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Old 11-03-2004, 12:09 PM   #76
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Sara,

your post hit right before mine.

KI is neither evil or good....it just exist.

It may be hard for you to understand if you look at things from a dualistic standpoint that everything is either good or evil.

Many of us believe there is other options. In western terms KI might be the point where Good/Evil meet. (Yin/Yang) in eastern terms.

When it becomes good and bad mostly personal in nature and when/how you apply it.

If I use my "energy" or KI to do harm or hurt you then it is evil. If I use it for goodness and compassion then it is good.

Nothing more, nothing less.

KI is a eastern concept. It is a concept, not a scientific reality. If you were to equate it to a scientific prinicple it would be equal to energy.

I personally wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about it. But, respectfully, it seems to be very important to you from a religious/spiritual point of view so I completely respect your seriousness of inquiry.

The tough part of this is, that no matter how many people you ask on this board, no one will be able to give you the answer you are looking for. Only you will have to turn to yourself and your spiritual beliefs and determine what is right for you.

Since you draw your basic guiding principles from the bible, I believe you might want to figure out how to interpret KI bibically and turn to your spiritual/church leader for guidance. Or there might be other Christians around that have struggled with this concept that might be able to discuss this with you.
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Old 11-03-2004, 12:23 PM   #77
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Jo, My point exactly (in the other thread). Really what difference does it make what I think, or you think?

There are many different ways to experience things and different paradigms. To me, it is not important for another to understand or embrace my experience....only to embrace their own.

The important part is that each of us is exploring and seeking for answers through them.

Sara, you are correct to ask the questions, it means you are thinking about the concepts and exploring them...that is a good thing. This is how you learn.

In the end, it will be up to you to make up your own mind what KI means to you. It really is different things to different people and that is really okay. There is no right answer to what KI is.

One thing that troubles me about Western Philosophy and logic is that we as westerners really must have empircal evidence or proof...we like things that are black and white.

Just like you said in the other thread, Sara, like the bible some things you just have to have faith and there is no empirical evidence.

Gravity is a good example. It is probably as close to a universal truth as you can get on earth. Everyone is affected by it, but everyone experiences it differently depending on your background, knowledg, and situation. Your experiences sitting in your chair will be much different than your experience falling from 14,000 feet!

Thanks for another reply. I mean, I want to believe that ki can be whatever I make it ... but I don't really see how I can. I mean, supposedly I can have my own reality of what ki is and you can have yours ..and they're both equally ok. Would both our realities equally be real? If so, how can two contradicting realities really exist at the same time? Then what you said about us making things so black and white seemed to make sense (how we always want to use logic or proof) , but then ..if you refute logic with relativism, doesn't it lose its relative status?


Sarah
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Old 11-03-2004, 12:41 PM   #78
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

I used to want to prove everything in life (I am a scientist by training/schooling). As I have gotten older I have "let go" of needing to do so. Somethings simply just exist.

We all have our own realities. That is unrefutable. and they are equally real for both. A blind person cannot see the color of the sky, but the concept of the sky is no less real for them than it is for me, and they might not be able to experience it in the same way...so there are two realities, and they may be contradictory.

The issue I think you really have is judgemental in nature. Not that we have two different realities or interpretations, but which one is correct. I say they both are.

If I may be presumptious, I believe your conflict arises in the fact that you believe that dogmatically from a biblical perspective that there can be only one truth...hence your struggle.

I cannot say that you are incorrect in your beliefs.

My own personal opinion is that the struggle you are facing is a big part of the world's problems today. Some people think that they have all the truths and that others that hold different opinions or have different belief systems contrary are wrong. Dualistic belief is what causes this conflict. Some how we must resolve this by simply accepting that it is OKAY to have different realities, beliefs, and values. It is possible for things to co-exist.

I am not implying that we are condeming anyone or any belief, so don't take my comments as directed at you. I completely understand that you are simply seeking to understand! The fact that you are seeking means your are open minded and looking to understand!

Also remember, O'Sensei said that there is room for all religions in aikido. Jesus said there is room for all in his house.

I would recommend you read some of Joseph Campbell's books on mythology, religion etc. They are non-dogmatic and are a sociological point of view on human's, religion, and the interpretation of this. He goes a long way to explaining how all religions, spiritual practices, and basic human value systems are similar.

