everything I know about ki.

From observation + minor experience, Ki is not one thing per se. It seems to have a heat element (hot palms) and an electrical element (I have seen a hand full of people who can touch you and shock the begeezes out of you). It appears that it has something to do with the body's nervous system (neurotransmitters) and muscles and endocrine system (hormones).

I've experienced a little bit of the healing when my wrist was tweaked pretty bad before from repeated sankyo. It felt a bit like my joints were wrapped in heat.

The only real demonstrations I've seen were 1. my wrist being "healed" (it stopped hurting and felt better) 2. tai chi master shocking someone 3. sokumen irimi nage, lit. energy throw, being done with NO physical contact

the blindfolded things are pretty cool, but blind people can do stuff like that. I've heard that when you reach a certian level of experience with blindfolded practice you get to the point where you can feel the body heat from another individual and/or feel the aircurrents they make when they move.

what it actually is or how you use it is anyones guess at the moment, but it seems to have something to do with human anatomy/physiology.
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Old 05-28-2005, 02:12 PM   #12
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Re: Extending Ki.

I believe as soon as you start trying to frame it into what it is or isn't you have lost the concept. Certainly you are entitled to interpret based on your own experiences. It is not for me to say it did or did not happen.

Keep this in mind, why limit yourself to the mechanical aspects of human anatomy/physiology?

Energy or KI prevades all things. So it has much more meaning than a physical manifestation and a literal interpretation.

I'd personally focus on not so much trying to figure it out, than to simply experience it and learn.
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Old 05-28-2005, 02:58 PM   #13
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Stefan, I agree with your post, however you are talking about extending ki in quite a different way than I believe the originator of this post was talking about.
I believe that the energy prevades all of us and we are interconnected, therefore it is possible to affect someones ki from afar, we do it everyday! It can even be done through the computer!
However, to me, there is a big difference in the subtlies of this than "throwing KI" and knocking someone over.
As Mike Sigman pointed out, i believe, suggestibility plays a big role in thhis process. Is that KI? I think so, but I believe it to be a much different mechanic than a "ball of energy" being "thrown".
Dear Kevin,
I thank you for your wise words. Yes, that which I call has nothing to do with balls of energy and knocking people over. I feel the same way you do, as far as I understand: it's like an ether we share - also through a computer. A benevolent ether, one can say, encouraging playing and dancing with it, because it is by nature playful and dancing.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-29-2005, 03:34 PM   #14
Mike Sigman
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
Yes, that which I call has nothing to do with balls of energy and knocking people over. I feel the same way you do, as far as I understand: it's like an ether we share - also through a computer. A benevolent ether, one can say, encouraging playing and dancing with it, because it is by nature playful and dancing.
Hi Stefan:

The problem is not the mysteriousness of ki... it is more the problem that that word "ki" was used as an umbrella-term that covered "unknown forces". So if you move an opponent with psychology, that is ki. If you generate a "magnetic feeling" in Reiki, that is ki. If you are full of energy because you ate a good breakfast, that is ki. If a child is stronger than most other children his age, that is because of ki. If you feel more energy in a hyperbaric chamber, that is ki. If a magician tells you what card you are holding in your hand, that is because of his ki. And so on. It's not so much that "ki permeates the universe" as much as "all unknown forces were explained as aspects of ki". There are indeed some interesting phenomena that are called "ki", but it's sometimes hard to separate out the really interesting ones because the work "ki" was used to explain so darned many things.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-29-2005, 04:06 PM   #15
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So many ki

Yes, Mike,

It's a jungle Not to mention in how many ways it has been interpreted outside of the Far East traditions.

I have studied the concept some, also comparing it with similar concepts in other cultures. Such a term, used for some or other kind of life force, also related to air, breathing, wind, you find in many traditions in the world. Prana in India, pneuma i Greece, ruah in Semitic traditions, and so forth.

