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Old 06-16-2005, 10:09 AM   #51
senshincenter
 
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Hi Ron,

Or at least Osensei put it the best way. :-) (can't really take credit for it)

take care,
david

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-16-2005, 11:05 AM   #52
"jon"
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

It is of my opinion of WTSO he/she is bashing in a round about way on those who practice post-war Aikido through an experience WTSO had. WTSO is pushing an agenda that isn't mainstream Aikido. I wouldn't take WTSO experience seriously, or with much concern. We all conflict with people on the mat. Personality issues arise, people have different intentions, and a host of other things. You are not going to like everyone you ever come in contact or train with on the mat, deserved or not. It is a part of training. You are also not always going to be convinced of everything you see or experience on the mat, or that of other styles. I personally don't think it is anyone's business what people do on the mat. Each dojo is unique in some respect, interpreting and practicing Aikido as they think best. They should be allowed to do what they do. There is too much Romanticism, sensei worship, and I am better then you ( usually now by keyboard warriors) in the martial arts. There is too much politics, and too much opinion and gossip. Most of all there are far too many cliques and agendas. There are too many people part in the act of sophomoric Internet dojo bashing. Which all points to people who are not focused on Aikido, but rather themselves. If Aikido has a problem, this is surely a consideration and gets my vote.



Dave and Ron,

If you two want to take this thread OT and not make it its own thread, fine by me. If you want to turn this on me by saying I know nothing about Aikido and supporting WTSO that is fine by mean. I can't change your opinions of me by wasting my time on that road. I got other roads to waste time on [friendly chuckle]. Do what you feel you need to do.
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Old 06-16-2005, 11:13 AM   #53
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Already did that. My best to you, Jerry.

Ron

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Old 06-16-2005, 06:21 PM   #54
senshincenter
 
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Quote:
Dave and Ron,

If you two want to take this thread OT and not make it its own thread, fine by me. If you want to turn this on me by saying I know nothing about Aikido and supporting WTSO that is fine by mean. I can't change your opinions of me by wasting my time on that road. I got other roads to waste time on [friendly chuckle]. Do what you feel you need to do.

"Jon,"

I don't think anyone is "turning on you." This is just a discussion - one made up of different points of view. No one is "attacking" anyone. In addition, I would never say you no nothing about Aikido or that whatever you know amounts to nothing.

Please, keep your perspective and please keep your intent to present it as freely as you have been doing. It's great, and it is definitely adding to the thread.

Forums are about people and ideas (mostly ideas) coming together. We don't need to change anyone here, and so we shouldn't feel pressured to do that - nor should we feel a sense of failure when it appears that we are not doing that. We all just share what we share. Sometimes we have things confirmed. Sometimes we come to reflect upon what we know. Sometimes we come to new ways of thinking. Sometimes things go in one ear and out the other. Therefore, I suggest one stick to the grand scheme of things and seek to maintain a healthy distance between one's person and one's ideas as they come to be presented and interpreted on the Internet. This is one way of making sure that trolls don't exist (i.e. do not produce the effect in us by which they are defined) - which seems to be important to you.

Back on topic: Perhaps you can do me the favor of speaking more on the recently raised issue of "rank flashing" as a substitute for clear presentation and/or explanation. I would like to hear your take on that.

Thanks in advance,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-16-2005, 08:56 PM   #55
"Jon"
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Dave,

Gentlemen to Gentlemen, thanks. I better understand where your at. Your explanation and effort has not been wasted.

To honor you request. Flashing rank...a temporary affect or humbling experience depending on perspective, and whether I deserve it or not. It is not something I lose sleep over or allow to disturb me. It is equally important for me to maintain balance and harmony, and not let me ego go unchecked to throw me off in those type of situations. I keep in mind I came to them, they didn't come to me. I keep to that mentally. There is no reason of me to be disrespectful, and forget my manners deserving of someone flashing rank or not if they are hosting instructional seminar. I have to also put myself in their shoes. Doing instructional seminars is a risk that opens you to being challenged and criticized. If you are doing something that is at the center of controversy, or is different, you always have a number of people criticizing you and challenging at any and all opportunities. It is understandable that you may be defensively flashing rank to squelch disruptive trouble makers, and not allow them to derail the class with their antics. It maybe justifiable in some cases to flash rank as a defensive tactic to keep control of the class, and insure a pleasurable experience of the others who are sincere. Point is every story has two sides.