I am sure if you looked through the bible you'd find ways to interpret things and even find analogies for KI etc.
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Old 11-03-2004, 11:44 PM   #79
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Sarah Eliz* wrote:
Thanks for another reply. I mean, I want to believe that ki can be whatever I make it ... but I don't really see how I can.
Sarah
Okay, this 'Ki' thing is way simpler and way more complicated than most people want to believe. Part of the problem from a Christian point of view is the tendency of some (most?) Aikido practitioners to use the words 'Ki' and 'energy' interchangeably. This gives the impression that they believe Ki is supernatural.

I happen to believe that Ki is not supernatural and that it isn't energy either. There is certainly energy associated with Ki, but it appears (to me) to be nothing more than the efficient use of muscles and bone structures (alright, alright, it's more complicated than that, but that's why the 'Ki' concept is useful). The other aspects of Ki are much slipperier and, IMO, more interesting.

The way Ki was originally presented to me is that it is a phenomenon that occurs when your mind, body and spirit are perfectly coordinated. In recent years I mostly just hear mind and body because the schools don't want to be thought of as teaching religions (rightly so, but dropping the spirit part still feels subtly wrong to me).

So, to me, Ki is about energy and timing and relationships and intention and psychology and a whole lot of other stuff.

And it's as natural as breathing.

When we develop Ki we don't tap into some new force that we've never had access to before. We learn to manipulate the factors that come into play to create Ki and make the Ki we already have stronger. The analogy has issues, but you could look at it as developing an unseen muscle.

And Martial Artists do not have a monopoly on Ki. Ever seen a professional athlete pull off a great move as though it was easy? That's Ki. As a musician I regularly find that my playing improves when I'm perfectly coordinated in my mind, body and spirit. That's Ki.

My personal favorite in describing an instance of "naturally occuring" Ki is the terrier in the bathtub. Suddenly this five-pound dog becomes astoundingly strong and slippery. He knows just how to apply his strenght to maximize the difficulty in getting him into that tub. That's Ki.

If you want to go into all kinds of supernatural mumbo jumbo to explain Ki, that's certainly your prerogative. Me, I've decided that I can't completely understand how the various factors that make up Ki can come together in exactly the way they do, but I do understand the individual factors on their own.

What I tell my students is that asking "What is the essential nature of Ki?" is just the wrong question. A much better question is to ask what is the nature of your Ki. Since Ki is about so many things, your Ki is not my Ki and is not anybody else's Ki. Your intention is different than mine. Your body structures are different than mine. The relationships you have with other people are different than mine.

But Ki is still Ki and this is not a contradiction.

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Old 11-04-2004, 05:00 PM   #80
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
We all have our own realities. That is unrefutable..
I think I found something that refutes it ... wanna see? It refuted it for me, but then again, that doesn't count since I never agreed to begin with, huh You know tons about it all and believe it fully ...so wanna see what I found? Maybe it will prove it wrong..?





~*~Sarah
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Old 11-04-2004, 05:16 PM   #81
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I used to want to prove everything in life (I am a scientist by training/schooling). As I have gotten older I have "let go" of needing to do so. Somethings simply just exist.
But just because you've let go of the need to prove everything ... can't proof and truth still be important? I mean, westerners used truth and logic to put man on the moon. Don't you think all of our little truths are based on one main truth? Like there's more to your life? Some things do simply just exist, but it doesn't mean there isn't a truth. It just means we don't as humans have the proof. But there are hints ... and suppose there is one way to know the truth of life? (I believe I do ..) Would you want to know, or at least learn more about the supposed one way rather than settle for "some things we can't know.."?
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:31 PM   #82
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Hi Sarah,

The idea that any one single religious organization can monopolize the truth seems strange to me. Why would anyone be so arrogant as to shun many centuries of human spiritual evolution and development? Is it because it may not be mentioned in the Bible? I've noticed that some Christians seem to be a little intolerant of other spiritual view points.

I, as a devoted Aikido practitioner, feel obliged to live in harmony with all of humankind, regardless of their religious viewpoint. I certainly don't need to force this view onto anyone else.

I am happy that you have found salvation in Jesus. This is a good thing. For those of us that choose not to do the same, but choose a different view, please be tolerant. For me, to practice Aikido is my life's purpose. When I die the universe will take me back.

Happy training to you. Should you choose to train.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:07 PM   #83
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Sara,

I suppose there probably is a truth behind everything. I never denied that. I simply said that I personally do not have a overwhelming need to understand single detail. It simply is not possibly nor is it necessary IHMO. As you have stated earlier, "at some point you must have faith". I don't see where what you or I have said is any different.

What is important more than understanding technicialities is to acheive happiness and peace, IMHO.