I guess that at the bottom of it, they deal with the old mysteries of what is the difference between being alive and being dead (and what happens to that which made someone alive, when he has died), what makes man and animals able to move, and what makes them will to move, et cetera.

has an interesting etymology in its kanji, consisting of the sign for vapor/fume/air and that for rice. Boiling rice. To anyone in China and Japan it's a very relevant symbol of life energy. You gotta eat.
You could also call it a symbol for that in the air, which you need to stay alive.

That would be oxygen, of course. It's just a few hundred years, since it was discovered in Europe. Before that discovery, it would be most reasonable to imagine some life energy hidden in the air - actually, it would be quite accurate, although not expressed in scientific terms.

Sorry, I digress...
Anyway, is in the core of aikido, and maybe one's understanding of ki develops just like aikido as a whole does: by training.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-29-2005, 04:42 PM   #16
Mike Sigman
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Re: So many ki

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote:
Yes, Mike,

It's a jungle Not to mention in how many ways it has been interpreted outside of the Far East traditions.

I have studied the concept some, also comparing it with similar concepts in other cultures. Such a term, used for some or other kind of life force, also related to air, breathing, wind, you find in many traditions in the world. Prana in India, pneuma i Greece, ruah in Semitic traditions, and so forth.
Yes, and some of these are directly related. The problem is that all these terms reflect ancient attempts to explain how things work.... and yet none of these explanations were sustainable truths as man's knowledge progressed, regardless of whether such terms were used in olden times.
Quote:
I guess that at the bottom of it, they deal with the old mysteries of what is the difference between being alive and being dead (and what happens to that which made someone alive, when he has died), what makes man and animals able to move, and what makes them will to move, et cetera.
A mountain can have ki. A place can have ki. It is not always about life and death.
Quote:
has an interesting etymology in its kanji, consisting of the sign for vapor/fume/air and that for rice. Boiling rice. To anyone in China and Japan it's a very relevant symbol of life energy. You gotta eat.
You could also call it a symbol for that in the air, which you need to stay alive.
Or it could simply be the symbol for pressure. Like the pressure from breathing. How pressure and strength work together in the universe. Not surprisingly, it is common to refer to ki as "air pressure" in a number of instances. Without air pressure you can die, of course. If your pressure is adequate, you don't get diseases very easily. There are a number of approaches, I think.
Quote:
Anyway, is in the core of aikido, and maybe one's understanding of ki develops just like aikido as a whole does: by training.
I agree with that, more or less. However, as is evident from the huge number of people currently doing very external and incomplete arts (of the ones that use ki), years of practice doesn't necessarily give one complete understanding. I.e., just training isn't everything. It's an interesting discussion and it relates back to a previous discussion of why so much information is not shown, IMO.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-01-2005, 10:10 AM   #17
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Extending Ki.

I just want to share what I think about Ki.
Ki does exists, but it's not this "energy", or mystical power, one can generate and direct at will, jedi style. If that were the case, just learning this would make you invincible and no martial art techniques would be necessary.
I guess, we all have seen this masters who knock people out by extending energy, but they always train some kind of martial art, why?, if they can knock out people with ki, that would be the ultimate martial art.
Or other people that put spears in their throats and don't get hurt.
They say they can extend their ki, chi, etc, or place it anywhere in their bodies like a shield... but have u ever seen them putting a spear in their eye and push? of course not, because they would wind up with the spear stuck in their brains.
then, what is ki, well what I thinks is that it is not this magical energy, I think ki is an state of mind/body/spirit readiness that comes when one is tuned with a particular situation, from a defense situation to playing baseball, cooking, etc....
what I mean is that when you have all your senses focused in an specific situation, your mind focused, and your spirit focused, the result is an state of readiness that allows you to react more efficiently to that situation.
well, now I think I have to explain what I understand for body, mind and spirit.
body is easy to understand, body is all the physical part that make us 9i.e. head, arms, eyes, hart, brain, etc). With our body we use are sense to get information from the world around us, for example, if a huge guy throws a punch at you, you use your eyes to see it. as simple as that.
mind for me is the analytical capacity of the brain, and the response it brings to a stimulus. in the same example, if somebody punches you, the brain will Analise the direction, speed, etc, and suggest a reaction or response.
Spirit, is maybe a little tricky, by spirit I don' mean this energy that lives when we die, and goes to heaven, sorry I'm an atheist, I don't believe those thing,...for me spirit is the way one person faces a situation, in the same example this huge guy punches you, you use your eyes to see the blow coming (body), Analise the situation/danger/response (mind), now you can get scared, close your eyes and ask for mercy (bad spirit) or get scared but confront the situation and defend yourself even though he could hurt you (good spirit)
well that's just my opinion