Or if it is a person's personality then it is a temporary manageable experience that should be taken with a grain of salt. If not then the angst person who is put out by the situation so much so they carry it with them must realize they need to work on their ego. I stress that strongly to those who have only been training for a couple of years and where flashed rank by someone who has trained longer. You can't get enough practice in humility.
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:01 PM   #56
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

I will assume WTSO wasn't wearing a white belt. I have seen high ranking Aikido with more experience then I could hope for where white belts even at Aikido seminars of another style.
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Old 06-17-2005, 11:06 PM   #57
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

To be sure, it is indeed wise to remember that there are two sides to everything. However, equally wise, it is important to remember that to every two sides there is but one center. In my opinion, at the center of what may be either an act of foolish pride and/or an act to inspire humility lies a fetishizing of rank. To bypass explanation, or demonstration, and/or any other true testament of one's inner being and thus one's capacity to make sense, and to instead posit rank as the ultimate form of "upaya," is to give to rank an unreasonable and excessive amount of attention or reverence. More than that, because rank is never a true testament of a human's inner being, it is to pretend or to be misled into believing that rank is capable of inspiring proper human virtues (such as humility). At its best then, I would propose that such action never really does inspire a true humility. Rather, its only capacity is to inspire a false humility and/or the kind of "humility" that one actually comes to take pride in (ironically). That is to say, rather than cultivating a true openness of the human soul, the fetishizing of rank can only inspire in us a more close-minded pride. It forces us to come to the world according to categories that are at best completely arbitrary and thus often without merit. If someone has higher rank, we will shut up and listen, but only by the force of an inner repression to gain more pride by feigning humility under these "proper" conditions. If someone has lower rank, that pride goes on to expect the same kind of repression from the person of lower rank -- a kind of forced inner repression that is wrongly motored by a pride in one's "humility." As a result, when such a repression is not present in another, such a fetishization of rank causes us to feel insulted and then equally pressured to inspire or force the same fetishization that we have within in the Other.

On the surface, while the fetishization of rank may appear useful and/or practical, at a spiritual level, at the level of human virtue, it is completely without merit. The kind of "humility" it may produce comes with too huge a price. It is too thoroughly tied to notions of ego, and pride, and also too tied to one's will to power, to provide any of the actual insights that may come to us from being open in both heart and mind. To truly open the heart/mind of another, to truly inspire humility in someone else, their heart/mind must be exposed to a heart/mind that is already thus -- already open, not guarded. Therefore, we cannot offer up as a motivator for humility a fetishization of arbitrary distinctions. When faced with closed-mindedness, we should not inspire or expect more close-mindedness from ourselves and/or the other person. Rather, when faced with closed-mindedness, if the cultivation of humility is truly one's aim, and/or if gaining the benefits of humility are one's aim, then rather than being guarded and/or seeking to be protected by the powers afforded to us by our institutions, we should rather seek to expose ourselves. To do that, we cannot make more of what is around our waist than what is in our bodies, or in our hearts, or in our spirits, or in our souls.

Rank should never be fetishized.

My opinion,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-18-2005, 06:34 PM   #58
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Leave fetishizing for shoes.

Jeanne
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Old 06-18-2005, 07:16 PM   #59
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

lol

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-19-2005, 08:57 PM   #60
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Making people helpless with laughter! My favorite technique! Now you are at my mercy!