If you do study Aikido, one thing that will be frustrating is approaching it as a "technician", that is, trying to understand every position, and every move down to the smallest detail. It is not necessary to understand any thing technical. You simply need to master the principles.

Aikido is more about feeling and experiencing. Through the repetitive process of learning you eventually grow to understand inately what to do. This is why most dojos have a practice of minimal talking.

I have mastered how to use my coffee pot in the morning, but I do not need to understand exactly how it works to use it properly.

To answer your previous question about wanting evidence that refutes that two people cannot have two paradigms...not really interesting in picking hairs over a dogmatic difference.

I am not saying your beliefs are not correct, they are correct for you if you believe them. What is important to me is that you find peace and harmony in your beliefs.

I am more interested in celebrating the things we all have in common, and discussing those issues, than to argue and split hair over who is more right.

If I have one criticism of people it is in this area. This mindset is what causes problems, wars, and conflict.

I can tolerate all religious beliefs and Aikido has room for all, however, the more important question to ask is "do you have room for me and aikido in your values"?
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Old 11-06-2004, 09:30 AM   #84
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Kevin, or "kev" as we would say in Australia,

I believe you are correct in your request from Sarah. It is important that we have tolerance for each other, and our differing spiritual beliefs.

Sarah needs to spend as much time pondering the truth as the rest of us! I wish that reading the Bible was all that was needed to live a wholesome life. I wish it held the complete truth. Many Christians think this is so. Some of the greatest sinners I have seen have been Christians. Why don't more Christians strive for peace, strive to copy Jesus?

In time people will see that to be a religious fundamentalist is to incite violence.

Aikido is about peace at all cost.

God has put us here to fulfill a clear purpose. To live a life that is anything less than harmonious and peaceful will surely end in tears.(IMHO).

I believe strongly that if Jesus were alive today he would be deeply sorrowed by what his so called followers are doing. (IMHO).

As an Aikidoka, (a conservative/fundamentalist Aikidoka) I feel that peace is peace. If a person is rendered stricken by their belief system to the point that they cannot perceive the common thread that unites all humanity then they should be left to flounder, or shown the way.(Aikido is such a way)

I have seen clearly defined in this world 2 types of Christian. The "eye for an eye" Christian, and the "turn the other cheek" Christian. Only one of these is a follower of Jesus.

It is important that people who do not strive for confluence and harmony be left behind. I wish that all people on earth would strive for peace at all cost. I may seem militant and fundamentalist in my statements, but this is so. Peace is peace, not war. All of humanity was created by God. It is not up to humanity to decide who is good and evil. Only God.

God is the only Judge.

Peace be with you.
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Old 11-06-2004, 09:57 AM   #85
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

My wife calls me Kev too!

Anyway, nice post. I wish I could post in so few words and get my point across like you have!

I tend to be cautious of fundamental thinking, but as you have shown me, I probably am fundamental in my own ways towards the concept of peace.
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Old 11-06-2004, 01:57 PM   #86
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
I believe you are correct in your request from Sarah. It is important that we have tolerance for each other, and our differing spiritual beliefs.
First of all, I have "tolerance" for all belief systems and religions. If I am to be a true Christian, which is what I strive to be, I believe Christianity to be true and that Jesus was not a liar or a lunatic when he claimed to be the only way to get to the Father. As a true Christian, I am called to at least present the truth. I am not called to force it. Jesus even taught that if someone does not accept these truths, dust off your feet and move on.(He also taught that when people reject His truths, they are rejecting Jesus .. not the Christian) All I have been doing is presenting and persuading; not forcing. (the same way you all have been trying to persuade me) I have not been mean about it, and I could never force anyone here to believe as I do anyway, nor would I want to. We've both been persuading back and forth, nothing rude, mean, or forceful in my opinion.

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Sarah needs to spend as much time pondering the truth as the rest of us! I wish that reading the Bible was all that was needed to live a wholesome life. I wish it held the complete truth. Many Christians think this is so. Some of the greatest sinners I have seen have been Christians. Why don't more Christians strive for peace, strive to copy Jesus?.
You sure don't seem very tolerant of Sarah ... telling her what she needs to do. :-/ Maybe, deep down, do you want an absolute truth? Do you wonder if the Bible actually is absolute truth? You say you wish reading the Bible was all that was needed to live a wholesome life. I think Christians and non-Christians alike can live a wholesome life. And yes, Christians are just as bad of sinners as any non-Christian ...and often times have proved to be worse! We're all sinners.That's why the message of grace in the Bible is so important, and unique from all other religions. We're all sinners in this world, where mankind is going down. By accepting the gift of grace, you can be a "saved sinner". The gift of grace is for anyone willing to accept it .. accept that God supernaturally sent himself to earth in the form of man (Jesus), so he could live the perfect life (being part-God) .. and be our sacrafice (being man as well).