Bratzo A. Barrena
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Old 06-01-2005, 10:59 AM   #18
vincelawrence
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Smile Re: Extending Ki.

Hi
I have been practicing Aikido for 3 years and belong to the Ki federation of great Britain. As I was 42 when I started I found it very hard at first to understand what Ki was, however now I feel I have a small understanding. I have been to many seminars with 8th and 9th Dans and have seen and experienced first hand the "feeling" (for that is what it is) that ki produces. It can vary from person to person but what each individual must do is learn to trust their own inner feelings. The best way to explain ki is the same feeling you get when you are in a crowded room, the hair on your arms and back of your neck starts to stand on end and you instinctively feel that someone is looking at you, you turn around and sure enough there is someone staring at you. This feeling needs to be cultivated so you can recognize when someone has bad intentions towards you, allowing you that split second to react ahead of your "aggressor".
I have done many exercises where I have my back to a partner who then points (extending Ki) at a part of your back and you have to recognize which part. In the early days the mainly fails, but as your awareness develops this becomes more accurate. This useful to both as it teaches extending ki and recognizing ki.
If you then use the same principles whilst performing your moves, the moves will become more powerful and less of a wrestling match.

This is only my point of view, but I have seen ki in action and the fact that a small person can immobilize a large person using ki but cannot, using physical strength is enough to make me a believer.

Last edited by vincelawrence : 06-01-2005 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:24 AM   #19
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Re: Extending Ki.

If I had a nickel for every story I heard about "ki" power. Persionally, I think there is value to a ki story like there is value to a fairy tale. Somewhere there is a kernel of truth that is beneficial. I do not believe that energy can be projected from afar, nor can it be focused into physical form. I do believe that ki is an extension of our sensory perceptions, and some individuals have learned to develop those sensory perceptions that they could anticpate movement, or induce a reaction without moving, or sense blood flow or tissue inflamation to reduce swelling on a bruise.

I have already heard it several times, but just to recap: the concept of energy forces is thousands of years old, and not limited to the islands of Japan. Every day we (Americans) use phrases like: "staggeringly beautiful," or "breathtaking," or "gut-wretching," to describe the way our body feels when we are exposed to a stimulus. Your body is super computer that gathers incalcuable data every day; scents, images, touch, heat, cold, pain, joy, anxiety. All of this data is processed by your body to adapt to its conditions. Why do you get a "chill" during a scary movie? How can a first kiss make you giddy?

I think there is more to ki than than just energy. I think ki tells us where to go, what to do, and how to act. To qualify that concept would be difficult in the least.
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Old 06-13-2005, 05:07 AM   #20
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The problem with ki/qi is that it's really an amalgam of phenomena which sometimes are used together, but some of which can be stand-alone. There is a *part* of ki/qi that has to do with "magnetic feelings" and being able to project those feelings to a limited degree. SNIP

FWIW

Mike Sigman
MIke,

It seems to be very easy to produce these 'magnetic feelings' by simply standing in a relaxed stance with the spine straight and concentrating the breathing on the dan tien or hara area and moving your hands slowly together and apart. (Or by imagining 'extending ki')

Regarding the 'magnetic feelings' - what's your take on what they are?