Jeanne
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Old 06-19-2005, 09:24 PM   #61
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

I guess that is true - especially if you got some spiked heels on. :-)

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-19-2005, 11:58 PM   #62
Janet Rosen
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

a couple of us have been threatening to attend post-seminar dinners in heels, hakama, and corset. hasn't happened yet....hmmm...maybe the next aikido-l or aikiweb seminar?

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-20-2005, 08:17 AM   #63
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

In These shoes? I don't think so...

Ron

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Old 06-20-2005, 08:00 PM   #64
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Ron, we need to get you a corset...

Jeanne
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Old 06-20-2005, 08:04 PM   #65
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Quote:
Jeanne Shepard wrote:
Ron, we need to get you a corset...

Jeanne
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:10 AM   #66
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Hey! I'm not THAT chubby! [sucking in gut]...

R

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Old 03-02-2006, 12:11 AM   #67
"Lawrence Brindisi"
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Smile Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Greetings.

it's nice to know that there are critical students in aikido. but no matter, just remember that combat effectiveness of aikido can not be measured even in actual combat. effectiveness of aikido can be felt by the PERSON himself. why? cuz i've been stuying aikido for 10 years now and STILL haven't been to any scuffles... really. but before that i've been a 'bad boy' so to speak.

anyways, bottom line is: remember the principle of the three (3) warriors, the good, the real, and the true. and once you've found out its essence, the effectiveness of aikido is clearly seen.

"let's hold hands and together climb mt. fuji"
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:54 PM   #68
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
a couple of us have been threatening to attend post-seminar dinners in heels, hakama, and corset. hasn't happened yet....hmmm...maybe the next aikido-l or aikiweb seminar?
How do I get an invite to that dinner?

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 03-03-2006, 03:27 PM   #69
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

"Shut up and train!" and then have a beer (or the beverage of your choice) afterwards. Isn't that what aikido is all about?

If an aikido technique is effective, it can be demonstrated to be effective. Period. No ifs, ands or buts. It either works, or it doesn't. Understanding HOW it works is another topic for discussion.... but you really have to feel the technique, and the attack, to be a part of the conversation.

If you don't understand the demonstration, ask respectfully and politely for personal instruction. If, even after personal instruction, you still don't get it -- shut up and train, something else is coming along sooner or later that you WILL get.

Akira Tohei once said, "When the fruit is ripe, you can eat it."


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

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Old 03-08-2006, 11:48 AM   #70
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Wink Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

http://i2.tinypic.com/qzhymg.jpg
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Old 03-08-2006, 12:50 PM   #71
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido


Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-09-2006, 07:14 AM   #72
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Freaky! Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesnt work when the chips are down.
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Old 03-09-2006, 07:19 AM   #73
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Quote:
Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesnt work when the chips are down.
So....... go train in something else.
Mary
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Old 03-09-2006, 03:19 PM   #74
Aiki LV
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

Quote:
Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesn't work when the chips are down.
I have no problem with people having a different opinion, but this has to be one of the most over simplified statements I've ever heard. I think it is pretty obvious what you're intention is here. If I was someone who had never trained in aikido before that is what I would say too out of pure ignorance. Anyone who has been chucked on their butt by someone who knows what they are doing would disagree. I'd like to thank you for that over simplified and purposefully degrading post. Even though I don't always see eye to eye with other martial artists I would not go so far as to be intentionally rude or insulting about the art they practice. I think you show your true character when you say
Quote:
No one cares what principles you think you are developing.
See that is what separates people like you, you might not care about principles both physically and otherwise, but many of us do. I'm sorry you have such a large chip on your shoulder. GOOD LUCK TO YOU!
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Old 03-09-2006, 03:33 PM   #75
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Frustrated by unconvincing aikido

I should hate myself for responding to this, but...

Quote:
Here's the thing, The telegraphed lunge punch defended by a wrist grab looks pathetic to anyone that has ever been in a real fight. No one cares what principles you think you are developing, the stuff doesnt work when the chips are down.
uh huh...yeah...that's why you are posting annonymously, right? It's because of those 'lunge punches'...

Ron Tisdale
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