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
Why don't more Christians strive for peace, strive to copy Jesus?.
Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life, as you know. He did claim to be peace. He didn't hang around the Christians of the day as much as he hung around the people of other beliefs. He wanted all "the lost" to know the true way of peace. He claimed to be the way of peace. Jesus accepted all people, and He loved all ....but he continually said "No one man comes to the Father except though me". He wanted all those people to come to the Father. And He said there was ONE way, not many ways depending on what you believe. I am striving to copy Jesus.

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
In time people will see that to be a religious fundamentalist is to incite violence.
Aikido is about peace at all cost.
Yes, violence occurs when one's beliefs are forced upon people. (like when a government decides on a specific religion)
Forcing is not the way of Jesus. Christians may do it, and it is definately always wrong. That's why you can't look at the people (all people do bad things) ..but into the true beliefs. How am I inciting violence? can being about peace "at all costs" also mean avoiding the one truth at all costs?

Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
I believe strongly that if Jesus were alive today he would be deeply sorrowed by what his so called followers are doing. (IMHO).
Really? You think Jesus would be upset with the Christians who proclaim that Jesus was who He said He was? He would be upset with us for spreading His truths (that He is the ONLY way to peace)? The same truths He spread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're against Jesus ...not Christians. (and also against Christians who "force" their beliefs ... and I'm against that too so ..)


Quote:
Kristian Miller-Karlsen wrote:
God is the only Judge.
He definately is.


~Sarah
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Old 11-06-2004, 02:16 PM   #87
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

The following is my response to a post from another thread (is ki bad for you/evil?) which was, for some reason, deleted. It gives further evidence as to why I believe how I do (and that that Bible is in fact the truthful guide book) :


Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Now this is based on many assumptions - 1) That the humans who wrote the manuscripts initially were not in fact blurred by their own lenses to the truth while writing it, 2) That the observer effect did not take place and the stories and words were rewritten as they appeared, unchanged 3) That the linguistic abilities of the translators were able to effectively convey that which was being taught in a foreign place, culture and time.
1) If that's true, we should expect to find lots of mistakes in the Bible, shouldn't we? (ex. the Bible says *and always has* that "the stars are not numerable" ... if the people who wrote the Bible were "blurred" and not guided by the holy spirit, as the Bible teaches, we would not expect them to write this truth that the stars are without number. We would expect them to write what man through the centuries has thought ...that there are less than 10,000 stars. (before the time of Galileo and the telescope) Also, the book of Job says that "..God hung the earth on nothing .." .. other religions and philosophies of the time have had various ideas of what held up the earth. (ideas we laugh at today , but they were serious .. just as serious as the Bible was then and still is )

2) Again, if that were true, I would expect to see errors.

3) You're right.. different translations can have errors. Maybe not major, but errors none-the-less. BUT we can always go back to the copies of the original manuscripts that were written in Hebrew and Greek .. to check out the translations and refine them. As far as copies of manuscripts, there was a segment of Jewish society (the scribes) and it was their purpose to copy the manuscripts faithfully .. and they had special procedures to insure that faithful copies were made. --- this was varified when the dead sea scrolls were found, which are 1,000 years older than the oldest existing manuscripts at that time. (they were exactly the same)




Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
And if there were many ways of removing these lenses, of which the person you are looking at now may present only one, wouldn't you want to have a deeper and broader understanding of the same concept to be able to walk the path with knowledge gained from multiple perspectives?
I haven't always been this strong a Christian. I used to feel a little snobby about accepting only my faith as truth ... even though I still did have pretty good assurance that it was. I definately, definately had doubts (it's okay to doubt, it's how you learn) .. and I looked into other belief systems and religions. I was interested in what others believed and why they did so .. and I actually still am. Everything I studied only made Christianity and the Bible even clearer.

But to answer your question ... no, not really. :-/ According to my beliefs, I have to either fully accept, or fully decline. Jesus either really was the way, or he wasn't. I can't follow every path, or else I'd have to completely disreguard my Christian faith. Believe it or not, I do respect the paths others choose to follow. According to my faith, however, there is only one way ... and I want others to know it. I in no way would force it ... in fact I can't. I attempt to present it in a persuasive manner, but that is all I can and will do. My "guidebook" even agrees that my faith shouldn't be forced ... it says if they do not accept the truth, dust off your feet and move on. I just wanted to let it be known that it is not my motive to "force" any of this on anyone. I am only looking to persuade, as you are me, right?