Regards,
Bryan
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Old 06-13-2005, 07:10 AM   #21
Mike Sigman
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
Bryan Bowman wrote:
It seems to be very easy to produce these 'magnetic feelings' by simply standing in a relaxed stance with the spine straight and concentrating the breathing on the dan tien or hara area and moving your hands slowly together and apart. (Or by imagining 'extending ki')

Regarding the 'magnetic feelings' - what's your take on what they are?
I don't know for sure everything that's involved, but there are some western studies involved in measuring how much of an actual magnetic field humans can generate at will (the fascia is credited with doing this). That would be one factor to look at.

Another factor to look at is that the hands, face, etc., are highly vascularized and innervated... i.e., it would be easy to induce a "feeling" in these areas because they're so sensitive. Ever notice a magnetic feeling between your knees, for example?

A further consideration is that the central nervous system is complex and you may "feel" things that aren't there.... there are a number of demonstrations and tests showing how easily the CNS is fooled in relation to the hands and arms, etc.

Still another consideration is the element of psychology, which has assuredly got some relationship to the preceeding paragraphs' phenomena. The Chinese experts have a broad spectrum of beliefs, but the general consideration is that there is a strong element of "psychological power" involved in a lot of the "magnetic feelings" phenomena. I know of a number of cases of the "magnetic feelings" stuff where someone will swear that they can feel the emanations from another person somewhere nearby.... but those "feelings" never survive double-blind tests. That's why I've caveated that the feelings things have an element of suggestibility, etc., to them in previous posts.

Personally, I suspect there's something interesting there (and I know a few other aspects that are just too lengthy to write out), but my general view is that despite the presence of these feelings, their actual relationship to martial skill, strength, etc., is only tangential, so I've never spent a lot of times working on these things, except in relation to some of the training methods that use them as a side issue. Sometimes when I do workshops (rarely nowadays, since they interfere with my regular life) I'll teach a certain qigong that will bring out these "feelings" in a very focused way, but I only do it as a point of information and to show that anyone can do and feel these things.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:48 AM   #22
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
Ever notice a magnetic feeling between your knees, for example?
No, but then I'm extremely bowlegged...you could probably get a foot ball between my knees even with my ankles touching.

Ron (we now return you...yada yada yada)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-13-2005, 12:43 PM   #23
Michael Neal
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Re: Extending Ki.

* grabs hair and pulls while screaming "make it stop" *
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Old 06-28-2005, 12:22 AM   #24
Tubig
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 90
Australia
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Re: Extending Ki.

A very obvious physical phenomenon and you might laughed at this is aikidokas have hairy wrist. I am of Asiatic and Spanish origin, and my family and relatives are not hairy or have hairy wrist. I have noticed that aikidokas that trained the longest have hairier wrists (even the ladies in the dojo).

I spoke to my human anatomy and physiology professor at the university of Sydney and he could not explain it. His wild guess was because we (aikidokas) get grabbed at the wrist more frequently than the average person, the circulation around the are is better, hence it stimulates the growth of hair. But he could not explain why that same theory does not work on bald headed men.

I spoke to my Shiatsu practioner (which is also a accupuncture practioner) and her explaination was because there are a lot of exchange in ki at that point coming from differrent people and hence sources, the life force stimulates the growth of hair, the life force stimulates and revitalizes that point, hence good and solid bones, stonger muscles, flexible and thick joints. The exchange of ki is so strong that one can issolate the area visually.

I guess the latter explaination is good news to the power of ki extention, but it just leaves us aikidokas with a cosmetic problem. Bloody Hairy wrists.
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:50 AM   #25
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
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Re: Extending Ki.

Quote:
Cromwell Salvatera wrote:
A very obvious physical phenomenon and you might laughed at this is aikidokas have hairy wrist.
Hmmmmm. <<looks at hairy palms, sighs, makes note to self>>
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