Christianity is unique ... it stands out from all the other religions and belief systems. All the others focus on "self" in some way or another, while Christianity focuses on salvation though Jesus. Everything else hopes to get to "heaven", be eternally rewarded somehow or achieve peace through themselves ... it's all about self. The Bible is the only religious book that carries the message of the gift of grace.


Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Even in the early stages the Apocripher was decided by a bunch of normal people to be erased from the official writings because they were the "questionable" texts. There is a lot more info out there that makes up the "Bible" that folks are so quick to quote in infallibility.
The Apocripher was not originally in the Jewish Bible, before the time of Christ. It was added after the Roman Cathoic reformation. They should have never been added in the first place because the ancient writings were never biblical texts to begin with. They were only added under Catholic influence.


Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
The question is, is this fear justified or have you been programmed to fear these things for someone else's purpose?
Honestly, do you have fear? Cuz me, it's just my theory, but I think everyone has this fear ... like we're supposed to have this fear ...



<3 Sarah
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Old 11-06-2004, 02:56 PM   #88
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Sara, ...
As you have stated earlier, "at some point you must have faith". I don't see where what you or I have said is any different.
I don't want a fully blinded faith. My faith is based on truths that I know to be true. The Bible is not wrong in any of its provable truths, so that gives me a reason to put my faith in the areas that require my faith. If the Bible were wrong (like actually provably wrong) in even just one area .. I'd probably honestly cry ! .. and then throw away my faith... cuz it would be pointless. What is the basis of your faith?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I have mastered how to use my coffee pot in the morning, but I do not need to understand exactly how it works to use it properly.
I am a creative learner .. and I like to learn through experience, so I understand this. I also know though that in some cases it is important to know how things work. For example, take doing drugs. You can learn how to use them properly, experience the good feeling .. but being completely unaware of what that drug is actually doing to your body (how it's actually working) is gradually killing you.[/quote]

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
To answer your previous question about wanting evidence that refutes that two people cannot have two paradigms...not really interesting in picking hairs over a dogmatic difference.
But can't I just show you? Can't you just tolerate what I've found? Nobody can force you to care about it or anything ... can't I just present it?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I am not saying your beliefs are not correct, they are correct for you if you believe them. What is important to me is that you find peace and harmony in your beliefs.
Now I once presented a "blue sky" analogy, but it was torn apart .. I wasn't very smart. But how about this : Suppose someone is aiming a loaded gun at 2 people. One fully believes that the gun is not loaded, while the other fully believes that it is. If the one believes it's not loaded, fine .. it's true for them. If she finds peace in believing that, good for her. When the gun is fired however, the truth is exposed.


Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I can tolerate all religious beliefs and Aikido has room for all, however, the more important question to ask is "do you have room for me and aikido in your values"?
I have room for everyone, and I care about the beliefs of others. If by that you meant do I have room in my beliefs for all the other ways to peace..? Well, no. I believe Jesus is the only way. If I didn't, I wouldnt be a Christian. I have room to present and share that with others .. and I know some won't accept or care. People have free will for a reason, and I stress again that I couldn't ,and never would if I could, force it. I'm simply presenting, just like you .. and I'm only giving evidence as to why I believe.



<33 Sarah-with-an-h
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:14 PM   #89
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

good analogy about the loaded gun. Really it didn't matter ultimately what she believed, the end result was the she was shot. Kharma in action. That is my point exactly.

What you have to consider is what action put her in front of the gun to begin with. Has nothing to do with beliefs or truths but events that led to the situation.
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:20 PM   #90
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

So if you do not have room for other paths for peace, then until everyone is converted to Christianity or banished from this earth then there can be no peace?

Not saying that you condone war or violence, but this is the exact justification that many societies and religions have used to wage wars on other. Hitler comes to mind.
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Old 11-06-2004, 03:55 PM   #91
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
So if you do not have room for other paths for peace, then until everyone is converted to Christianity or banished from this earth then there can be no peace?

Not saying that you condone war or violence, but this is the exact justification that many societies and religions have used to wage wars on other. Hitler comes to mind.
Hitler decided for himself what he thought to be perfect and true .. and forced that on others. Again, I stress I am not for force. Neither was Jesus, and Christians shouldn't be. (though many tend to be) People bring problems by trying to force such matters .. force goes against the free will we were all given. I don't think there's anything wrong with being persuasive.

Anyway, Hitler's thinking was based on the idea that the world is getting better and so are people. He thought he could speed it up ..eliminate those imperfections and have the perfect human race.

I'm not looking to eliminate anyone ...or change anyone. I mean, I want to try ... and present what I believe to be truth .. but I know some people aren't going to care and I can accept that.

You hope that one day all religions will combine, and be harmonized .. right? Well, true followers of Christ will never go along with that. I dunno about other religions. I know that in Revelations, the Bible talks about people unifying beliefs (in the last days) .. creating a world religion, and the anti-christ. There will always be Christians proclaiming Jesus is the only way. It's like we'll ruin the whole hamonizing religion thing. Do you think it's possible (if the Bible is right in that) that in the end Christians will be "eliminated" because they are the only ones ruining the "peace"? I'm not saying .. I'm just asking what you think :-/

<3 Sarah
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Old 11-06-2004, 04:40 PM   #92
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
The Apocripher was not originally in the Jewish Bible, before the time of Christ. It was added after the Roman Cathoic reformation. They should have never been added in the first place because the ancient writings were never biblical texts to begin with. They were only added under Catholic influence.
Should never have been added? And what exactly qualifies you to make such a statement? Unless my history is mistaken didn't the entire Protestant movement from which all the modern "Christian" sects came have its root in Catholicism?

In the beginning there were claims that the Catholic Church were not following the ways of Christ as written (I can see the truth in that calim). So we get a group of people who have read some secondary sources of information who go to the other extreme of being blinded by the written word.

This is why I maintain that unless you were there when Christ walked the Earth and remember exactly what he said or are in some other form able to experience that level of truth we cannot decide to get all fundamental over the written word, since the written word is not 100% correct (or at least it is very unlikely so). As such, it's veracity is still based in faith and belief. As far as belief goes, see the sky analogy.

The reason this thread and the one on ki is lasting so long is because you believe that the bible is the absolute truth, when many others accept it to be part of the truth but not necessarily the whole and only one. Through your own admission your faith is based on this paradigm - "If the Bible were wrong (like actually provably wrong) in even just one area .. I'd probably honestly cry" . As such you are unable and unwilling to look outside and see anything that exists out of this box as it can surely create some psychological issues regarding your faith. The thing is though, if something is worth strongly believing then its premise can be challenged and it will stand strong imo, so there should be no fear in challenging it. In this same light it is difficult to acknowledge the truth inherent in other religious or spiritual traditions for fear that it may disprove or attempt to challenge what you believe in the book in a way that you cannot handle.

There is nothing wrong with the above of course, it is a primordial aspect of the self preservation instinct, but one needs to know the fullness of the concept before one decides to lay it out for the "persuasion" of others.

The beauty of understanding Christianity (and many other religions) through the life philosophy of Aikido is that the latter often acts as a check system for the former, since the latter exemplifies the way of living that is supposedly espoused by the former.

One of the beatiful aspects of Aikido philosophy is the simple proof and reflections of the universe found in nature. An apt one here is that when we look too closely we in fact see nothing.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-06-2004, 04:57 PM   #93
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
People bring problems by trying to force such matters .. force goes against the free will we were all given. I don't think there's anything wrong with being persuasive.
Lovely grey area ya got there. And exactly where does "being persuasive end" and forcing begin? Is it forcing when I tell you not to come in my house because I don't want your message and you show up next week? That is force imo. So it's all relative. I think I can remember a few persuasive folks through history whose method of persuasion was via the barrel of a gun. They would only get forceful when you resisted their control, but of course the gun is there to remind you.

Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
Anyway, Hitler's thinking was based on the idea that the world is getting better and so are people. He thought he could speed it up ..eliminate those imperfections and have the perfect human race.
Well there's a justification for ethnic cleansing if I ever heard one. Are you German by chance Sarah?.
Just kidding.

Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
Well, true followers of Christ will never go along with that. I dunno about other religions. I know that in Revelations, the Bible talks about people unifying beliefs (in the last days) .. creating a world religion, and the anti-christ.
Again, fundamentalism formed from the fear response seeded by dualistic thinking. Technically, every non-Christian (at least by your standards) religion is already the anti-christ, since they don't accept him as their saviour. Isn't that correct?

Wow.


Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
There will always be Christians proclaiming Jesus is the only way. It's like we'll ruin the whole hamonizing religion thing. Do you think it's possible (if the Bible is right in that) that in the end Christians will be "eliminated" because they are the only ones ruining the "peace"? I'm not saying .. I'm just asking what you think :-
Now I'm confused. I thought you said that if anything was wrong in the bible your faith would be shattered and you'd cry. Now you are questioning the truth in the book of Revelations? Is it true or isn't it?

Hmmm.....

As far as what I think.... well let's keep Aikiweb a G-rated forum huh?

Bless.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-07-2004, 01:24 AM   #94
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

It appears this thread has digressed to the point of "I am right and this is the only way" conversation.

I am not interested in discussing the finer details of dogma as I have said before If it ever turns to "how can we reconcile the world" or "how can a christian understand Aikido and those that study it in the context of their religion" I might be tempted to discuss more.

Sarah, I hope you are able to decide for yourself if KI and Aikido is right for you. No one here that I know of is interested in convincing you that you are wrong or justifing your beliefs, only trying to help you with Aikido.
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Old 11-08-2004, 05:04 AM   #95
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hi folks,

Just wanted to remind people that the topic in this thread is the manners in which aikido and Christianity interact, not on Christianity in general. Just thought I'd steer things back on topic.

Thanks,

-- Jun
One of the questions asked by an early poster (back in 2000) was whether as a Christian he could accept the belief system of aikido.

However, I am doubtful whether aikido actually has a belief system and think rather that what we are talking about is the belief systems of various teachers, including Morihei Ueshiba himself.

One of my teachers was an avowed Shintoist and a fervent supporter of the Japanese emperor system. In accordance with his beliefs he presented aikido as an effective martial art based on respect for the kami, one's ancestors, fellow students. In short there was not really a belief system, as a Christian would understand this.

Another of my teachers was an avowed Buddhist and stressed the importance of Zen for aikido training. When I mentioned Morihei Ueshiba's distaste for zen, he replied that he could not understand O Sensei's lectures when he was a deshi, and came to zen as an effective spiritual substitute, in keeping with a tradition handed down from the days of the samurai. So for my teacher, aikido was a complex preparation for death, as explained in the Hagakure. I recollect having an argument with him at this point and suggesting that he read St John's gospel, for an alternative to the Hagakure. The next time I met him, he took me to meet a Jesuit priest, who was lecturing on St John's gospel at the Buddhist temple he attended.

My present teacher is a typical postwar Japanese, who regards aikido simply as training. All his attention is focussed on technical matters and his aikido seems much closer to Daito-ryu, even though it has become much softer with his advancing age. If you asked him about the belief system of aikido (assuming he understood this concept), I think his reply would be that the techniques should really work and that is all.

Best regards to all,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:33 AM   #96
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Ok ... I have in fact lead this whole thing far from the point of the thread. I just have to defend myself on a few things before I end it.

Well, actually, firstly ...

"Sarah, Thanks for the opportunity to verbalize and express my thoughts...this has been fun!"

you're very welcome, and thank you as well. you all are very smart... this has been a lot of fun in a challenging way.

anyways ...
when I said "If the Bible were wrong (like actually provably wrong) in even just one area .. I'd probably honestly cry" ... I'm sorry I worded it in a way that confused you. The point of my saying that was.. since the Bible has never been proven false (even while people dedicated themselves to proving it so) and it has stood true time and time again, I believe it. I meant if, just if there was ever even one mistake found in the Bible, my faith could possibly be based on a lie. What would be my assurance? I'd have to disreguard everything in the Bible. I so believe the Bible to be true. All I was pointing out is that I have reason to put my faith in Jesus and the Bible. Okay? Point clear now?
.. and don't accuse me of keeping inside my Christian box. I've told you ... I haven't always been this strong in my beliefs. I've grown strong because of what I've learned about other belief systems.

"Lovely grey area ya got there. And exactly where does "being persuasive end" and forcing begin? Is it forcing when I tell you not to come in my house because I don't want your message and you show up next week? That is force imo. So it's all relative. I think I can remember a few persuasive folks through history whose method of persuasion was via the barrel of a gun. They would only get forceful when you resisted their control, but of course the gun is there to remind you"

I think it's pretty obvious where being persuasive ends. "Is it forcing when I tell you not to come in my house because I don't want your message and you show up next week?" yea, I agree that's forceful. If you were to come out and request that I not talk about my beliefs with you anymore, I would stop. The person who who came to your house again the next week did not respect your wishes. You haven't presenting any wishes yet with me ... we've been debating back and forth, basically. If you told me you didn't want to talk about beliefs any more, I would gladly shut up and move on. To this point, I've asked questions, you've answered, you've asked questions, I've answered, you've expressed your beliefs, and I've expressed mine. It's been fine, hasn't it? If you wish that I would just shut up and take my persuasions elsewhere, ask and I will respect that. Respect is the key, like you said.

"Well there's a justification for ethnic cleansing if I ever heard one."

I don't understand what you meant. What did you mean when you said that? What did you think I meant with what I said? hmm .. sorry, in this case, Sarah's confused
ps. um well I uh, am a bit German ...

"Technically, every non-Christian (at least by your standards) religion is already the anti-christ, since they don't accept him as their saviour. Isn't that correct?"

That is correct. Since they are all technically "against" the Christ. There are many hyperboles and metaphors in the book of Revelations, so it's hard to tell, but they seem to point in the direction that the anti-christ will be a person, a leader. Leader of the "world religion" (harmonized) that is ultimately against the Christ. I will check into it more though and try to better understand ...

"Now I'm confused. I thought you said that if anything was wrong in the bible your faith would be shattered and you'd cry. Now you are questioning the truth in the book of Revelations? Is it true or isn't it?"

Dude, stop nit-picking. I said "if the Bible is right in that" to try and make it from your prospective, instead of from mine. I totally believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I know that you do not. Sarah- not questioning the truth in Revelations. Just putting things more from your perspective in order to ask you a question, in which you never did answer. Point number one: I have reason to put my faith in the Bible because it's proven to be true. Point number two: from your perspective (not believing the Bible to be true as I do), wondering what you think. Do you understand now? Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, I can admit that I am being persuasive. (not forceful .. but we've been through that ) Can you honestly say that you're not trying to persuade me in some way? For real? Everything I express about my beliefs, you obviously doubt them and say things that go against them. You ask me questions, just like I do you. You respond to what I say, seemingly in an attempt to show me that I'm wrong in being a dualistic fundamentalist. If you honestly did not want me to take to heart what you say, or honestly weren't trying to persuade me in some way, you wouldn't have responded to anything I've said. Correct me..?

"It appears this thread has digressed to the point of "I am right and this is the only way" conversation. "

So it has. By no means does anyone have to accept that Jesus is the only way. But you all definately knew that, right? I think it might be a good idea to search for the one truth though. I told you ..Jesus, and I expressed why, but why listen to me? You say you're respecting all religious beliefs and it doesn't really matter what you believe ... could it be that you're just avoiding the truth? You don't know (or care) which one is true, so all of them are? There are no truths! Is that True? I think that refutes it all. How can you support relativism with an absolute view? Nobody has to change, probably won't (and i won't and can't force)...but just something to think about.

Again, I'm sorry for shifting the basic theme of this thread. I'll end it here, and if anyone cares to reply, I guess ... in open discussions? Or by e-mail. And if you want me to just not express my beliefs anymore, remember just ask. I will not turn persuasuion into force by not respecting your wish!

<3 *Sarah*
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:43 AM   #97
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

I'm wondering why you all keep refering to ki as being un natural / super natural.
In my opinion it's just as natural as gravity, people just tend to ignor it.

If God created the universe and everything in it, then didn't he create ki too?

"In the begining God created the heavens and the earth" (genesis 1:1) "Behold, it was very good..."

So if god created the universe and everything in the universe and says it's all good, then it must be good. Lucifer has not the power to create.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:56 AM   #98
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Hi everyone,

Once again, I just wanted to remind people that the topic in this thread is the manners in which aikido and Christianity interact, not on Christianity in general. Just thought I'd steer things back on topic.

The topic on "ki power bad for you/evil?" may be found here.

-- Jun

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Old 11-08-2004, 11:59 AM   #99
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Also

"Judge not lest ye be judged..."

People sometimes misinterperate the message of Jesus to be doing away with the old testament when in fact he came to cross the T's and dot the lower case J's.

What he said though was that we will only be judged by the old testament if we ourselves judge by it. We will only be judged in the way that we ourselves judge. I mean, to me that makes perfect sense. What I refuse to believe is that a man who is born in asia who never hears about christ, but leads a good life not judging of others goes to hell for not "following jesus"

Maybe if we all just stopped passing judgement over eachother and what we do we could all get along. But why would anyone want that?

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 11-08-2004, 12:01 PM   #100
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Re: Aikido and being Christian

Sorry Jun I was writing that when you posted. *gets himself back on topic*

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